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Amy Wang
Posted - 2009.01.07 19:18:00 - [1]
 

Give it the fuel bay and the ability to ignore cyno jammers in the next big patch, just as you promised.

It is long overdue really.

August Guns
Minmatar
Generic Technologies and Futures Organization
Posted - 2009.01.07 20:42:00 - [2]
 

Covert Cynos ignore cyno jammers already.

Mike C
Caldari
MicroFunks
Posted - 2009.01.07 20:50:00 - [3]
 

The fuel bay is due indeed.
/agree

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.07 21:10:00 - [4]
 

unfortunately, I think the change to blockade runners was the intended implementation to resolve some of the fuel logistics concerns, ie that was in lieu of the seperate fuel bay which would be far more difficult to code and implement.

It may have just been their initial, temporary fix for the issues with the portal while they're adding an actual fuel bay to jump capable ships, however in the Q&As thread where the fuel issue and the covert cyno in cynojammer systems were both confirmed, they did state they were looking to add something like "a seperate fuel bay, or the ability to portal a t2 industrial along with you." not verbatim but something to that affect.

Mike C
Caldari
MicroFunks
Posted - 2009.01.07 21:34:00 - [5]
 

Yes I know that, but a fuel bay in which you can allow access for players to drop fuel in is still needed.

GirlScout
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.01.07 23:17:00 - [6]
 

And Covert Ops Cloaks Please! ;)

Amy Wang
Posted - 2009.01.08 05:58:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: August Guns
Covert Cynos ignore cyno jammers already.


since when? they certainly did not on TQ yesterday Rolling Eyes

Mike C
Caldari
MicroFunks
Posted - 2009.01.08 09:03:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: GirlScout
And Covert Ops Cloaks Please! ;)


YES! That too.

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
Posted - 2009.01.08 09:57:00 - [9]
 

Ignoring the Jump and Cloaking problems, I would much prefer them to redesign the ships to have actual applicable combat roles.

Speaking as a Widow pilot, since my lesser cousins in the Recons put my powerful battleship specialization in electronics to utter shame ... At least turn me into a Raven equivalent. 150mm with two sensor boosters doesn't make for good jamming. Or attacking in general, really. At least I look evil.

Mike C
Caldari
MicroFunks
Posted - 2009.01.08 10:41:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Mike C on 08/01/2009 10:53:02
In my opinion, more firepower is not needed. However, a significant increase in Sensor Strength is required.
Allowing Combat Recon Ships to use the Covert Ops Jump Portal would also help.

EDIT:

Maybe a boost to ECM Cap usage too?

Rhohan
Minmatar Marauders
Posted - 2009.01.08 14:38:00 - [11]
 

Jump Fuel bay, yes
Covert Cyno works in Jammed systems, yes

Increase in sensor strength, possibly
CovOps Cloak, probably not a good idea


Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.01.08 17:07:00 - [12]
 

At least get rid of the scan res penalty when fitting the cloak.

IHaveTenFingers
Caldari
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2009.01.08 20:37:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: August Guns
Covert Cynos ignore cyno jammers already.


No, they don't.

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
Posted - 2009.01.08 20:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Mike C
Edited by: Mike C on 08/01/2009 10:53:02
In my opinion, more firepower is not needed. However, a significant increase in Sensor Strength is required.


The problem is, the Widow doesn't even have firepower. The missile changes have stripped its ability to damage smaller vessels under a battleship. At the point you're able to kill said smaller vessels with target painters etc, your covert gang already has killed them.

Against other battleships can vary depending if you're using Cruise or Torpedoes. From my Cruise missile use stand point, well I feel much like an angry fly. So in my experience, once it gets a lock - if it ever gets a lock - the offensive capacity of the ship falls short of a cruiser.

When I look at the Caldari Covert-line ... the Widow does absolutely nothing. It has no individual merits or effective uses if you ignore its dodgy Jump drive/Bridge. I really, really just want them to redesign the ship so it focuses more on combat than ECM. Its lesser brothers in the Recons outscore its ECM power by miles. The targeting speed is pathetically useless even with two scan resolution scripts so it can't jam fast ... I can keep going.

But, really, I'm all ears if other Widow pilots disagree with me. I'm starting to run out of optimism on how to get this cursed thing to work.

Mike C
Caldari
MicroFunks
Posted - 2009.01.08 21:11:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Mike C on 08/01/2009 21:13:16
Yes, I suppose with the missile changes it needs a good damage buff, but I see the Widow as more of a support platform. I guess thats just me though. Maybe a +100% bonus to Torp range per level of Black Ops


EDIT 1:
  • From "125% bonus per level of Black Ops" to "+100% bonus per level of Black Ops"


Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
Posted - 2009.01.08 23:01:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mike C
Edited by: Mike C on 08/01/2009 21:13:16
Yes, I suppose with the missile changes it needs a good damage buff, but I see the Widow as more of a support platform.


Yes, I will agree with you there. But even in a support role, its design flaws are hideous. As I've pointed out, the lesser Recons outscore its ECM specialization by miles. In terms of applicable damage, the Manticore has much greater versatility and does a substantial alpha strike against small-craft.

So if you strip away its ability to create bridges for Covert ships, can you imagine anything the Widow offers of value? This is the question I'm still trying to create a working design on.

Vitrael
Reaper Industries
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.01.09 00:07:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: August Guns
Covert Cynos ignore cyno jammers already.


Actually you're wrong.

And /signed, FUEL BAY PLEASE! Giving industrial ships the ability to jump isn't a "compromise", it's a third character that you need just to use one blackops ship.

SniperWo1f
Rage of Inferno
Minor Threat.
Posted - 2009.01.09 01:08:00 - [18]
 

yes yes

fuel bay
cynos in cyno jammed systems

if they allow covert cloaks ... it will be so good . so so gooodVery Happy

Rhohan
Minmatar Marauders
Posted - 2009.01.09 01:12:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ghost hunter

Yes, I will agree with you there. But even in a support role, its design flaws are hideous. As I've pointed out, the lesser Recons outscore its ECM specialization by miles. In terms of applicable damage, the Manticore has much greater versatility and does a substantial alpha strike against small-craft.

So if you strip away its ability to create bridges for Covert ships, can you imagine anything the Widow offers of value? This is the question I'm still trying to create a working design on.


The BlackOps are based upon the Tier 1 Battleships, not the Recons. It just happens that the Scorpian has similar bonuses as the Caldari Recons. It has a better Jam strength than the Scorp but no Jam range bonus.

As mentioned before, I also see the BlackOps as more of a support ship and view it's weapons systems as more of a defensive measure. They are far easier to fit when you think of it like that.

If you are getting into one to be in a better Pvp ship, you are probably looking at it wrong. Take any Pvp role the BlackOps could fill, other than its primary, and you can find a far cheaper ship that does it better. I think that was the intent of the design, not a flaw in it.





Ahz
Posted - 2009.01.09 01:59:00 - [20]
 

I vote for:
- True tech II resists
- Black Ops skill bonus reduces fuel costs (10% per level).

That's enough for me.

Gravy if you can jump through anything you've got the fuel / skills for. I still think that only being able to portal through recons an cov ops is silly.

Ahz

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.09 03:06:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Rajere on 09/01/2009 03:13:02
Originally by: Rhohan
The BlackOps are based upon the Tier 1 Battleships, not the Recons. It just happens that the Scorpian has similar bonuses as the Caldari Recons. It has a better Jam strength than the Scorp but no Jam range bonus.

As mentioned before, I also see the BlackOps as more of a support ship and view it's weapons systems as more of a defensive measure. They are far easier to fit when you think of it like that.
That's like saying "I had no problems fitting Miner II's, 3x Mining Laser Upgrades, and cargo expanders on my Rokh." it's easier to fit, but it's pointless on a rokh you intend to pvp in. Same applies to the Widow, which I assume you meant as it's the only blackops which you could confuse as a "support ship", but lets ignore that gaping hole in your logic for a moment.

If a ship is easy to fit it's a clear indication that you are doing something wrong. Pretty much every ship in the game has to make certain concessions, tradeoffs, etc when it comes which modules to fit. You have to rule out some options, then maybe downgrade some mods to best named/faction, possibly incorporating a fitting implant in to get it all on there how you want it.
Very, very rarely should you actually use a fitting mod to make something fit, I can only think of a handful of situations where the tradeoff is viable.

this fits fine without any implants or fitting mods. The concession made here were which 2 utility mods to fit, resulting in this particular setup lacking tackle. Tackle is generally well covered by the rest of the gang, though you could replace eithe the painter or the sensor booster with a Warp Disruptor II, by simply downgrading the TP II to PWNAGE:
[Widow, Non-fail Widow (MWD)]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Target Painter II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Large 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge
Improved Cloaking Device II

Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I

Warrior II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5

Now if you meant "easier" as in deciding what to use, between, dmg, tank, ecm, etc? That one is quite simple really. Everything about the ship, include its slot layout, missile hardpoints, battleship bonuses, ship class (including situations where you will field them, & what it's role will be in those situations) all points to the same logical conclusion: It's a raven, fit it like one. I know that seems complicated, but don't worry, every single blackops got a weird 3rd bonus from completely out of left field. Speed? Agility? Tracking? (on Lasers???) The widow is no different, ECM Strength? Ignore it. move on.

(cont)

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
Posted - 2009.01.09 03:24:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Ghost hunter on 09/01/2009 03:26:46
Originally by: Rhohan
The BlackOps are based upon the Tier 1 Battleships, not the Recons. It just happens that the Scorpian has similar bonuses as the Caldari Recons. It has a better Jam strength than the Scorp but no Jam range bonus.


The Widow's jamming strength is only equal to its lesser Recon brothers if you have Black Ops 5. This is assuming the other ship being compared has Recon 5. In effect, if you have both to 5 both ships have the same exact jam strength. Results will vary depending on the number of Hypnos Signal mods, of course.

Originally by: Rhohan
As mentioned before, I also see the BlackOps as more of a support ship and view it's weapons systems as more of a defensive measure. They are far easier to fit when you think of it like that.


As I do not fly the other Black Ops, I cannot speak for them in what their own problems are. Merely what I've discovered with the Widow.

The Widow's missile based defense measures are ... dodgy, at best. Horribly in trouble of assistance more than usually. Assuming cruise missiles, it doesn't have any capacity to adequately defend itself you can't call on your gang mates for. If anything, its ECM is what is supposed to be its defense. Both of these loop back into its horrid targeting problems and its inability to apply very direct means in a timely manner.

Originally by: Rhohan
If you are getting into one to be in a better Pvp ship, you are probably looking at it wrong. Take any Pvp role the BlackOps could fill, other than its primary, and you can find a far cheaper ship that does it better. I think that was the intent of the design, not a flaw in it.


I'm not getting into it for it to be a better PVP ship. I could get a Paladin or Kronos for that. What I'm trying to express is how the Widow is ONLY a Caldari jump-bridge ship. It's nothing else - nothing support capable by itself. You have absolutely no incentive or the reasonable ability to bring it directly onto the battlefield. If you must compare it to the other Black Ops, I would argue its fighting for last place in the sorting hierarchy of crappiness.

If it was intended solely for the purpose of being the Caldari Covert-line's Black Ops jump bridger, alright. The Widow can't adequately defend itself, the Widow can't adequately fight any targets by its own merits. It can't adequately target jam fast enough and it can't sniper jam without a range bonus. Heh, it doesn't even have the long-range base targeting TO sniper jam with.

Even as a support ship as you believe Black Ops to be, it is sub-par. An absolute last choice solution at best. I would really like it to have either better missile abilities, or much better targeting and jamming abilities.

[sigh] If you fly a Widow, do tell me how your experience is with it. Or, anyone else who does too. I'm all ears.

[edit #1] Haha! Rajere you posted that while I was making this one. :P /reads

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.09 04:47:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Rajere on 09/01/2009 04:53:40
Quote:
If you are getting into one to be in a better Pvp ship, you are probably looking at it wrong. Take any Pvp role the BlackOps could fill, other than its primary, and you can find a far cheaper ship that does it better. I think that was the intent of the design, not a flaw in it.

First, you'll need to clarify what you mean by "other than it's primary pvp role." Their primary pvp role is DPS, duh. With the exception of poorly fit widows, DPS is the only role they can possibly fulfill.

Second, Better? than what? Here's a list of ships you can directly compare blackops to:
Covert Ops Frigates
Force Recons

Alright lets compare them, shall we? Or how about we don't, since all 3 of them obviously fullfill different roles in a gang. Please note that the Falcon is a force recon and thus can be compared to the widow directly. In other words, you just proved your own opinion wrong. Actually, opinions can't really be proven, but by destroying the foundation which people build those opinions from, you can severely question the intelligence of those people holding said opinion by highlighting these flaws. So congrats, you proved that people who hold your opinion are idiots.

Even if you were to compare blackops to t1 battleships, they're not better or worse. They're just different, and used for different things. For a fleet fight on a gate/pos/whatever the t1 battleship is going to win hands down on isk cost alone. Even if the stats where reversed and the blackops had slightly better tank/fitting/dps than the t1 BSes, the difference isn't nearly enough to justify the difference in cost so you would still choose the t1 battleship 99% of the time. See faction battleships for proof of this. In fact, just like faction BSes, if you did choose to field a blackops for a straight up BS fight, it would be because it's a high isk value primary magnet. This allows you to setup an uber tank on a ship you'll know will be primaried making your RRing easier.

On the other hand, the blackops are unique, they have a carefully selected list of abilities which combined, allows them to fulfill a role that's been (intentionally) lacking since the force recon ships were added to the game. T1 battleships lack those abilities, thus they cannot be compared.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.01.09 05:30:00 - [24]
 

jeeeesus... more cloaking...?

and CERTAINLY NOT the cov ops cloak!

with a cov-ops-cyno-alt, they're pretty untouchable as i had to find out the boring, hard way

and plz fight a BO in a regular, non-sisi setup plz; i see the need to improve their usefulness, but certainly not their strength

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.09 06:05:00 - [25]
 

Quote:
I'm not getting into it for it to be a better PVP ship. I could get a Paladin or Kronos for that.

You've got that backwards. Marauders are PVE ships, they're pretty fail for pvp. I'm sure you could tweak their fits a bit and find some small niche to use one in, like sitting at a station sniping frigates with a paladin, etc, but in general they're an even-more-expensive-than-blackops T2 battleship that can be permajammed by a griffin. Since their engagement options* are identical to t1 battleships, You'd always have had the option to bring a raven instead of bringing a golem, thus they'll always be directed compared to t1 hulls. If a 500mil isk Raven (the Widow) is too expensive to PVP in, then how on earth is an 800mil isk Raven even an option? Nevermind the fact that the Widow can avoid/mitigate a huge amount of the risk involved while the Golem cannot.

Quote:
What I'm trying to express is how the Widow is ONLY a Caldari jump-bridge ship. It's nothing else - nothing support capable by itself. You have absolutely no incentive or the reasonable ability to bring it directly onto the battlefield. If you must compare it to the other Black Ops, I would argue its fighting for last place in the sorting hierarchy of crappiness.
Eh if it were only a jump bridge ship it would prove how fail the covert jump bridges are.

Before the missile formula change the Widow was without question the best blackops, it had the highest DPS *while at the same time* having the highest EHP, it was a beast. We didn't have any real widow pilots until right before the QR changes happened, so unfortunately we didnt' get a chance to demonstrate their awesomeness. Pretty much everyone else in eve had relegated the ships as being useless without Covert Ops cloaks, and the only people saying anything positive to defend them at all were widow pilots fitting out full ECMs, with a few token mods for active shield repping, talking how awesome they were at 1v1 duels. Le sigh.

The widow is still alright once you've made the necessary adjustments for QR. With only 75M3 drone bay and no free weapon hard points (unless you start taking away siege launchers) you pretty must devote your drone bay to anti-frigate duty, removing the previous 2xheavy 2xmed 1x light max dps drone configuration. You also need a TP fitted (or a full flight of TP drones) in order to deal full dps to battleships now. So you lose a bit of DPS and/or a bit of tank. overall the widow falls behind the Redeemer, i'd rank the widow pretty much equal/right above the Panther, which holds the "well atleast it's better than the sin" spot.

here's a nice clean kill if you'd like to compare them. Usually someone messes up on jumping in, wasn't in gang or had just joined and still had a bit of session change, or whatever, this kill though we all jumped at the same time. Note that the Widow was using Thermal torps while the Sin was hitting the explosive resist hole with Berserker IIs.

http://notr.darkfrontier.com/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17397

Mike C
Caldari
MicroFunks
Posted - 2009.01.09 08:54:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Mike C on 09/01/2009 08:56:35
My Ideal Widow: (Within Reason)


[Description]

Hull: Scorpion Class
Role: Black Ops

Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.

Developer: Kaalakiota
As befits one of the largest weapons manufacturers in the known world, Kaalakiota’s ships are very combat focused. Favoring the traditional Caldari combat strategy, they are designed around a substantial number of weapons systems, especially missile launchers. However, they have rather weak armor and structure, relying more on shields for protection.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 100% bonus to torpedo velocity per level

Black Ops Skill Bonus: 50% bonus to ECM target jammer strength and 96% to 100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level

Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators and covert jump portal generators. No targeting delay after decloaking

[End Description]

[Attributes]
Structure: 5469
Cargo Capacity: 1100m³
Drone Capacity: 125m³
Drone Bandwith: 125m³
Mass: 155,000,000 kg
Volume: 475,000.0m³ (50,000.0m³ packaged)
Inertia Modifier: 0.155
EM Dmg Resistance 0%
Explosive Dmg Resistance 0%
Kinetic Dmg Resistance 0%
Thermal Dmg Resistance 0%

Armor: 5469
Armor EM Dmg Resistance 50%
Armor Explosive Dmg Resistance 10%
Armor Kinetic Dmg Resistance 25%
Armor Thermal Dmg Resistance 55%

Shield: 5500
Shield Recharge Time: 2250.00 Sec.
Shield EM Dmg Resistance 0%
Shield Explosive Dmg Resistance 50%
Shield Kinetic Dmg Resistance 30%
Shield Thermal Dmg Resistance 40%

Capacitor Capacity: 5312
Capacitor Recharge Time: 1087.50 Sec.
Maximum Targeting Range: 95 km
Max Locked Targets: 7
Scan Resolution: 90
Gravimetric Sensor Strength: 48 points
Signature Radius: 432m

Jump Drive Capacitor Need: 95%
Maximum Jump Range: 2 ly
Jump Drive Fuel Need: Nitrogen Isotopes
Jump Drive Consumption Amount: 400

Max Velocity: 105 m/sec
Ship Warp Speed: 3 AU/S

[End Attributes]

[Fitting]

CPU: 775 tf
Powergrid: 9500 MW
Calibration: 400
Low Slots: 4
Mid Slots: 8
High Slots: 7
Launcher Hardpoints: 5
Upgrade Hardpoints: 2

[End Fitting]



EDIT 1
  • Corrected some CCP Typos in Description

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2009.01.09 08:59:00 - [27]
 

Nerf local == buff Black Ops ;)

XXJackXX
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.01.09 09:46:00 - [28]
 

Yes black ops need more buff coz they created to move recon/cov op/blockade runners.But still their jump bridge range is short and cargo is too limited after a ship jumped by bridge you out of fuel and had to refuel by blockade runners.Reducing the fuel requirment for that bridge for ships would be more usefull and some more range to that bridge.

Karazack
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2009.01.09 12:54:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Karazack on 09/01/2009 12:59:17
While I agree that the missing sig resolution bonus to make up for fitting the cloak and the short jump range is annoying I think that the most pressing issues are

- the missing fuelbay (or high fuel cost for bridging ships - comes to the same really), blockade runners, while being a nice feature are not really the solution to this, a temporary workaround at best

and

- the inability to bypass cyno jammers, with most 0.0 nowadays being cyno jammed the BO is basically useless outside NPC 0.0 space and low sec


I dont think that asking for covert ops cloaking or a damage boost or t2 resists have much chances of success though, that would produce some overpowered super recon/hac hybrid which we dont need imho

asking for the BO to perform its intendet role by fixing the above is not too much to ask on the other hand, I really hope it makes it into the march expansion, we are waiting too long already for this pre-nerfed content to be made useable

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2009.01.09 13:37:00 - [30]
 

base widow on rattlesnake instead of scorpion ...


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