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Samuroka
Posted - 2009.02.11 02:18:00 - [1]
 

While I understand why your ending support for linux, I have an idea. I'm sure it's already been suggested, but why dont you guys (CCP) drop the linux client and offer support to get EVE running under WINE?

It wont require the entire recreation of a game, just a few people who try to help troubleshoot why the game wont work under WINE like it would in a real windows environment (if said problems are encountered). No massive dev team, just a support team, somewhere between 5-15 strong.

It pains me to see a game like this move away from Linux, but it is totally understandable. But rather than abandoning us, just offer WINE support.

-Samuroka

Ancy Denaries
Posted - 2009.02.11 07:41:00 - [2]
 

They cannot support Wine for several reasons:

1. EVE is constantly changing, so is Wine. Keeping them both synced would be a lot of work.

2. They cannot distribute Wine for legal reasons. Wine supplies Microsoft DLLs which CCP cannot distribute without getting sued.

3. Wine is an open source community, not a company. CCP cannot demand deadlines and set demands on a community, and as such, cannot promise their customers squat.


The above are the reasons that they initially went with TransGaming instead.

Adel Sorra
Posted - 2009.02.11 09:29:00 - [3]
 

thread locking in 5, 4, 3, 2...

Rolling Eyes

Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2009.02.11 11:42:00 - [4]
 

Number 2 is just wrong. Wine provides replacement libs that have been coded according to the API specs. They are not M$ libraries.

Codeweavers can fulfil both 1 and 3.


Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2009.02.11 14:35:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Sevarus James on 11/02/2009 14:37:24
Gotta second the #2 counter. WINE does NOT HAVE ANY MS ANYTHING. The api's are specific to wine and mimic ms libraries, sometimes even better than ms libraries do.

Also, CCP went with transgaming because TG was WILLING to sign the agreements that CCP wanted. They DID go to codeweavers and were turned down by them as codeweavers didn't feel that they could do what CCP wanted. There was nothing else to it. I got that from the horses mouth back when this stuff was being sussed out prior to announcements over a year ago. Lets' not speculate as "truth", eh?


Also, Samuroka, learn to check threads before posting eh? This technically should get locked as it is being discussed (per CCP) in the top forum section.

Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2009.02.11 14:51:00 - [6]
 

What CCP choose to do doesn't change the fact that Codeweavers is capable taking the job commercially.


Verite Rendition
Caldari
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2009.02.11 19:55:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Solbright
What CCP choose to do doesn't change the fact that Codeweavers is capable taking the job commercially.


Codeweavers has, to my knowledge, refused to take any game jobs thus far. They may be capable, but they don't want the job.

Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2009.02.11 23:43:00 - [8]
 

We have no idea what was said back then. "Refused" is a very relative term when it comes to contracts. Transgaming prolly just needed the work more than Codeweavers did.

CCP and Codeweavers can still agree on future terms.


Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2009.02.12 01:55:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Solbright
We have no idea what was said back then. "Refused" is a very relative term when it comes to contracts. Transgaming prolly just needed the work more than Codeweavers did.

CCP and Codeweavers can still agree on future terms.




I DO know what was said back then Sol. Codeweavers REJECTED CCP's contract. Simple as that.
The Dev that I was in contact with (no longer with CCP) regarding this stuff let me know how this deal was done.

As for Codeweavers, they do NOT sign contracts with game companies. They list what is "supported" on their end on their site. This is in no way a legal binding 'anything' other than a listing of what works, and what they pay attention to, to ensure that it continues to work on the crossover platform.

Wine is a moving target. EVE is a moving target. To sign an agreement as Transgaming did, would be more than most small companies would be able to keep up with. THIS, more than anything else was the largest problem with the "official client". Transgaming promised xyz based on things CCP told them. At Fanfest, the devs talked about this. Neither company REALLY knew what that kind of support would actually entail, and in the case of the linux client, it bit them in the ass...hard.

CCP looked at the dwindling numbers of downloads and usage statistics regarding this client, and bottom line is it wasn't a money maker.
That their "supported" client was so sub-par to wine + eve (win) sent most of us packing from the supported version as we just wanted to play without the glitches and issues associated from that mess.

All CCP need do is "smoke test" the wine + eve (win) client. A tiny bit of feedback here or bug reports submitted to wine.org, and things should continue just fine.



Krissam
Orange Orchestra
Posted - 2009.02.12 05:34:00 - [10]
 

Tbh, the best thing they could do IMHO, would be to hire a guy (or perhaps a few) to make patches for wine so we can get wine up to plat rating in the appdb
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=9971

Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2009.02.12 09:35:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Krissam
Tbh, the best thing they could do IMHO, would be to hire a guy (or perhaps a few) to make patches for wine so we can get wine up to plat rating in the appdb
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=9971


Personally I wouldn't bank on CCP hiring or "adding" anyone at this point. The economic situation in Iceland is an absolute disaster.

I have it on good authority that CCP has lost several developers due to the crash of the krona and that others being recruited are demanding payment in euros...which makes sense considering the krona's value is negligible at this point.

What we can hope is that we in the linux community can take the bull by the horns and provide the support necessary to wine.org/crossover to bug report the issues as best we can, and hopefully CCP will give us a means of feedback, however "unofficial" to them so that we as a community can continue to play EVE as well.

After all, our money is just as good as anyone else's money, and more is better, especially these days.


mrkaczor
Minmatar
Grey Toxic Sword
Inver Brass
Posted - 2009.02.12 10:30:00 - [12]
 

"Personally I wouldn't bank on CCP hiring or "adding" anyone at this point. The economic situation in Iceland is an absolute disaster."

I personal don't agree, EVE players pay in dollars, so when dollar is stronger and you live in Iceland you have more money to spend. Another thing is that crisis on Iceland will give you opportunity to hire programmers cheaper there.

Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2009.02.12 10:53:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Sevarus James
Originally by: Solbright
We have no idea what was said back then. "Refused" is a very relative term when it comes to contracts. Transgaming prolly just needed the work more than Codeweavers did.

CCP and Codeweavers can still agree on future terms.

I DO know what was said back then Sol. Codeweavers REJECTED CCP's contract.

I shouldn't have said that part as it wasn't relevant.

What is relevant is contracts can be modified to suit both parties.


Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2009.02.12 11:35:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: mrkaczor
"Personally I wouldn't bank on CCP hiring or "adding" anyone at this point. The economic situation in Iceland is an absolute disaster."

I personal don't agree, EVE players pay in dollars, so when dollar is stronger and you live in Iceland you have more money to spend. Another thing is that crisis on Iceland will give you opportunity to hire programmers cheaper there.


You can disagree all you want. I've talked to people. Several folks have left recently because of the krona issues, and what I said, I stand by from folks I've chatted with who are in the know, so to speak.

Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2009.02.12 16:33:00 - [15]
 

CCP is at present unable to offer any kind of official support for something that's not within their control.

WINE is not within their control.

Heck, even the late official client was not, and that was exactly what nailed the coffin in place.

About developers leaving or wanting salary in euros: tough beans. They have/had talented people, and all of sudden what currency they paid them in is worth the same of a mud omelette. Of course said talented boys wanted greener pastures. It's understandable as much as it's understandable the dropping of an official linux client.

That's what they get for refusing to join the EU currency. For further reference, see UK. Cool

Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2009.02.13 01:44:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Solbright on 13/02/2009 01:44:48
Originally by: Katrina Bekers
WINE is not within their control.

Codeweavers can do the job.

Quote:
Heck, even the late official client was not, and that was exactly what nailed the coffin in place.

Well, if CCP had that in mind they'd have used OpenGL from the start.

Why they didn't is still a mystery to me. Since OpenGL was by far the superior and more usable and stable product back then. Direct3D was this schizo moving target that you had to ship the exact version used with each game release.

Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2009.02.13 03:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Solbright
Edited by: Solbright on 13/02/2009 01:44:48
Originally by: Katrina Bekers
WINE is not within their control.

Codeweavers can do the job.

Quote:
Heck, even the late official client was not, and that was exactly what nailed the coffin in place.

Well, if CCP had that in mind they'd have used OpenGL from the start.

Why they didn't is still a mystery to me. Since OpenGL was by far the superior and more usable and stable product back then. Direct3D was this schizo moving target that you had to ship the exact version used with each game release.



Fast answer: 95% of all games being released at that time were primarily dx based. The only real exceptions to the rule was Carmack's bunch in Texas with IDSoftware, and the Unreal Tournament folks. That's it.

CCP also, you must remember, had NO prior game building experience.

Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:10:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sevarus James
The only real exceptions to the rule was Carmack's bunch in Texas with IDSoftware, and the Unreal Tournament folks. That's it.

"That's it"? Shocked

The two of them basically defined online FPS (where "no lag" really means it) and hi-perf 3D engines for around two decades.

Given the choice, I'd listen to Carmack's point of view on graphic and network tools for the job.

But I may be naive, and CCP with all the Microsoft hive infection running on its machines and - as you correctly say - no prior experience in building games, may knew better than good ole John. Neutral

Ah, well. Rolling Eyes

Mamede
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:10:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ancy Denaries
They cannot support Wine for several reasons:

1. EVE is constantly changing, so is Wine. Keeping them both synced would be a lot of work.

Wine folks seem to be handling it with no pay...Why couldn't a small team in CCP do it?

2. They cannot distribute Wine for legal reasons. Wine supplies Microsoft DLLs which CCP cannot distribute without getting sued.

Not true, as it was said in this thread.

3. Wine is an open source community, not a company. CCP cannot demand deadlines and set demands on a community, and as such, cannot promise their customers squat.

That's why a team for CCP would do the trick.

The above are the reasons that they initially went with TransGaming instead.

In my opinion Transgamming somehow lost its edge. I remember when "winex" came, I bought a subcription when I saw the product; however somehow I had the impression(and only impression) they tried to tune their software so tight to somegames they "forgot" to check winehq code..But that's just "my" impression as a former sad client, I don't really know what really happened.

Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2009.02.20 11:16:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Katrina Bekers
Originally by: Sevarus James
The only real exceptions to the rule was Carmack's bunch in Texas with IDSoftware, and the Unreal Tournament folks. That's it.

"That's it"? Shocked

The two of them basically defined online FPS (where "no lag" really means it) and hi-perf 3D engines for around two decades.

Given the choice, I'd listen to Carmack's point of view on graphic and network tools for the job.

But I may be naive, and CCP with all the Microsoft hive infection running on its machines and - as you correctly say - no prior experience in building games, may knew better than good ole John. Neutral

Ah, well. Rolling Eyes


Yeah. I hear ya. but my "that's it" holds true. They DID have the FPS market, BUT, in the sheer number of titles on the shelves at the time, they were in a teeny tiny minority even at that point. Carmack made a big stink about DX vs. OpenGL in response to the stupid game dev 'herd' mentality toward DX and windows. At the time Carmack was evangelizing, OpenGL was the better option for 3d gaming. He wasn't griping about platform by the way, he was talking specifically to performance, feature set and coding ease.

Since those heady good ol' days, he has changed his tune. Much more recently he was asked about dx vs. opengl and he indicated that dx was significantly easier to code for than in earlier DX versions and had achieved good feature parity with openGL. The drawback now is one that is fairly simple. DX ties you to windows. With Apple's market share increasing, as well as linux (to a lesser extent), a game company needs to ask itself if it wants its wares available to ALL gamers, or just the windows gamers. While windows gamers are a significantly larger share of that pie, 'right now', they are NOT, by any stretch, the 'whole' pie any longer.

Rienholt
Venant Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.24 18:18:00 - [21]
 

Has anyone heard of Blizzard? They have made a good amount of progress on Linux because they 1) donated coders to fix a lot of the errors in WINE, 2) donated money to the WINE project, 3) take bug reports regarding WINE issues and submit them to the WINE project, and 4) have a couple coders that work on major WOW/WINE bugs. CCP doesn't have to do that but having a guy who goes over bugs and pokes around in WINE to help the project pinpoint problems would help things.

Gilbert T
Gallente
Gladiators of Rage
Posted - 2009.02.24 18:39:00 - [22]
 

Well I started playing the game because of linux being supported, and now they are dropping support completely. It'd be nice if I could get a refund for all the money I spent, since I'm sure it will quit working through wine eventually anyway...

Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2009.02.24 22:29:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Gilbert T
Well I started playing the game because of linux being supported, and now they are dropping support completely. It'd be nice if I could get a refund for all the money I spent, since I'm sure it will quit working through wine eventually anyway...


While I should smack you with a trout upside yer head for that I won't.

Wine has been successfully running eve since over a YEAR BEFORE CCP decided to support the linux platform with the dreadful cedega based "official client". Wine gets fixes and improvements every 2 weeks AND Crossover lists EVE Online as a SUPPORTED GAME. As long as wine is being developed and improved, then there is no reason to believe EVE won't run.

CCP has even indicated that they are "smoke testing" the client to see that it doesn't crash on startup via wine. They are ending the "official client" because nobody was fracking using it. (because it was junk.)

As for refunds...you've been playing EVE while paying for it. You got what you paid for. If you can no longer play, then no longer pay. Its that simple.

Gilbert T
Gallente
Gladiators of Rage
Posted - 2009.02.25 21:33:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Sevarus James


Wine has been successfully running eve since over a YEAR BEFORE CCP decided to support the linux platform with the dreadful cedega based "official client". Wine gets fixes and improvements every 2 weeks AND Crossover lists EVE Online as a SUPPORTED GAME. As long as wine is being developed and improved, then there is no reason to believe EVE won't run.

CCP has even indicated that they are "smoke testing" the client to see that it doesn't crash on startup via wine. They are ending the "official client" because nobody was fracking using it. (because it was junk.)

As for refunds...you've been playing EVE while paying for it. You got what you paid for. If you can no longer play, then no longer pay. Its that simple.



Of course you're right. I'm just a little bit frustrated. I started playing because it was advertised as if it were a linux native game, and when I discovered it was actually just a cedega wrapper I figured it was something like the first step toward a transition to a real native client. It seems that it was all going in the opposite direction, though.

As it stands, the test server client doesn't work properly at all unless I get a new graphics card. That's not really a big deal, since I was waiting for an excuse to buy one anyway. It just seems that, with the technologies they are choosing for their software, it's going to be very difficult to keep things running. I feel like not only are they dropping us from support but that they are also working hard to make it so I can't play at all. I'm pretty sure that isn't the case, but you can't help but wonder why they would wish to make things so difficult for us.

I get the feeling that what I have to look forward to, now, are periods of time where a new patch is deployed and I can't get the game to run anymore until wine has been updated, and I just have to wait until that happens.

And while what you say is true, and I did play while I was paying for it, it's the kind of game where the first couple of years are more training time than anything else, and a lot of things you simply cannot do until after that. If I had known that the "linux support" was only temporary, I never would have paid for it in the first place. Although I'm fairly certain it wasn't their intention, it makes me feel like I've been the victim of a kind of scam.

I agree with everything you've said, though. The (lack of) involvement from Transgaming often made me wonder why they were paying them, and I actually can't blame them for dropping it. It probably was the right decision. I was just venting some of my frustration here, I guess, and I apologize if I ****ed anyone off.

And thanks again for all your help Sev. As long as you (and others like you) are hanging out around here and helping people like me out, I'll probably keep paying/playing.


Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2009.02.26 12:03:00 - [25]
 

Beautiful! Gilbert, that's worth a sticky all by itself.


Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2009.02.26 15:05:00 - [26]
 

Gilbert, I feel your pain.

I'm too a late comer to the EVE party because there was no linux client to speak of till Trinity. And with much shame I admit I should have given WINE a chance before "official support", because that's what I ended playing with: WINE and Windows client.

I sort of understand your disappointment over being "betrayed over an implied promise".

If that comforts you - and it shouldn't - it's like the near-scam perpetrated by Epic Games with Unreal Tournament III. At first, they promised delivery of linux client within the retail box. It was november 2007. To date, 16 months later, there's still NO trace of the linux client, while many people even bought the box back in the days, believing the (now clearly false) promise. Being subscribed to the ut3 linux mailing list is quite enlightening - I learn new insults every day!

You trusted the company that lured you out of your hole, and then they turned their back to you.

It's not pleasant, I know.

But we're blessed with a vigorously active development community. We know we're constantly treated like the red headed stepchild. But we grew accustomed to that. It's the price we accepted to pay for freedom - nobody said it would come free of charge!

WINE devs will keep trying supporting EVE as brilliantly as they did so far.

Eoras Northwind
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.02.27 21:27:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Eoras Northwind on 27/02/2009 21:29:56
Originally by: Mamede
In my opinion Transgamming somehow lost its edge. I remember when "winex" came, I bought a subcription when I saw the product;


As did I. Back then the directX support in wine was non-existent to poor.

Originally by: Mamede
however somehow I had the impression(and only impression) they tried to tune their software so tight to somegames they "forgot" to check winehq code..But that's just "my" impression as a former sad client, I don't really know what really happened.


The fork of wineX happened because wine changed license. Originally, you could make your own commercial product with wine (Crossover is made by the wine team and sold via CodeWeavers.)

Bottom line: almost all the code going into wine after the license change was unavailable to the Transgaming folks. And if Apocrypha is any indication, there is a lot more windows code used by Eve than just DirectX (even if it is only in the broken installer.)

During 2005-2006 a new team of volunteer programmers completely re-wrote the DirectX support in wine. Not only is this support better than the old wine code but also better than the current wineX, now called Cedega.

Transgaming was originally founded to see if there was any demand for Linux games. Considering their success with their relatively inferior product, I'd say yes, there is quite some demand.

Often, as you can see by looking at the history of the Compiz Fusion project the best parts of the projects would be merged back into a single product. However, the competing, closed nature of Transgaming and the commercial-forbidding license of wine prevents that. At the best, there are a few bits of Cedega that were provided to the wine project. At this time, those bits are still unused.

Normally that would cause the unfavored fork to die, but there is apparently enough demand for windows applications on Linux to not only support Cedega/Cider but also Crossover/winelib and the free wine.

For what it's worth, I still throw $5 at Transgaming for the few games they support which won't run on wine well. But the list gets shorter by the day.

And I would never put Eve on that list.


 

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