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Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.01.22 04:12:00 - [31]
 

stealth bombers - epic loss of POD


bomb timer needs to be shorter, 5 seconds maximum, else they are too easy to spot and avoid. Bombs have to be fired from longer distance, 30-35 km to ensure blast safety. In order to fire a bomb in a squad, bombers are forced to fit bomb specific tank and shield extenders so that the blast doesn't break the squad. Bomb max distance must be sufficient to warrant safety to squad members. Bombs need an easy way to aim, their targeting should be made simple.

Why can't stealth bombers lock targets while cloaked? Why? There is no theory behind it. When you decloak and spend 2.5 seconds locking so does your enemy. When you fire your weapon you are dead meat already.

Why do bombers have to sacrifice launcher to fit a bomb? Ideally Bomb launchers should not take missile hardpoint. Bombs are rather expensive and are not over used.

Why are stealth bombers extremely slow and clumsy? It doesn't help at all, the ship warps slower than a Battleship. Stealthbombers need to stay agile and maneuverable. In theory should be able to use afterburner while cloaked.

What sort of Medium slots is stealth bomber designed for? Electronic warfare? Point and tackle? Shield buffer? Scanners?

Stealth bombers would benefit greatly if they could actually scan the target while cloaked. Give stealth bombers ability to use ship scanner and cargo scanner in cloaked mode. Also slow down targeting (20 sec), so that only slow targets can be scanned, not turning stealth bomber into scout mobile.

Stealthbombers have to stay stealthy until they fire their weapons. Stealthbombers need to be able to warp cloaked at slow speed. Stealth bombers aren't recons or forces meant to intercept, they need to get in position slowly and take the right spot. Stealth bombers require warp cloaked ability of 0.5 AU per second.

Maximum required stealth bomber squad should be not more than 5, so that the ships can achieve maximum efficiency versus larger targets in groups of 5 pilots and less. DPS output of stealth bombers should be sufficient to destroy a HAC or a Battleship with the help of point Recon (Arazu) and covert cyno generators.

There are never going to be 20 bombers in one fleet.

And finally nerf local and let space be space.




Tyranis Var
Talon Logistics Inc.
Posted - 2009.01.22 07:07:00 - [32]
 

agree with OP

/signed

above guy should reread thread part on bombs Razz

Rip Striker
Posted - 2009.01.22 07:18:00 - [33]
 

/signed

To the OP: Copy/Paste this information into the CSM forum. That way forumists can vote and possible move this up to CCPs attention.

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.01.22 07:23:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Opertone on 22/01/2009 07:25:11
currently lvl 5 covert ops pilot can destroy enemy Recon, Interdictor, Interceptor and Cruiser with one bomb.

However he is guaranteed to lose his 30 mill ship and more likely his POD.

giving 250 m signature to bombs will be overpowering and cookie cutter. Smaller targets will be annihilated by bombs entirely unless they can outrun or escape the blast area.

Carrying more than 1 bomb is FFS not reasonable - the target will not be there, bombs work as surprise weapon, the enemy will not be surprised twice.

2 Bombs + Launcher are near the price of Stealth Bomber. Improved cloaking device II is half the price of stealth bomber. Fully t2 stealth bomber with standard setup and two bombs - 45 mill. 25 Mill SP clone with basic implants another 50 mill.

Flying stealth bombers as of now - pure death to the POD owner. Multiply by minimum effective squad size, 45 x 5 + 50 x 5 = 225 + 250, 475 mill of Corporate Failure.

Should you camp a gate with bomb squad, Heavy Interdictor jumps second, pops up a bubble. Stealth bombers had decloaked and launched bombs, slow bombs don't allow to cloak back, got stuck in the bubble, got locked popped and podded. For a price of heavy interdictor and his T2 Hac gang.

Elhina Novae
HAMMER -N- SICKEL
Posted - 2009.01.22 07:47:00 - [35]
 

If i could make love with words, it would be yours.

Brego Tralowski
Galactic Extensive Technologies
SUB ROSA ALLIANCE
Posted - 2009.01.22 07:49:00 - [36]
 

I have to say to the OP that I agreee with the majority of your post. It would be nice to 'fire and forget' cruise missiles.

By this I mean: Decloak - target and launch your missiles - recloak. Hitting the target and causing damge still. You would be cloaked from the target but your missiles would still connect.

Currently you can only do this tactic if your under around 40km from your target with a Passive targeter fixed so your not being locked as you lock your opponent.

My SB fleet always use this tactic when we go out, but a longer range for this method of fighting would be useful and so would increased missile flight speed.

I also agree that whilst I love my SB it's not exactly correct calliing it a 'Stealth Bomber' as I do not see that it fits the role correctly, every ship can cloak but it doesn't make it exactly stealthy in the true sense.

I would like to be able to warp cloacked this would be a real asset to the ship class, the element of surprise is a big factor in the use of this ship and something that should be used more to its effectiveness.

Alpha should also be addressed, being able to fire and forget and cause great damage would see more of these ships brought into battle.

It would be ashame to see this class of ship die out just because it simply doesn't do the job it's designed to do well enough. It has a role in a gang but it just doesn't seem to fill it well enough. Hopefully things will change and we can see this little ship being feared.

Or course the whole bomb issue also needs addressing, such as: Bomb costs, flight time, HPs, where they can be used plus other issues.

But I also think that they should remain paper thin and pretty much pointless to try and tank. Your only tank option should remain your cloaking device, Hence the need to address it's multitude of abilities revolving around this particular module. Flying these ships should be down to the poilots skill and battlefield awareness and not tanking modules.

Above all else these ships are great fun to fly and are great for harassing people, lets keep it that way!

I would like to thank the OP for putting this post together and taking the time to take a look at this little ship and trying to make it 'better' instead another 'Why are SBs rubbish?' thread.

Post signed by an avid SB lover.

Max Hardcase
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.22 07:54:00 - [37]
 

OP + bomb launcher = general high slot item = win.
( and a bit of CPU pls )

Imaos
Posted - 2009.01.22 09:50:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Wannabehero
Stealth Bomber Changes

The Stealth Bomber must be stealthy

The stealth bomber should be true to its name and be a slippery little devil. Completely screwed if caught out in the open, but a bugger to lock down when you arenít expecting/anticipating it. I see two mutually exclusive solutions to give the stealth bomber this ability, and these are:
  • Change the Covert speed bonus from 125% per level to 200% per level. With this increase to the speed bonus, a max skilled covert ops pilot can reach the same speeds while cloaked as he would uncloaked using an afterburner. By activating an afterburner and then cloaking, the pilot can reach MWD equivalent speeds.

  • Or

  • Remove this bonus entirely and allow stealth bombers to fit covert-ops cloaks.




As I mentioned it in many other threads on the stealth bomber subject: Giving the stealth bomber the cov ops cloak is too much. It will lead to much whine, because it lets you get in position and get aligned while your target has no chance to react until your squadron decloaks, locks, fires one volley enough to kill the ship and is in warp right just after the missiles leave ship. As you break the attempts to lock you start recloaking in flight.

This is simple with the current bombers if they could fit a cov ops cloak as they can fit 1-2 sensor booster for faster locking and can be close enough so the missiles will hit even if they enter warp/cloak.

As opposed to a falcon who is just an annoyance because he can't kill, but can be forced to warp out, you'll loose a ship on every pass of the bomber squad and can't do anything to them unless you can prevent them to enter warp again aka bubble yourself.

All other things are nice, but remember it is only a t2-frig so it should have its uses, but I really don't want it to become a fotm ship because it becomes too easy to use like a cloaked torp raven Wink.

Imaos

Dictum Factum
Skill Training
Posted - 2009.01.22 10:38:00 - [39]
 

Far and away the best post I have seen regarding my favorite ship.

Shadow18
Posted - 2009.01.22 11:09:00 - [40]
 

Very nice post.

Put it in the Assembly Hall of the CSM as a proposal so we can all show our support and they can bring it up with CCP.

Jasper Mieville
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.01.22 11:26:00 - [41]
 

/signed

Please no covOps cloak though, speed change would be enough.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2009.01.22 11:35:00 - [42]
 

I don't realy know ... the OP does not go far enough I guess ...

The only suggestion I like is the cloak speed bonus change ... would be great ...

covops cloak would be too much.

a complete bomb redesign is needed. there should be dumb fire and homing bombs (first ones have larger damage potential and better range). also bombs should be autonomous, i.e. once they are fired, the state of the bomber (on grid, cloaked, in warp or even destroyed) does not influence the bomb.

bombs could be similar to small drones ... you can lock them and shoot them down. this would help with anti-bomb defenses. also defender missiles could take bombs as threats and target them. this lowers the effectivity of bombs so they could go lower in build cost and volume and more could be deployed per bomber.


Pac SubCom
True Creation
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2009.01.22 11:54:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Pac SubCom on 22/01/2009 11:56:14
Covops cloak = targeting delay = not good.

The way it is now you might know the bomber is there or you might not, the important thing is that you don't know where the bomber is exactly and which ship it is after. You can't lock it until it chooses to show itself, and at that moment the missiles or bombs are already on the way. It has good chances to reposition itself afterwards by cloaking or warping. It is invulnerable to EW. It has the EW option itself. It can utilize cloaked positioning very well. On the operational level, it is quick and slippery. It works well in conjunction with other stealth ships. It has good damage and massive range, up to 230km are possible with the Manticore.

Bombs are a support weapon, not meant to kill ships on their own.

Goldfrapp
Posted - 2009.01.22 12:23:00 - [44]
 

/signed

Ive had a love affair wuth this ship since i started just dont get to use it much

Thercon Jair
Minmatar
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.01.22 12:53:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Imaos
Originally by: Wannabehero
Stealth Bomber Changes

The Stealth Bomber must be stealthy

The stealth bomber should be true to its name and be a slippery little devil. Completely screwed if caught out in the open, but a bugger to lock down when you arenít expecting/anticipating it. I see two mutually exclusive solutions to give the stealth bomber this ability, and these are:
  • Change the Covert speed bonus from 125% per level to 200% per level. With this increase to the speed bonus, a max skilled covert ops pilot can reach the same speeds while cloaked as he would uncloaked using an afterburner. By activating an afterburner and then cloaking, the pilot can reach MWD equivalent speeds.

  • Or

  • Remove this bonus entirely and allow stealth bombers to fit covert-ops cloaks.




As I mentioned it in many other threads on the stealth bomber subject: Giving the stealth bomber the cov ops cloak is too much. It will lead to much whine, because it lets you get in position and get aligned while your target has no chance to react until your squadron decloaks, locks, fires one volley enough to kill the ship and is in warp right just after the missiles leave ship. As you break the attempts to lock you start recloaking in flight.

This is simple with the current bombers if they could fit a cov ops cloak as they can fit 1-2 sensor booster for faster locking and can be close enough so the missiles will hit even if they enter warp/cloak.

As opposed to a falcon who is just an annoyance because he can't kill, but can be forced to warp out, you'll loose a ship on every pass of the bomber squad and can't do anything to them unless you can prevent them to enter warp again aka bubble yourself.

All other things are nice, but remember it is only a t2-frig so it should have its uses, but I really don't want it to become a fotm ship because it becomes too easy to use like a cloaked torp raven Wink.

Imaos


I suppose you have never noticed that, if you hit warp your missiles do connect with the target, but, they deal no damage. And there I do not mean that they don't deal damage when you are in warp. They deal no damage even if you are still aligning and still have the target locked. For some odd reason, turret ships deal damage for as long as you have a lock on the target, so you can still fire while your ship powers up the warp core and turns to warp out.

ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.01.22 13:12:00 - [46]
 

stealth bombers need an overhaul.

CCP should definitely take a look at them, possibly for an overhaul this summer.

Sonreir
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.01.22 13:16:00 - [47]
 

Excellent post all around and I support this thread.
Anyone suppose I might get a forum ban if I report the thread? At least that way someone from CCP will look at it. Laughing

ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.01.22 13:24:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: ry ry on 22/01/2009 13:24:54
Originally by: Sonreir
Excellent post all around and I support this thread.
Anyone suppose I might get a forum ban if I report the thread? At least that way someone from CCP will look at it. Laughing

reported.

incitement to infringe important rules put in place FOR OUR SAFETY. >:(

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2009.01.22 17:13:00 - [49]
 

Totally Awesome


Ione Hunt
Storm Solutions
Posted - 2009.01.22 17:31:00 - [50]
 

SIGNED!!!

The only useful application of bombers right now are:

1) Make Falcons warp out.
2) Large SB fleets where everyone fires 1 salvo at 1 target to kill it instantly. You're small, mobile, and somewhat stealthy, and in a larger group they're deadly.

You can't fight a bigger target solo in them (which I'm fine with), but you should at least be able to destroy smaller targets such as frigs and inties.

P'uck
Posted - 2009.01.22 18:01:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: P''uck on 22/01/2009 18:01:16
If I had the option to add certain bookmarks (or certain bookmarkfolders) to my overview, to actually be able to align and warp quickly, that would be enough to make it a fine ship for me.

edit: and giving them covert ops cloaks would make them waaaaaaay to strong.

Impolite Andevil
New Dawn Corporation
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2009.01.22 18:06:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Impolite Andevil on 22/01/2009 18:08:42
Edited by: Impolite Andevil on 22/01/2009 18:07:37
This is exactly what this ship class needs. Please do this! Although, use the increased speed while cloaked version, not the cov-ops cloak. A cov-ops cloak would be too much. This would also be an excellent step to address the falcon whines. The stealth bomber would become the nemesis of falcons.

Alanee'a Unakarakta
Posted - 2009.01.22 18:18:00 - [53]
 

i vote for a better SB.

o7

.ala

Number 86
Perkone
Posted - 2009.01.22 18:29:00 - [54]
 

/signed

sounds like the proper way to make the ship more useful

Karrade Krise
Posted - 2009.01.22 18:30:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Opertone


Why are stealth bombers extremely slow and clumsy? It doesn't help at all, the ship warps slower than a Battleship. Stealthbombers need to stay agile and maneuverable. In theory should be able to use afterburner while cloaked.



They have a cloaked velocity speed bonus for a reason...

also @op. /signed. (Even though pre-QR I'd disagree with the warping while cloaked idea)

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2009.01.22 19:41:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Ione Hunt
You can't fight a bigger target solo in them (which I'm fine with), but you should at least be able to destroy smaller targets such as frigs and inties.


tbh I'm on the opinion that SB's should fear only inties, frigs and destroyers.

make them anti-big stuff ffs.


otherwise, op's idea is goodCool

oMAKo
Gallente
Kiroshi Group
Exiliar Syndicate
Posted - 2009.01.22 20:05:00 - [57]
 

Awesome post!

CCP get this guy on payroll

Also fix Gallente

August Guns
Minmatar
Generic Technologies and Futures Organization
Posted - 2009.01.22 20:27:00 - [58]
 

In general this looks good. I think a couple of the bomb changes are too powerful when all of them are combined. Still, on the whole its good.

JVol
Amarr
The IMorral MAjority
Posted - 2009.01.22 21:23:00 - [59]
 

I dissagree with the cov ops cloak,too powerfull. 200% speed increase while cloaked would be better. I also think bomb speed and detonation timer is fine, I'd like to see the ACTUAL ROF on the launchers droped to 2 seconds with max skills. 60 seconds is just too long between launching with max skills.

ATm, bombs are difficult to use, but they arent 'broken', get enough on target and things blow up. I think most people who complain about them havent launched enough to have proper tactics down that insure detonation and damage on target. Between myself and my corp8s we have launched over 300 concussion. The price has been the biggest problem for most to really test with them. Even at jita prices of around 6m per bombs its not exactly 'cheap' to use them.

The setup on SB when using bombs is COMPLETELY different than a SB slingin missiles. This is the place most bombers go wrong before the even undock. With bomb setups you dont have to lock a target( so USE wcs ), you just align to it, you also HAVE to plan to take a few hits from fellow bombers. So your setup is all about low sig rad plus highest resists possible to the bomb. An I-stab or a shieled extender in your setup pretty much means you will die instantly. Your ship HAS to stay in one piece untill detionation,to detonate WITH damage to targets.

Align, uncloak, launch, gtfo to an ongrid SS, rinse , and repeat. You will need to have put yourself into a bubble or allowed 3 points to be placed on you to die using this tactic (manti w/ 2 wcs). I generally take at least one hit from fellow bombers somtimes 2-3hits @ 120-140 per blast with hi 80's res to bomb type.

Kurt Gergard
Caldari
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.01.22 22:04:00 - [60]
 

How about you make stealth bombers use large artylery insted of cruise missiles? High instant alpha would solve a lot of the problems.


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