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Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.07.24 11:58:00 - [241]
 

maybe some powergrid bonus on the turret cruisers would be nice too, specially for the maller as it lacks the ability to use drones and missiles.

besides that the changes are greatVery Happy

Nicodemous
Minmatar
PATORian Guard
Posted - 2004.07.24 12:59:00 - [242]
 

Edited by: Nicodemous on 24/07/2004 13:04:11

Originally by: Arthur Guinness
Rupture is powerful enough, doesn't need mroe dronebay.
It'd could do with maybe 10m/s more base speed, and 50grid more.
Everything else might make it a tad to powerfull.


Hrmph...

If it's powerful enough, then why am I (a Minmatar) flying a Caracal for combat, and using a Thorax for mining? The Rupture is junk - it's slow, has crap effective range, lowest DoT of all teir III cruisers, and needs serious help with anything over 100k bounty. It's a completely "down the middle" ship - not good at anything, but can muddle through almost everything, with help from an armor repairer. About the only thing going for it is durability.




Sofitia Mourtos
Zanjitsu
Posted - 2004.07.24 13:17:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: Armaki Kalear

I didn't mention this in my first post, but I think there's merit in what you say.



thank you.

Originally by: Armaki Kalear

Any skills we talk about here should pretty much only be considered up to level 4. If the person has had time to train level 5 skills they would soon move to a battleship mining platform.



I dont totaly agree with you there, since part of my point was that there was no reason to use a bs for mining (some will find that good - I'm sure the pirates will be unhappy) since you can get a just as good mining ship at basicly no cost (few mills).

empire mining: yes you are right ppl will be in a bs-miner if they have above lvl 4 in those skills

0.0 mining: mostly these are the serious miners who have been in the game for some time and they will mostlikely have mining/astro at 5/5 - also beeing a little more exprienced (older in eve-time) than the empire miners they will train cruiser lvl 5 since they want to get one of the (soon) comming tech2 cruisers (and beeing 0.0 miners they can afford it)

dcm mining: mining/astro 5/5 is a requirement for the skill so... and again same argument as the 0.0 miners these will get the cruiser skill to lvl 5 (I sure will)

Originally by: Armaki Kalear

Each miner 2 at Mining 4, Astro 4 brings in 86.4 m3
(I'm not sure where you got 41 from? Although I don't use them so maybe the boni stack in a way I'm not aware of)
Osprey total Ore per cycle = 466+144 = 610 m3
Scythe total Ore per cycle = 466+36 = 502 m3
The Maller can already fit 5 turrets and with 4 Total Ore per cycle = 432 m3
The Thorax on the other hand will do what the Maller can + drones, which makes it a hot contender.
Total Ore per cycle = 720 m3



if talking about empire mining then you are right you can use the m3 output as comparason - but you cant do that with 0.0 mining (or dcm mining) since there is some m3 wasted - you have to look at ore-output.

I agree with you on the empire mining thing osprey will _almost_ be the best cruiser - but it certainly will be the cheapest.. (i.e. useing 8basic drones instead of 4 harvestors cuts costs a lot)

0.0 Mining: asumeing mining/astro 5/5 which is common.
1x Miner II mining crok/bis/ark:
60x1.25x1.25 = 93.75m3
ore output: 93.75/16 = 5.86 -> 5ore/cycle

1x Miner II mounted on an osprey with lvl 5 cruiser:
1x Miner II mining crok/bis/ark:
60x1.25x1.25x2 = 187.5m3
ore output: 187.5/16 = 11.72 -> 11ore/cycle

pls note that that is 2.2 times the output...

Each harvestor does 2ore/cycle on crok/bis/ark

Osprey output: 3x 11 + 4x 2 = 41ore/cycle
Dominix output: 6x 5 + 15x 2 = 60ore/cycle (very few can use 15 drones)
Armargeddon: 7x 5 + 10x 2 = 55ore/cycle
Apocalypse: 8x 5 + 10x 2 = 60ore/cycle

Opsrey + harvestor price: ~ 15misk
Dominx + harvestor price: ~ 110misk
Geddon + harvestor price: ~ 100misk
Apoc + harvestor price : ~ 140misk

As I said accidents DO happen in 0.0 and you lose a ship now and then...... if you use a osprey you will get almost top performance (especialy if you dont use drones many dont) at a very low price/risk - you can use a dom/apoc at a very high price/risk and get somewhat more output but will it be worth it ? - especialy since bs's take a long time to replace out in 0.0 (usualy has to be moved from empire) - an osprey can usualy be build on location since it dont really require any mineral..

DCM Mining:
1x Dcm mining laser: 40x1.25x1.25 = 62.5m3
output: 62.5/40 = 1.56 -> 1ore/cycle

1x Dcm mining laser mounted on osprey with crusier lvl 5:
40x1.25x1.25x2 = 125m3
output: 125/40 = 3.125 -> 3ore/cycle

Apoc output: 8x 1 -> 8ore/cycle
Osprey output: 3x 3 -> 9pre/cycle

and I just testet the osprey is able to keep cap running for 3 dcm mining lasers (240cap for each laser each cycle)

if that is not overpowered then I really dont know what is..


Admiral IceBlock
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
Posted - 2004.07.24 13:44:00 - [244]
 

Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 24/07/2004 13:59:04
there is nothing wrong with the mining bonus'es, its great! battleships arent meant to be mining platforms, if they were, they would be called miningships instead of BATTLEships...

very good bonus, good work tomb! Very Happy

Inanna
Posted - 2004.07.24 13:57:00 - [245]
 

Awsome!!!

Rupture pilot here sayin you rock homie! My ship should be soon packin some serious heat!!!

Cool

Sofitia Mourtos
Zanjitsu
Posted - 2004.07.24 13:57:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
there is nothing from with the mining bonus'es, its great! battleships arent meant to be mining platforms, if they were, they would be called miningships instead of BATTLEships...


right.....

BUT mining is not exactly interesting -> more like borring, the little exitement there is in it is when your sitting in your 150misk bs-miner and risk loseing it..
if the replacement ship was (basicly) free then it would be even MORE borring...
if the price of an osprey was 200misk then I would be quite happy about this..

Also in aliance wars one of the (few) areas currently where you can inflict damage to ppl is if you find a enemy mining op (in bs's) and shoot them down..
Aliance warfare is going to get (even) less interesting when you there is no reason to go hunt the mining ships.

Admiral IceBlock
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
Posted - 2004.07.24 14:06:00 - [247]
 

mining in a osprey is going to be fun, becouse its something totally different than a standard mining apoc...

Quote:
Osprey output: 3x 11 + 4x 2 = 41ore/cycle
Dominix output: 6x 5 + 15x 2 = 60ore/cycle (very few can use 15 drones)
Armargeddon: 7x 5 + 10x 2 = 55ore/cycle
Apocalypse: 8x 5 + 10x 2 = 60ore/cycle


but anyway, the apoc is still the best miner?

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2004.07.24 14:22:00 - [248]
 

I must say I welcome the mining cruisers, although Caldari having better mining Cruiser than Amarr/Gallente is very missgiving. The fact the neither Scorpion nor Raven can mine, and that Osprey are rather weak, means that it will not really affect game balance too much, though.

Now, back to my heart subject: Gallente ships. Mainly Thorax, of course.
The way I see the changes to Thorax, it is a direct result of the faulty drone handling in EVE. That drones should really only shoot at targets within 6km, and not 30km, should be a little indication to how effective drones really are if not for the bug.
For the time being, the drone nerf is ok, as long as you promise to take a good look at all Gallente ships when drones get improved (nerf here, boost there, general loving everywhere), TomB.
But I wish to adress some possible addon bonuses for Thorax:
1. The +5% Tracking. As shown by the Thoraxes already operating now, this bonus is not at all needed.
2. +5% MWD boost. This bonus is... monotonous. See a (in my oppinion) better option below.
3. -5% Ship mass. This would mean that the ship will become faster, per level, regardless if it's an MWD or an AB being used.
4. +10% Tracking. This might actually mean that the Thorax' medium turrets might hit frigates, and would thus mean that the bonus will become an advantage instead of a nifty stat that I find +5% tracking is right now. I'll try and do some testing to determine how good the tracking bonus is, though.

- The Rax need a good bonus if it is to keep in line with the other cruisers now that it's main source of dread, it's drone bay, has been halved. Another low slot, med slot, or some fitting TF/MW would also be an option

@ rest of Gallente cruiser bonuses: neat.

Cruz
Out of Order
Posted - 2004.07.24 14:27:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Nicodemous
Edited by: Nicodemous on 24/07/2004 13:04:11

Originally by: Arthur Guinness
Rupture is powerful enough, doesn't need mroe dronebay.
It'd could do with maybe 10m/s more base speed, and 50grid more.
Everything else might make it a tad to powerfull.


Hrmph...

If it's powerful enough, then why am I (a Minmatar) flying a Caracal for combat, and using a Thorax for mining? The Rupture is junk - it's slow, has crap effective range, lowest DoT of all teir III cruisers, and needs serious help with anything over 100k bounty. It's a completely "down the middle" ship - not good at anything, but can muddle through almost everything, with help from an armor repairer. About the only thing going for it is durability.






LOL try telling that to Zelota who has killed who knows how many BSs and cruisers in a Rupture... too many to count.

Sofitia Mourtos
Zanjitsu
Posted - 2004.07.24 14:39:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
but anyway, the apoc is still the best miner?


Not for dcm mining - there the osprey is 12.5% more effecient - which is why I call it overpowered

Cruz
Out of Order
Posted - 2004.07.24 14:56:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Sofitia Mourtos
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
but anyway, the apoc is still the best miner?


Not for dcm mining - there the osprey is 12.5% more effecient - which is why I call it overpowered


And what makes you think the osprey can run 3 DCMs anyways?

BIRDofPREY
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.07.24 16:50:00 - [252]
 

Signature says it all....

Evil or Very Mad

Zaque Zundu
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.07.24 16:53:00 - [253]
 

I agree with all the people saying to change the Bellicose and Rupture bonuses, it just makes sense (although I don't think people will use the Bellicose unless they are staying pure Minmatar). As for the mining bonuses for the Osprey and Scythe, its about time the Caldari and Minmatar could mine, and I like that the ships themselves are different, the Osprey might have better fittings but the Scythe is much faster for getting away. I don't really like the Moa second bonus because of the CPR problem (although you could look at it like you can fit one CPR on without the penalty, compaired to before), but I would rather see something like the Maller bonus, +5% shield resists per level.

The Thorax drone bay nerf is a bit too harsh imho, only take it down to 1500 or 1250.

Cadman Weyland
Irn Bru Crew
Posted - 2004.07.24 17:09:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 24/07/2004 13:59:04
there is nothing wrong with the mining bonus'es, its great! battleships arent meant to be mining platforms, if they were, they would be called miningships instead of BATTLEships...

very good bonus, good work tomb! Very Happy


Bloody hell just saw a flying pig. Iceblock and I agree on something Razz

Cadman Weyland
Irn Bru Crew
Posted - 2004.07.24 17:11:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Cruz
Originally by: Sofitia Mourtos
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
but anyway, the apoc is still the best miner?


Not for dcm mining - there the osprey is 12.5% more effecient - which is why I call it overpowered


And what makes you think the osprey can run 3 DCMs anyways?


Hmm only ship ive managed tp get even 2 going on bar a bs is a Maller due to its big power core and cpu. Dunno if the Osprey will cope with 3.

akim
Posted - 2004.07.24 18:32:00 - [256]
 

I don't think the Thorax justifies a 50% dronebay nerf. Leave it at 1500 atleast. Sure it's got good dammage allready with blasters, but it doesnt realy have the speed to be a close range fighter anyways. And it gets pwned by missiles.

If you do decide to cut it all the way down to 1000m3, then atleast give it a speed or power boost. So it can be usefull in other roles.

Jocca Quinn
Matari BackBone
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2004.07.24 19:14:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Cruz
Originally by: Nicodemous
Edited by: Nicodemous on 24/07/2004 13:04:11

Originally by: Arthur Guinness
Rupture is powerful enough, doesn't need mroe dronebay.
It'd could do with maybe 10m/s more base speed, and 50grid more.
Everything else might make it a tad to powerfull.


Hrmph...

If it's powerful enough, then why am I (a Minmatar) flying a Caracal for combat, and using a Thorax for mining? The Rupture is junk - it's slow, has crap effective range, lowest DoT of all teir III cruisers, and needs serious help with anything over 100k bounty. It's a completely "down the middle" ship - not good at anything, but can muddle through almost everything, with help from an armor repairer. About the only thing going for it is durability.






LOL try telling that to Zelota who has killed who knows how many BSs and cruisers in a Rupture... too many to count.


If thats so I wish you'd get him to share his setup's on this forum.

After reading all through the previous pages I'm thinking I need to be training Amarr cruiser to 5, the thought of having 70%+ resistances across the board is VERY appealing. Much more than any optimal / missile damage bonus.

As for the argument that the tier 3 cruisers need more grid ... sorry I don't see it. I'm a cruiser only pilot, I have all the skills @ 4 and the only ship I have a problem fitting is the Rupture .. 4 x 720 makes the rest of the setup far too compromised.

JQ


kbuk
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2004.07.24 19:35:00 - [258]
 

This all looks good, The Scythe may need a little adding to it as it's inferior in almost every way to the Osprey.

On an Osprey / Scythe people will need cpu mods to run ANYTHING apart from the mining lasers. It's also going to need a cargo expander to fit the ore. with only 3 low slots this is going to be a very delicate balance.

Can I put in a request for a CPU need reduction skill for mining lasers Pref. 10% / level.

Kaladryn
KaYSeRiSPoR
Posted - 2004.07.24 19:36:00 - [259]
 

Edited by: Kaladryn on 24/07/2004 19:43:51
Normally I don't like to complain about nerfs, balance is more important. However, that being said, certain kinds of nerfs really **** me off, those being ones destroy "character" in the game.

Nerfing the Thorax drone bay that much destroys much of the essential character of the ship, besides the other overly harsh effects on its combat ability: drone damage accounts for nearly 50% of this ships damage output at close range, making this close to a 25% damage nerf.

It disappoints me to see one of the few ships with good character being grossly overnerfed to this extent.

(edit): after further reviewing the Vexor changes, I'd like to add that balance nerfing is something that sometimes has to be done, however role switching is something that should be done with more care. I personally became twice as angry when I found that my favorite ship not only got his primary ability taken away, but had it given to another. grrrrr

Siolan
Gallente
Resonant Dynamics
Posted - 2004.07.24 19:52:00 - [260]
 

Caldari are still overpowered. Their Railgun skills are superior to everyone else's gun skill modifiers. nerfed MWD's make blasters tough to use on Gallente ships, and I know I fit railguns to my ships even though they are gallente.

Missles are a bit different from smartbombs and guns, too. Missles have alot of range, an "all or nothing" hit, and have very good accuracy; there are countermeasures, but there are to turrets too, the missle ones are no more effective.

But that is a problem too! If you look at the spread, that means Caldari get Missle and Railguns as their "race" weapons, also the two most dangerous especially with pumped up bonuses. The other races only get one weapon each. Then factor in better ECM, much better shields (bonuses here too). You get an overpowered race. The other races do have their stongpoints, but nowhere near as many or as powerful as the Caldari.

The thorax dronebay nerf needs to be more balanced, at the least. I'm prepared to take that halving hit, as long as it gets an equally radical balancing, more stats, whatever. And if it does change, drones need to be put on high-priority. I will be flying a Vexor until the balance gets some things straightened out...

And those who say "Descriptions mean jack" or "Who cares about the description?" need to remember a VERY important fact... The Descriptions are pieces of the storyline. and without a storyline; you wouldn't have EVE. Sorry. Every game, especially EVE, begins (began) with a story. Take that away, the game never would have been made, much less succeed.


Cruz
Out of Order
Posted - 2004.07.24 20:28:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Jocca Quinn
Originally by: Cruz
Originally by: Nicodemous
Edited by: Nicodemous on 24/07/2004 13:04:11

Originally by: Arthur Guinness
Rupture is powerful enough, doesn't need mroe dronebay.
It'd could do with maybe 10m/s more base speed, and 50grid more.
Everything else might make it a tad to powerfull.


Hrmph...

If it's powerful enough, then why am I (a Minmatar) flying a Caracal for combat, and using a Thorax for mining? The Rupture is junk - it's slow, has crap effective range, lowest DoT of all teir III cruisers, and needs serious help with anything over 100k bounty. It's a completely "down the middle" ship - not good at anything, but can muddle through almost everything, with help from an armor repairer. About the only thing going for it is durability.






LOL try telling that to Zelota who has killed who knows how many BSs and cruisers in a Rupture... too many to count.


If thats so I wish you'd get him to share his setup's on this forum.

After reading all through the previous pages I'm thinking I need to be training Amarr cruiser to 5, the thought of having 70%+ resistances across the board is VERY appealing. Much more than any optimal / missile damage bonus.

As for the argument that the tier 3 cruisers need more grid ... sorry I don't see it. I'm a cruiser only pilot, I have all the skills @ 4 and the only ship I have a problem fitting is the Rupture .. 4 x 720 makes the rest of the setup far too compromised.

JQ




his setup consists of frig guns and BS afterburners... it a pity that inorder to make a cruiser good you need to resort to such things... Either way, even if you can fit 4x 720mms on a rupture you can STILL easily fit 2 more heavy launchers, can you do that on a maller... nope, 4 heavy beams and thats it, the rest of your low slots require all RCUs after that so You can fit a Med Armor Rep... lets not even go to MWD or Med Nosferatu, or maybe hell another gun...

xenorx
0utbreak
Posted - 2004.07.24 20:40:00 - [262]
 

I fly both Amarr and Caldari Cruisers. I love all the bonuses to them except for one. The 5% armor repairer bonus to the Omen. I fail to see where that is going to help it much.

The Omen is a good ship. It is by far the best looking ship IMO. However,it is just not excellent at anything. It only has a 300m3 drone bay. (That is pathetic!) And like all amarr cruisers it has a wasted Hi slot that cannot fit a turret.

Give the Omen some real love! Give it a drone bay that would compare to the thorax and vexor. And open up that high slot on Amarr cruisers for a turret.

Gee Man
Minmatar
Holy Knights
Posted - 2004.07.24 20:41:00 - [263]
 

Edited by: Gee Man on 24/07/2004 21:14:19
Originally by: TomB

Minmatar

Scythe
Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level
Addon: 20% bonus to mining laser yield per level

Bellicose
Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level
Addon: 10% bonus to Projectile Turret optimal range per level

Stabber
Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level
Addon: 5% bonus to max velocity per level

Rupture
Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level
Addon: 5% bonus to explosive damage missiles per level


No flames, give feedback.



I think this is heading in a good direction being a sole Minmatar ship pilot since release date. Based on my experience on flying these cruisers and judging what would be a nice 2nd bonus in the past, the following is what I would alter:

1. Rupture 2nd bonus
I think this should not be restricted to just explosive type damage, but just say "5% bonus to missile damage per level" seems much more desireable and also makes it less predictable for enemies to use the right counter-measures. This also makes up for the lack of cruise-missile capability which I missed so much :-( ---and I'm sure many other's missed! ;)

Additional comment: I read some posts that some may prefer it to be another turret-based bonus. This would not seem ok as the Rupture has a good balance of missile or turret weapons to use and many do like to use 3 missile bays like myself. Another turret bonus just simply unbalances it towards turrets more.

2. Bellicose 2nd bonus
Improving its drone capabilities would be more suitable as currently it's the largest drone carrying Minmatar cruiser, which makes more sense for minmatar drone maniacs to make use of. This could be an increase in drone space or drone damage per level, whichever is more apt.

I don't think the Bellicose needs a missile bonus as some mentioned, you would just use a Rupture if you wanted more missile power, Bellicose should tend towards its drone capabilities.

The other minmatar cruiser bonuses seem suitable so no changes on those in my opinion.


ps: I apologize if anyone else had mentioned my ideas in a previous reply, as I was unable to wade through the numerous replies on this subject and just had to get this one off my chest ;D

pps: I fly all these minmatar cruisers on a regular basis so have a good feel on these bonuses.

Gee Man
Minmatar
Holy Knights
Posted - 2004.07.24 21:24:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: TomB

Updated:
1. Bellicose got missile explosive dmg as 2nd bonus
2. Rupture got projectile optimal as 2nd bonus


Minmatar

Bellicose
Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level
Addon: 5% bonus to missile explosive damage per level

Rupture
Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level
Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret optimal range per level



Dang that was quick update!
But but ... 5% increase missile damage on Rupture is better please!

Bellicose bonus is not useful being both a Rupture and Bellicose pilot 24/7, believe me please please re-update please! :D
Stick increase drone bay +100 per level that would be sweeter.

Cheers.

ps: someone please back me up!

Ta'krite
Posted - 2004.07.24 21:25:00 - [265]
 

no to the scythe swap the scythe and stabber bonus's, the stabber is the most used minmitar cruiser for mining. or give the scythe a extra turret point.

Nieda
Minmatar
Black Sea Industries
Insurgency
Posted - 2004.07.24 21:31:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Gee Man

1. Rupture 2nd bonus
I think this should not be restricted to just explosive type damage, but just say "5% bonus to missile damage per level" seems much more desireable and also makes it less predictable for enemies to use the right counter-measures. This also makes up for the lack of cruise-missile capability which I missed so much :-( ---and I'm sure many other's missed! ;)

Additional comment: I read some posts that some may prefer it to be another turret-based bonus. This would not seem ok as the Rupture has a good balance of missile or turret weapons to use and many do like to use 3 missile bays like myself. Another turret bonus just simply unbalances it towards turrets more.



I disagree here. As a minmatar I would like to see us specialize in projectile weapons, not in missles. Swap Billicose and Rupture bonuses now, or make Rupture mini-tempest by giving it 5% turret damage per level.

Cruz
Out of Order
Posted - 2004.07.24 21:49:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: Nieda
Originally by: Gee Man

1. Rupture 2nd bonus
I think this should not be restricted to just explosive type damage, but just say "5% bonus to missile damage per level" seems much more desireable and also makes it less predictable for enemies to use the right counter-measures. This also makes up for the lack of cruise-missile capability which I missed so much :-( ---and I'm sure many other's missed! ;)

Additional comment: I read some posts that some may prefer it to be another turret-based bonus. This would not seem ok as the Rupture has a good balance of missile or turret weapons to use and many do like to use 3 missile bays like myself. Another turret bonus just simply unbalances it towards turrets more.



I disagree here. As a minmatar I would like to see us specialize in projectile weapons, not in missles. Swap Billicose and Rupture bonuses now, or make Rupture mini-tempest by giving it 5% turret damage per level.


they did just change it infact.

Kalast Raven
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.07.24 22:00:00 - [268]
 

Maybe give thorax 5% per level to Medium Hybrid ROF, a much better bonus than tracking, and leave drone bay nerf as is.

Also, the amarr cruisers, excepting the arbitrtator, seem to all fill the same role in different ways. A clearer distinction of roles needs to be imposed. Give one of them Laser damage or laser rof, or laser range or tracking. They all seem to focus on armor tanking, you don't need 3 cruisers to do the same job.

The minmatar cruiser Scythe seems underpowered compared to it's cousin, the osprey. Not sure how this could be fixed, may require cpu nerf on the osprey, and a cargohold boost for Scythe.


Sewell
The Happy Spacemen
Posted - 2004.07.24 23:04:00 - [269]
 

Quote:
Rupture: Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret optimal range per level


This really means +10% optimal range, right?

Kira Natel
Posted - 2004.07.24 23:24:00 - [270]
 

Just my opinion, but nerfing the Thorax is a mistake. I like to mine and got this ship because it is the best cruiser for the job. But nerfing the miner is an old story with CCP.


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