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XLR Eight
Viziam
Posted - 2009.02.16 06:49:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Leya Marcsson

could you please think about a more simpler & functional approach? how about something like this: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0902/Eve_Fitting.pdf

even if you stick with your circle stuff: please do not add another way to brows the hangar/container - if you think the current way is bad (and there could be some reasons for that) redesign the current and integrate it into the fitting screen.


+1 support for this man's UI design instead of CCP's

Hu Lacour
HeadQuarter
Posted - 2009.02.16 08:08:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: Hu Lacour on 16/02/2009 09:11:27
Fendahl, I think fitting screen is at the moment amazing, but I have small little suggestion to make it work better.

Currently, depending on resolution, it overlaps with station right side bar, what IF, current fitting screen gets pushed to next patch and whole in station view gets redone with same design as there would be more time?

There is no point that bar takes so much space currently from in station view when you could design it bit more stylish, like buttons on row at top right and agents at right bottom and so on. (example all the stuff is at top and bottom and not taking space from right side) This is however only and example and I believe ui designers can come up with better idea :)

(Some of the people like rought designs, I'm not one of them, so thats why I think the idea behind new fitting is so great. And it looks awesome at wide screens :)

ps. laptop people use 1280x800 resolution

Haral Reimo
Posted - 2009.02.16 10:09:00 - [153]
 

Someone please take away the UI team's widescreen monitors. They appear to have forgotten that 4:3 is still the standard layout

GyokZoli
Caldari
Sanctum of Citizens
Posted - 2009.02.16 10:59:00 - [154]
 

I am sorry to say that but this new design is awful.Sad

Apertotes
Posted - 2009.02.16 11:19:00 - [155]
 

hi, since you are into redesigning the fitting screen, could please consider making it so that we can somehow see real module's attributes when fitted? i know it is already like that to some extent, but for example, drone attributes do not reflect skill bonuses.

but most important, there is no stacking penalty indication, and given the lack of proper oficial information regarding those, it would be very nice if you could somehow indicate the penalties each module is applied.

also, although not as important, i would love if each attibute could be read as a product of a base attribute times the different bonuses and penalties, be it from skills, modules, implants, rigs, fleets, EW, etc.

for example:

Speed: 353.68 m/s = 220 [base] x 1.25 [navigation skill] x 1.125 [overdrive II] x (1 + 0.0725x87.5%) [auxiliary thruster I rig with a stacking penalty] x (1 + 1.35x1.25) [afterburner II with claymore on gang] x 0.4 [stasis webifier II]

of course, only the numbers would be shown, on different colors, and when hovering the mouse over each number, you would get the explanation.

Linistitul
Posted - 2009.02.16 11:48:00 - [156]
 

First, i would like to say you have done a very good job!

Now, my input:
- can we have 3|2|1 (top, middle, bottom) slot arrangement, on the right side of the gate, rather then 1|3|2 (bottom, top, middle) as it is right now?
- can we have readouts for CPU and PG next to the capacitor readout, in the right side table?
- also it will be helpful to have some info about the cargo bay and drone bay capacity.

The goal is to have less head movement when fitting and looking at the ship stats Wink
Thank you!

Tessen
Stellar Tide
Posted - 2009.02.16 11:48:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Tessen on 16/02/2009 11:57:27

- Need Less transparency (cannot read stats when other windows are behind).
- A close button (yes I know there is several way to close it) but nevetheless need a close button.
- On curent fitting window, you can move/release a module everywhere on the window. This have the effect to fit the module. This feture is missing now.
- Drone bay/Cargo capacity/space available.

EDIT : forgot :
+1 Dr Resheph

EDIT 2 : When will you alow players to make their own UI as in 1st Everquest and some other MMOs ?

Vir Hellnamin
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.02.16 13:14:00 - [158]
 


Now that you're "fixing" fitting window UI transparent and messy, would it possible to get the Load Station Environment toggle in ESC-settings finally NOT to render station environment when NOT toggled. Would help a bit to create even-coloured background for that picture-over-stargate-ship-spin-monster you have just created.


Kralin Ignatov
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Posted - 2009.02.16 14:43:00 - [159]
 

Edited by: Kralin Ignatov on 16/02/2009 14:46:46
Good:
1. The load/save feature
Bad:
1. Size - have to minimize all windows every time i want to fit a ship
2. Transparency - Hard to see modules / information with no contrast.
3. Inability to move - Coinciding with point 1, I don't always want to see all of the fitting screen, nor do I always want it directly in the middle of the screen. I.E. - in mission vs. Serpentis, I will use the fitting screen to check my lock range. I wouldn't do that with this fitting screen.

Summary
TBH, I personally think the current (QR version) fitting screen is quite fine. It might not look pretty, but if functions as well as it needs to. I think the fitting screen should be of low priority anyways, since a majority of Eve Subscribers use EFT to fit their ships anyhow.

Perhaps give us the choice of which one to use?

Genya Arikaido
Posted - 2009.02.16 15:51:00 - [160]
 

For the love of GOD, PLEASE add a drone control range indicator on this thing. I'm sick of having to guess at what it is and going to hunt down a belt rat to test it.

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.02.16 15:58:00 - [161]
 

So this fitting window is going to be the only option we get?

its functionality is lacking and it renders all options on eve window size defunked apart from full screen. great good ccp, way to make something that works fine a hard and problematic experiance, not to mention what you will do for teh new players, high slot whats that???

Aeo IV
Amarr
Xomic OmniCorporation
Posted - 2009.02.16 17:58:00 - [162]
 

You know what ****es me off?

They could have easily used those extra rig slots on the non-messed up panel for subsystem placement.

Bottom line- this is bad, I'm glad you're investing time in trying to improve the game, but this isn't an improvement, drop it, modify the current one and leave it at that, or else someone is going to rebuild EFT version 3.0 such that we can build set ups in EFT and just port them into the game.

And that, sir, is a very bad thing.

sarako
Posted - 2009.02.16 18:09:00 - [163]
 

why a circle and not something more resembling a ships distribution systems?

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.02.16 18:22:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Aeo IV
You know what ****es me off?

They could have easily used those extra rig slots on the non-messed up panel for subsystem placement.

Bottom line- this is bad, I'm glad you're investing time in trying to improve the game, but this isn't an improvement, drop it, modify the current one and leave it at that, or else someone is going to rebuild EFT version 3.0 such that we can build set ups in EFT and just port them into the game.

And that, sir, is a very bad thing.


i wish someone would do that with EFT 3.0, cos if i have to use that pile of s**t all teh dam time my eye will bleed it hurts them so dam much

Dari Anoh
Amarr
Anoh Shavar
Posted - 2009.02.16 18:26:00 - [165]
 

Very, very cool new fitting screen. And loving the ability to load and save setups. *does the happy dance*

d0nt
Posted - 2009.02.16 18:49:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: d0nt on 16/02/2009 19:07:18
I liked what we have at this moment, but can you add optional switching of fitting window old or new?

Just because i like 'windows' mode...

Please add an opportunity to me to choose between a new and old fitting window !Neutral

p.s. or not include other windows to new fitting window.

StonerPhReaK
Nasgul Collective
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.02.16 18:56:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: StonerPhReaK on 16/02/2009 19:03:53
Need to integrate EFT!
Also the only things that have a visual are guns.Why zoom in on something that only changes when you put a different gun on it?Would like to see textures for launchers,Salvagers,Tractors,NOS,Basically anyhting you would "See" when we put it on the ship....We havent ever seen missile bays,Salvaging and tractoring from an ivisible part of the ship seems just an aftethought.It looks good.For what though?Everything still looks the same.Would be much different if you could actually decide where you want to place a turret,Then you would need the close zoom.But as it stands nothing visible has changed.

Khana Loaris
Seidh Technologies
Posted - 2009.02.16 19:57:00 - [168]
 

Looks good - mostly. Typically though anything like this which concerns graphics will be subject to many different perspectives.
Usability will be the main key though and unfortunately I can't access SiSi at the mo to check.

Immediate thoughts based on the look and feel:
* not convinced about the placement of the turret/bay indicators,. they're kinda lost outside the ring, they need to be integrated more.
* likewise the PG / CPU & Cal indicators are split and demoted to numbers outside the ring - needs eye candy and a more harmonious integration
* the slot layout seems a bit weird with low, high, mid running clockwise - why not low, mid, high? seems more logical
* stats panel... capacitor section looks, well a bit bare - why have the cap ring at all? it takes up a lot of space and serves no real purpose. make it a bar to reduce space?
* stats panel... resistance colour bars look too flat. a boundary box around the individual bars will also help visually reference the 20%, 70% full rather then the current almost arbitrary sized block

umm... thats about it for now. I'm sure I'll have more when I get into the real thing...


Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.02.16 21:24:00 - [169]
 

I'd suggest the ability to line the mods up in 3 circles like we are used to... like you can move the various toolbars around in word, excel and most other tool-software.

Graphics are nice though - just hard to get a good fast overview about the current fittings

Pinky

Ford Chicago
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.02.16 23:11:00 - [170]
 

All of the functional problems with the new designed were immediately documented as soon as this was on SISI. Why does the dev blog not address any of those comments? You could have saved the first 10 pages of this thread that are filled with exactly the same issues the community noted on day 1.

Function is far more important than form. Yes, the new UI is pretty. No, it is not usable. Usability is supposed to be the number one priority for a user interface.

CCP Fendahl

Posted - 2009.02.16 23:31:00 - [171]
 

Thanks for the feedback so far! As I mentioned in the blog, the fitting screen hasn't been implemented fully. We currently have a list of over 50 issues (many of which you rightly have mentioned) that need to be addressed before we release. The item selection panel in particular is very far from done. Essentially what's in the client now is something that someone decided to implement while we were still designing the thing and it hasn't been touched since. As alluded to in the blog, the idea is to have a unified view of the hangers, with ship, cargo containers etc. working like folder, but with filters on top for searching and selecting different types of modules. Progress on the implementation side has been slow lately, but things have picked up again today and we're starting to see improvements. The fitting screen is now moveable and we have just got PIP working (though the viewport still needs to be trimmed to fit the circle in the middle. On the design front we have been iterating on the layout based on your feedback. In latest mock-up, which looks promising, we have arranged the high-med-low slots top, right, bottom as many suggested and rearranged the readouts such that the CPU and powergrid readouts are stacked above each other so it's easier to reference. Naturally we'll continue iterating on it, and hopefully it'll still make sense when we get back to it in the morning. Wink

We're still discussing whether to show the sub-system slots for non T3 ship. The arguments for, are that the fitting screen would show the possibilities even if you're in an Ibis: up to 8 high/med/low, 3 rig slots and 4 sub-system slots, and that the fitting screen should be consistent regardless of the ship youíre in (consistency is a good usability principle in general). The downside is the extra space needed, which is a problem especially in lower resolutions since the icons become quite small.

As some of you have mentioned, the motivation to go with a new layout for the modules was primarily is primarily to make the fitting screen more visually appealing. The t3ch team requested the ability to see the ship as you fit it, so we got the opportunity to look at the fitting screen because it fitted within the scope of the team's goals. Another advantage of the circular layout is that it enables us to use radial graphs to display various information about modules in a way that makes it easy to compare modules against each other (e.g. bar chart of CPU usage). Unfortunately this has been cut from the release, but it seems likely we'll be able to look into it again for one of the Apocrypha point releases along with a truckload of other things. Smile

As for saving fittings, last I spoke with the t3ch team, the idea was to store all fittings on the server. This unfortunately means some limits are needed to protect our DB, but even so you should be able to store about 100 personal fittings. The fittings can also be manually imported and exported via YAML, so it should be easy to transfer collections of fittings. There are currently no plans for alliance fittings or direct API support for import/export (but those would be very nice features). Fittings can be info linked by dragging the fitting from the fitting management window to the chat (or eve mail). Clicking the link opens up an info window with a (custom description of the fitting) and a listing of the modules etc. The fitting can also be saved from the info window.

CCP Fendahl

Posted - 2009.02.16 23:32:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Gumpy Nighthawk
With the older build there was also the window with effective hitpoints, not sure it's still there with the current build, but just assuming it's still there, but that effective hitpoint number is just an addition of your armor with any extra armor booster, but not taking any resists in account.
The effective HP seem to be calculated incorrectly. It should be calculated from the minimum hardness (essentially using the worst possible resistances), since this gives you a hard lower bound on the effective hardness. This is IMO the best way of calculating the effective HP since it can reliably be used to optimize your effective HP without ending up with resistance holes. We're planning a lot more features in this direction (sustainable absorption ratio etc), but they have unfortunately been cut for now.

Originally by: Aldiree Antima
Question: Will there be a overhaul for the asset management system? The methods of presentation data is suboptimal at best and sometimes really annoying.
As much as I would love to, we need to focus our resources, since fixing the UI is too large a task for a single expansion (with the amount of people we have). Ultimately we have to prioritize, usually by choosing a couple themes that set the scope for the expansion.

Originally by: Gnulpie
Can a corp member fit ships inside corp hangar if there are the modules present in that hangar (eventually point to some other hanger where the modules are also), assumed that person has the access roles to access all that stuff in corp hangar?
Essentially the ships are fitted as usual, so you'd need to take the ship from the corp hanger, fit it as normal and then put it back.

Originally by: Vir Hellnami
Is there any way to have a version that would not show the [...] view of my ship in the docks? Could this be made as toggle able, since UI-space is valuable when fitting a ship
It's certainly possible, though it's not currently planned for the expansion. If it's still something a lot of you guys want after we have worked out the new fitting screen, it's certainly something we would look into. We want more awesome, not less! Very Happy

Originally by: Shalmaneser ili
Add a "100%" mark to the PG/CPU bars? Maybe even add 10% or 25% increments to have a chance at telling what value they are showing at all? Even better, have the current percentage shown at the end of the bar - you could even make it go red if it goes over 100%, showing a red (pulsating) 100% or >100%? [...]
Very nice suggestions. Adding tick marks on the gauges is definitely needed since it's otherwise really hard to tell where they end.

Originally by: Chris Stormrider
I usually log in from an eeepc with 1024x600 resolution (though I doubt most people care if that's a problem and I'm not sure if I'll be able to play using premium light, no-one knows for sure, right now).
Good point. I'll look into support for 1024x600.


Originally by: Dr Resheph
20. It's completely out of place with the rest of the UI, and whether or not you intend to change the rest in time, the fact remains you have two different UI designs and behaviors for the duration instead of one logical theme and set of behaviors.
You bring up a lot of valid points on the various issues with the fitting screen. I have added the ones we missed in the first review to our list of issues, and we'll be going over them as best as we can to address them. As for #20, are you referring to the fact that the new fitting screen is an overlay, rather than a window proper? Also, are you referring to the non-standard style for the expandable panels? In any case, awesome list, cheers!

CCP Fendahl

Posted - 2009.02.16 23:32:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Goonda
[...]If I had any say about the issue, I would redesign the central (circle) portion of this new layout. I would move the hi/mid/low slots to concentric quarter circles (similar to the old layout), so that all 3 sets of slots are basically where the high slots are now. Also, move the CPU/PG/Calibration/Hardpoint readouts to the statistics panel or place them over top of the ship display window. I would leave the rig and T3 slots where they are.
Some very good points. I quite like your idea for the layout, and I'll discuss it tomorrow with the others (though at this point I'm not sure if we'll be able to change the design to that extent).

Originally by: Smagd
There's a reason there was a switch to do skip this for the star map, which now opens instantly... It's visually nice, but it slows down actual work.
Thanks for clarifying this! Until now I thought people were commenting that the style of the animation was lame, rather than the delay being a usability issue. Consider it added to the epic list.

Originally by: Grimpak
also, your guardian setup are fail.
Well, it won us the game design vs. EVE TV match a few tournaments ago (7 Purifiers, 2 Guardians and 1 Curse). HUN Reloaded won the tournament with an almost identical win-sauce setup. YARRRR!!

Originally by: Imhothar Xarodit
On the western hemisphere, most important information should be in specific corners, from most important to least important: top-left, top-right, bottom-left, bottom-right (hint: reading a book). I would classify the ship statistics as more important than the item list. <Showing market groups, then list the modules inside the ring>
The workflow was actually designed around this: select modules from the left, fit them in the center and observe the effect to the right.

Your method for selecting modules certainly seems quite juicy and it's definitely worth looking into. One potential problem with this approach is that it might be fiddly to navigate between containers, depending on how it is implemented, but it could probably be worked out. We'd also need to figure out a good method for bringing up the menu without making it hard to use for the lower slots (in case there isn't enough room for the menu below the slot).

Originally by: MotherMoon
did you see my blueprint filter window idea where everything behind the circle is blue and shows a vector type graphic in real time of what your seeing?
Sounds good. Link plix!

Originally by: Val Strommer
can you include a damage per second (dps) statistic on the fitting screen.
The original plan was to simulate the fittings, meaning you could turn modules on/off and overload them to see the effects on DPS, effective HP, absorption ratio etc. both via graphs and numbers (i.e. you wouldn't have to undock just to check your active resistances and cap sustainability). Unfortunately the decision was made to cut this feature due to the lack of time, which made me a very sad panda indeed. Sad But hopefully we can address this in a point release (I'll certainly be bugging people about it until they give in).

Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku
Allowing weapons and drone grouping while docked would be EXCELLENT.
Weapon groups can be defined by shift dragging, just like before (though it isnít exactly user friendly). Ideally one should also be able to configure the hotkeys for the different modules (like in space), but it was unfortunately decided it was out of scope for now. Being able to define drone control groups would be awesome as well!

Originally by: Cedric Diggory
The coloured resistance bars on the right look a little "tacky"; perhaps some texturing on the coloured bar itself would make it look a little more slick?
Nice idea, we'll look into it :)

CCP Fendahl

Posted - 2009.02.16 23:33:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Llaneza
If EVE is getting 'picture in picture' capability, how about upgrading the 'zoom' feature to be a real render and not just zooming a bitmap and getting a zoomed view that's all pixelated
PIP basically gives us the ability to have multiple viewport on screen at the same time. For instance it would be possible to have multiple camera views of the in-space scene if we wanted (say, target cameras, missile cameras, tactical view), or we could have 3D models in show info for ships, or we could have 3D mini maps. The plan for the fitting screen PIP is to have full camera control for the scene, so you would be able to rotate the ship and zoom just like in space.

Originally by: FireFoxx80
> Oh, and it would be great if subsystems were assigned when you went into ship fitting screen, rather than when you first unpackage the ship.
I completely agree with this. The sub-system selection step when you assemble a T3 ship is rather odd. I'll go bug the t3ch team about it yet again! Wink

Originally by: permion
Can you please add drone statistics, well atleast drone movement range. Pretty please with extra nagginess on top.
It's on our todo list to have a panel, "offense and support", listing this sort of information (as well as DPS and remote rep capabilities etc). At this point I'm not sure if it'll make it in, though, but we'll see!

Originally by: Terianna Eri
Do not display agility; display align time instead.
The problem with this is that while we both know that agility changes the align time, there would be nothing telling new players about the relationship. Agility also changes the acceleration of the ship, which is also relevant. I agree, though, that having the align time shown would be extremely useful. We were planning to include it, but unfortunately it got cut. Sad

Originally by: Hu Lacour
Currently, depending on resolution, it overlaps with station right side bar, what IF, current fitting screen gets pushed to next patch and whole in station view gets redone with same design as there would be more time?
I would love to revise the station panel, but whether I get time to do it depends on the priorities for the next expansion. We got the opportunity to look at the fitting screen only because it fitted within the scope of team t3ch's goals.

Originally by: Apertotes
but most important, there is no stacking penalty indication, and given the lack of proper oficial information regarding those, it would be very nice if you could somehow indicate the penalties each module is applied. [...] also, although not as important, i would love if each attibute could be read as a product of a base attribute times the different bonuses and penalties, be it from skills, modules, implants, rigs, fleets, EW, etc.
In my grand plan of things, the idea is to eventually add this type of info to the info windows, along with other relevant data, such as graphs. Realistically it's probably going to be a while yet, before we see it in game, though.


...

OMG TL;DR

Please keep the awesome feedback coming! I'm compiling lists of issues and features from the forums, so if you have concerns about the fitting screen, don't hesitate to let me know. The goal is to get an improved fitting screen that (almost) everyone is happy with!

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.02.16 23:42:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: H Zebra on 16/02/2009 23:43:20
ok as you (ccp) are reading this, can we get teh option to use teh old one?. even with out all the new jazzy features it was way way more usible that the new one imo

Henry Loenwind
Gallente
Area 42
Posted - 2009.02.17 00:27:00 - [176]
 

What about this design:

fitting1.jpg

(Yes, it's drawn without skill, incomplete, and out of proportion---but the idea should be clear.)

Henry Loenwind
Gallente
Area 42
Posted - 2009.02.17 00:40:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: CCP Fendahl
The workflow was actually designed around this: select modules from the left, fit them in the center and observe the effect to the right.


I think you just hit a trap. For right-handed users this is the wrong way. It should be manipulate on the right, observe on the left.

GUI design 101: The virtual lines "user's eyes -> screen" and "user's mouse hand -> mouse cursor" should not cross.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.02.17 01:52:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Do not display agility; display align time instead.
The problem with this is that while we both know that agility changes the align time, there would be nothing telling new players about the relationship. Agility also changes the acceleration of the ship, which is also relevant. I agree, though, that having the align time shown would be extremely useful. We were planning to include it, but unfortunately it got cut. Sad

Unfortunately "agility" is a pretty meaningless stat - it doesn't mean anything until you multiply it by mass which means it's not even good for determining which ships are more agile than others, at a glance.

Red 7
Posted - 2009.02.17 08:08:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: CCP Fendahl

As for saving fittings, last I spoke with the t3ch team, the idea was to store all fittings on the server. This unfortunately means some limits are needed to protect our DB, but even so you should be able to store about 100 personal fittings. The fittings can also be manually imported and exported via YAML, so it should be easy to transfer collections of fittings. There are currently no plans for alliance fittings or direct API support for import/export (but those would be very nice features). Fittings can be info linked by dragging the fitting from the fitting management window to the chat (or eve mail). Clicking the link opens up an info window with a (custom description of the fitting) and a listing of the modules etc. The fitting can also be saved from the info window.


The community has put a lot of time, effort and infrastructure into tools to fill this gap over the years - don't slap them in the face by not taking this opportunity to provide a nice clean API to work with.

CCP Fendahl

Posted - 2009.02.17 11:56:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Red 7
The community has put a lot of time, effort and infrastructure into tools to fill this gap over the years - don't slap them in the face by not taking this opportunity to provide a nice clean API to work with.
How is this a slap in the face? You will be able to import and export fittings, just not via the API, for now. As far as I know, the API only allows users to export data from the DB, not import to it, due to security concerns.


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