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Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2009.02.05 15:05:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Typhado3
Edited by: Typhado3 on 05/02/2009 12:54:09
Abbaddon with tachyons out alpha's the maelstrom with 1400 mm's, yes I know it has to sacrifice some tank for that's it, thats what flexibility is..... You gotta admit that something's wrong with that when you consider minmatar are supposed to be the masters of flexibility and alpha.


That is because the Maelstrom has A ROF bonus and the Abaddon has a Damage bonus. Arties still have the highest alpha of any weapon. It takes a 25% bonus to damage to push tachyons just barely higher than arties.


Originally by: Typhado3

as for those who say no one can ever use tachyons cause of fitting problems here are some kill board links.... now pls for the love of god don't drag coad **** in here cause of those links.


Lol, did you even LOOK at those kills you posted? They prove my point. Apocs can fit 8 guns yet in ALL THREE of those links you posted they only had 7 Tachyons fitted and left their 8th high free and yet they STILL needed a Tech II Reactor Control (+15%) to fit it all!

Kirtan Loor
Divine Retribution
Sons of Tangra
Posted - 2009.02.05 15:36:00 - [62]
 

OP please change the title of the thread. What you are trying to show is the absence of range bonus on gallente and minmatar ships. The weapons do not play a role in this discussion as they are more or less matched.

As for lacking range bonus: Most sniping fleets are made of mixed type of battleships. The FC guides the fleet by warping to the longest range hittable by the majority of the fleet. That means, you never need to hit 200k+ unless the fleet is composed of Rokh's and Apoc's. That also means you don't need to put tracking enhanchers and other stuff to get to the nominal fleet range (160-180k)on your rokh and apoc. You can put RCU's and/or additional tank on these slots and become DD immune.

Sniping ships for gallente and minmatar: Range bonus and damage bonus really shouldn't be together. Would you give up on damage bonus on mega or hype for a range bonus? I'm sure I would not. Mayyyyybe on tempest...a range bonus instead of rof bonus. Artilleries suck anyway why not boost their range?

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.02.05 17:16:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Gartel Reiman

The title of this thread, and the OP itself, posited that Tachyons were effectively a tier above other racial top-tier long-range turrets. Through looking at the statistics other posters have made it clear that tachyons themselves are comparable to 1400mm arties or 425mm rails.


I haven't really seen any numbers, but possibly I missed them. The only claim that I have seen in this thread is that "there are three large beam types and there are three large rail types and the two artillery types correspond like this because I say so" and I'm a bit allergic to argumentation like that. Here there be some numbers:

Unmodified stats.

1400mm arty II:
Optimal 48km
Falloff 35km
RoF 23.625s
DamMod 7.245
DoT (DamMod / RoF) 0.30667
Tracking 0.009

425mm rail II:
Optimal 57.6km
Falloff 24km
RoF 9.563
DamMod 3.3
DoT (DamMod / RoF) 0.345
Tracking 0.00962

Tach II:
Optimal 52.8km
Falloff 20km
RoF 12.5s
DamMod 5.4
DoT (DamMod / RoF) 0.432
Tracking 0.01392

And the comparison.

Tach vs 1400mm:
Optimal +10%
Falloff -43%
DoT +41%
Tracking +55%

Tach vs 425mm:
Optimal -8%
Falloff -17%
DoT +25%
Tracking +45%

These are supposed to be same tier guns? Tachyons have a quarter to 40% more damage, about half again better tracking, similar range. Nuh-uh.

I personally agree with you in that I think that the guns itself are reasonably balanced by their fitting costs and cap use and it's the Apoc that is the problem, though.

Captator
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2009.02.05 17:37:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Captator on 05/02/2009 17:41:46
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: fuxinos


You already have with hybrids.

Dual 250mm Rails, 350mm Rails, 425mm Rails are hybrid bs-class sniper-weapons.



And no matter how many tracking comps gallente ships or mini ships fit they can never reach the range that tachs do.


You clearly don't know much about gallente snipers:

[Hyperion, Fleet sniper]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Internal Force Field Array I
Tracking Enhancer II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets

425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L

Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Ancillary Current Router I
Ionic Field Projector I

357 dps at 191km + 30 falloff, 77k EHP, so subtract a bit of dps a bit of falloff and a bit of EHP due to more common skill levels, but this is easily comparable to the Apoc.

[Megathron, Fleet sniper]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Internal Force Field Array I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
100MN MicroWarpdrive II

[empty high slot]
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L

Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Ancillary Current Router I

312 dps at 191km + 30 falloff, 77k EHP. Do you detect a pattern?

It is true that minmatar can't hit at 200km (well, with much more than 100 dps), but that is 4 ships that can hit out there, of which only one is amarr shockhorrorcallthewaahmbulance Rolling Eyes. FCs often don't use the 200km benchmark for this reason incidentally (geddon/baddon/mael/temp can't hit properly at it), and the 150km is more common, at which range it is a pretty level playing field.

Edit: you are complaining the Gallente BS don't have diversity relative to Amarr? Shocked Amarr have the least - 3 gunboats, 2 of which don't have utility highs, 2 of which are basically gankbuffer ships, there is far less flexibility in the Amarr lineup.

Noobie Noobsen
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.02.05 17:40:00 - [65]
 

its really nice to read that stuff from murina. gallente were so über a few months ago and amarr down. but after some patches, amarr seems to be fotm und gallentes want some love.

its long time ago amarr was fotm, good ol´ times Wink

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.02.05 17:41:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Gartel Reiman

The title of this thread, and the OP itself, posited that Tachyons were effectively a tier above other racial top-tier long-range turrets. Through looking at the statistics other posters have made it clear that tachyons themselves are comparable to 1400mm arties or 425mm rails.


I haven't really seen any numbers, but possibly I missed them.

Bottom post on page 1 summed it up quite well:
Originally by: fuxinos
425mm with max Skills and Spike (unbonused) have 130km optimal + 30km Falloff and Tachs with Aurora have 119km optimal and 25km falloff (unbonused).

Its more like Gallente lack a ship with rangebonus rather then the weapons being imbalanced.

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.05 17:56:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 18:26:18


Originally by: Captator


Hype

357 dps at 191km + 30 falloff.

Mega


312 dps at 191km + 30 falloff, 77k EHP. Do you detect a pattern?




Yup, like i said gallente have 2 BS that apart from a slight and rather unimportant slot difference and bonus are way too like each other.

One of them is pointless cos they are so alike and needs changing, a optimal bonus on one will just fit the bill....

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.02.05 18:23:00 - [68]
 

Yep, gallente doesnt need an optimal bonused bs. The megathron is good enough for fleet ops.

Zamolxiss
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.02.05 18:37:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Murina
stuff

maralt, get a life dude and stop trolling.. you give new meanings to the term clueless and you don't even have the balls to post with your main..

Regarding Tachs.. as mentioned by now a few times, there isn't a single amarr bs that can fit a full rack of t2 Tachs without multiple fitting mods/rigs, and that's a very important ballancing factor..

As far as the missing oversized long range weapon in the Rail and Arty roundup, it would be a little hard to implement it.. meaning, 425mm's allready have the longest range of all long range turrets, on full bonused Rokhs can allready shoot from outside of the 249km's targeting range.. so how would a larger gun fit in this picture!?

1400mm's on the other hand allready have huge powergrid requirements in relation to the minnie bs roundup, can't see an even larger gun having any actual use, beter range for the 1400mm's would do it.. or even beter, some more powergrid for the pest to have it fit a full rack of 1400mm's the same way the mega fits a full rack of 425mm's, meaning.. without the need for fitting mods/rigs..

ps. seriously maralt.. get a grip dude.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.02.05 18:42:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Naomi Knight on 05/02/2009 18:44:36
Edited by: Naomi Knight on 05/02/2009 18:43:05
There is no need for larger arty and rail guns.

Murina just want to make gallente boats to be amarr boats that should not happen.

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.05 18:43:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Zamolxiss

maralt, get a life dude and stop trolling.. you give new meanings to the term clueless and you don't even have the balls to post with your main..


I have never denied who my main is muppet, he is unable to post for the next month or so hence the cyno alt posts...

And the problem may have been originally posted as a gun problem but its the bonuses on ships the guns get that is the real issue. Although that is rather obvious considering guns in a hangar or on the market are really not much of a threat..


PS: go ahead and drop a few more names out it will save me doing it pal.

Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.02.05 19:22:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Murina

I have never denied who my main is muppet, he is unable to post for the next month or so hence the cyno alt posts...



Hint didn't take huh?




Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.05 19:29:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight

There is no need for larger arty and rail guns.




Very true a simple adjustments to ship bonuses on one of the blaster boats and the pest or strom should do it.

Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.05 19:41:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Naomi Knight

There is no need for larger arty and rail guns.




Very true a simple adjustments to ship bonuses on one of the blaster boats and the pest or strom should do it.


IMHO changing the Hyps repair bonus to a Hybrid falloff bonus would do it. Makes the Hype a much better blaster boat, lets it deal with its tracking problems in a way that makes it very distinct from the Mega, gives it longer effective range without intruding on the Rokh's territory. Its a win win.


Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.02.05 19:46:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Naomi Knight

There is no need for larger arty and rail guns.




Very true a simple adjustments to ship bonuses on one of the blaster boats and the pest or strom should do it.

No.
Gallente and matar ships are good enough for fleet fights atm.
Only thing should be changed is the apoc as it is too good,i would decrease its cap slightly.
And a little decrease (20-30%) in rails cap use and everything is fine.

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.05 19:55:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 19:56:33
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Naomi Knight

There is no need for larger arty and rail guns.




Very true a simple adjustments to ship bonuses on one of the blaster boats and the pest or strom should do it.

No.
Gallente and matar ships are good enough for fleet fights atm.
Only thing should be changed is the apoc as it is too good,i would decrease its cap slightly.
And a little decrease (20-30%) in rails cap use and everything is fine.


I suppose switching the range bonus for a ship cap bonus or recharge rate would have the desired balancing effect.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.02.05 20:25:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Murina

I suppose switching the range bonus for a ship cap bonus or recharge rate would have the desired balancing effect.


Especially as the apoc has a built in cap bonust, just compare:

cap/rec
apoc 7500/1154s should be changed to 6000/1154s, and optimal bonus to cap bonus
mega 5625/1154s
pest 5312/1154s imho it doesnt need this much as no cap use for weapons
rokh 6000/1250s should be increased to 7000-7500 or decrease large hybrids cap use by 30%





Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.02.05 21:06:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Murina

I suppose switching the range bonus for a ship cap bonus or recharge rate would have the desired balancing effect.


Especially as the apoc has a built in cap bonust, just compare:

cap/rec
apoc 7500/1154s should be changed to 6000/1154s, and optimal bonus to cap bonus

That's exactly what the Apoc USED TO HAVE, and because it was terrible, they boosted it to give it the range bonus :-/

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.02.05 21:32:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Murina

I suppose switching the range bonus for a ship cap bonus or recharge rate would have the desired balancing effect.


Especially as the apoc has a built in cap bonust, just compare:

cap/rec
apoc 7500/1154s should be changed to 6000/1154s, and optimal bonus to cap bonus

That's exactly what the Apoc USED TO HAVE, and because it was terrible, they boosted it to give it the range bonus :-/


Yeah and they made a big mistake by that , now apoc is op.

Ka'loor
Amarr
Die Argonen
Posted - 2009.02.05 21:57:00 - [80]
 

Yes so lets nerf it back into uselessness again.

Great.

No i dont fly apocs. So it doesnt concern me too much, but why?

/sarcasm
We could go back to EVE 1.00 since old times is better, give is 8 Heat Sink Geddons back!!!oneoneone

/sarcasm off

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.05 22:00:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 22:07:55
Originally by: Ka'loor
Yes so lets nerf it back into uselessness again.


How is it having the same range (apart from the rokh) but better tracking than the other races BS useless?....and if what is so and they are useless, the other races deserve a buff do you not think?.


Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2009.02.05 22:38:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Murina
Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 22:07:55
Originally by: Ka'loor
Yes so lets nerf it back into uselessness again.


How is it having the same range (apart from the rokh) but better tracking than the other races BS useless?....and if what is so and they are useless, the other races deserve a buff do you not think?.




The reason it was useless was because it had no role. Geddon and Abaddon both out gank it and out tank it. (Geddon has 8th low, Abaddon has resist bonus)

Now Amarr has 3 ships, who still step on each others toes a bit but not nearly as bad as before.

Armageddon: Cheap, High DPS, Big Drone bay.
Apocalypse: Long Range, Moderate DPS.
Abaddon: Ultimate Tank/Gank ratio, horrible cap problems.

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.05 22:43:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 22:46:15
Originally by: Last Wolf
Originally by: Murina
Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 22:07:55
Originally by: Ka'loor
Yes so lets nerf it back into uselessness again.


How is it having the same range (apart from the rokh) but better tracking than the other races BS useless?....and if what is so and they are useless, the other races deserve a buff do you not think?.




The reason it was useless was because it had no role. Geddon and Abaddon both out gank it and out tank it. (Geddon has 8th low, Abaddon has resist bonus)

Now Amarr has 3 ships, who still step on each others toes a bit but not nearly as bad as before.

Armageddon: Cheap, High DPS, Big Drone bay.
Apocalypse: Long Range, Moderate DPS.
Abaddon: Ultimate Tank/Gank ratio, horrible cap problems.


So the idea of giving one of the blaster BS and either the pest or strom a range bonus is still the best way?...good i always preferred buffs to nerfs tbh.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2009.02.05 22:45:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Last Wolf
Originally by: Murina
Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 22:07:55
Originally by: Ka'loor
Yes so lets nerf it back into uselessness again.


How is it having the same range (apart from the rokh) but better tracking than the other races BS useless?....and if what is so and they are useless, the other races deserve a buff do you not think?.




The reason it was useless was because it had no role. Geddon and Abaddon both out gank it and out tank it. (Geddon has 8th low, Abaddon has resist bonus)

Now Amarr has 3 ships, who still step on each others toes a bit but not nearly as bad as before.

Armageddon: Cheap, High DPS, Big Drone bay.
Apocalypse: Long Range, Moderate DPS.
Abaddon: Ultimate Tank/Gank ratio, horrible cap problems.


Then keep its optimal but decrease something else ,because it is much better than the mega or the tempest.Lower cap or number of guns.

Captator
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:10:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Murina
Yup, like i said gallente have 2 BS that apart from a slight and rather unimportant slot difference and bonus are way too like each other.

One of them is pointless cos they are so alike and needs changing, a optimal bonus on one will just fit the bill....


No, not like you said at all, you said that gallente didn't have BS capable of hitting out at the same range as the apoc, and I have just given you 2 so that directly disproves something you said; we aren't in agreement. If you think the hype and mega are too similar, then I would argue the abaddon and geddon are even more similar.

Malvorak
Amarr
The Inf1dels
En Garde
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:11:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight

Then keep its optimal but decrease something else ,because it is much better than the mega or the tempest.Lower cap or number of guns.



Oh noes!!!

A ship that actually does what its meant to do, plz nerf it!!!

Omg its so much better then a tempest and a mega at snipping so it must be OP...of course the tempest and the mega are far superior at closer ranges, but what the heck right??

"Omg my ship cant do what your does, plz ccp, make all ships do exactly the same, so that way we can have bloody world of warcraft in space!!!!!"

Im so angry because Tachs have more tracking then my rails, everyone noes how bloody that is important at long range, besides they are so much better than all other range weapons...exept they are extremly hard to fit...and consume a huge amount of cap...maybe that why the apoc has a bigger cap than the other bs of the same tier???

Not to mention that everyone knows that everyone one in eve battles at ranges over 200k right?

Jesus ppl get a grip!!

Captator
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:11:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Then keep its optimal but decrease something else ,because it is much better than the mega or the tempest.Lower cap or number of guns.


Better than Tempest yes, Mega no, Mega can match or exceed it in any role besides fleet sniper, and even then it is damn close.

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:14:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Murina on 05/02/2009 23:20:00

Originally by: Captator
Originally by: Murina
Yup, like i said gallente have 2 BS that apart from a slight and rather unimportant slot difference and bonus are way too like each other.

One of them is pointless cos they are so alike and needs changing, a optimal bonus on one will just fit the bill....


No, not like you said at all, you said that gallente didn't have BS capable of hitting out at the same range as the apoc,


The apoc can hit at max the mega and hype cannot, so you proved nothing.

Originally by: Captator


Better than Tempest yes, Mega no, Mega can match or exceed it in any role besides fleet sniper, and even then it is damn close.


The apoc is a better fleet/gang sniper and there also amarr BS that make much better close range gang ships than the mega or hype for that matter.

Selia Rain
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:37:00 - [89]
 

Why is it that nobody cried when the typhoon lost it's optimal bonus(true story), but the crapoc gets one and all of a sudden everyone cries imba like it's the second coming of the emperor?

Pulse are clearly inferior to other closerange guns >15km. Tachs are superior to other races guns in alpha when fitted to the abbadon(give me a reasonable fit where you can deal full dps in an abbadon for more than 2 vollies at 200km plz), and range when fitted to, suprise suprise, the newly buffed apoc. Apoc gets 3/4ths of a real optimal bonus(because it benefits pulse as well, all said, but wait, the rokh optimal bonus doesn't benefit blasters at all right? People don't actually use null, right?), and no damage bonus, but awesome cap stability for a lazor platform. Abbadon has good alpha with tachs, but lacks the cap stability for sustained engagements(lol fit cap boost on a fleet battleship?).

If you're going to argue tracking, I say boost projectiles, which have the closest range(needs more tracking) and worst tracking of all longrange guns. Boost arty alpha(lower rof to keep similar dps) while you're at it.

Ultimately something has to be the "best" or else we may as well all just slap "Standard Large Turret II" on our ship and call it a day. Lazors have enough problems of their own to offset the advantages of using them(beams have shortish range when not fitted on +optimal boats, for one), heavy cap use for another(again, give me functional tach sniping abbadon or even geddon fit, plz, pref microwarp so I can GTFO bubbles).

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.05 23:42:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Selia Rain


Pulse are clearly inferior to other closerange guns >15km.


Shocked

This is a typo or joke post right?, BS pulse are more OP compared to AC and blasters than the apoc tach fit is to arties and rails ffs.


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