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Lexander Morinex
Caldari
LDD Investments
Posted - 2008.12.30 20:13:00 - [1]
 

So many of the basic problems with the attribute system go back to Charisma. I am willing to accept that there are subtle differences in the benefits of Mem/Int/Per/Wil but a balanced set of these attributes is fine. Not only that, if you boost one at the cost of the other then you are essentially just changing out what you get first.

I would argue that in online games a stat like Charisma is a holdover to the pen and paper world. Few computer games have ever used this stat well, and this is even more true in an interactive game. Players interact based upon the actual charisma of the human beings playing the avatars.

The Charisma attribute is primary for Leadership and Social skills and a mix of primary/secondary for Trade/Corp Management skills. There are two basic problems with this attribute, and they work together to create the bulk of the issues related to attribute selection.

One, there are too few skills that use Charisma as a base to begin with. This creates an unusual disparity for this one attribute. You can find many skills that rely on the other four, but these four tend to be limited. Oddly enough, it turns out that coming up with excuses to use Charisma is just as hard in this online game as it is in just about all the other ones.

Two, and perhaps more problematic, you can easily forgo the consequences of low Charisma.

Leadership is a special case. If you don't want leadership skills you can do just fine without them unless you intend to run fleet actions. However, if you need to be a Fleet Commander then you are going to have a bit of a climb. But more often than not you want your leader to be a higher SP character, one who can fight a good ship with decent skill. In that case, you would have wanted to spend a lot of time gaining skills that don't use Charisma.

Having a low CHA as a secondary can make certain Trade/Corp Management skills take more time. But the effect of a low secondary skill is much lower, and the gains you get for putting those points into other areas is higher. I would normally recommend even a dedicated trader have low Charisma. Just start them out with the trading skills and put the other four high. The only critical roadblocks that are painful are going to be Retail V and Wholesale V. With a little patience the fact these two skills take longer won't be an issue. In the meantime, this trader character will be much faster at flying the ships that are needed.

Having poor Social skills is annoying, but you can do okay with Level IV instead of V for most of these skills and Diplomacy is a Rank 1 skill so you can suffer to get it to V (or just have it start at 5).

So, what we have is an attribute that is completely out of whack with the other attributes. Even worse, only a couple of templates allow you to start this attribute low. Many of them actually force your Charisma higher. The end result is the very unsurprising fact that the game is filled with ugly looking Achura's like me (hey, at least that got that part right, low Charisma characters SHOULD be ugly).

In my opinion, the issue isn't that players should worry too much about having bad attributes. The issue is they should worry about having too much Charisma. In my opinion, this attribute should be junked. Since that isn't going to happen, new character templates should allow this stat to start at 3 with something other than Caldari.

Perhaps CCP will allow players to go through a horrible process that scars them up but grants them improvements in Mem/Int/Per/Wil. A few scars never hurt.

- Lexander Morinex

Kyanzes
Amarr
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2008.12.30 20:17:00 - [2]
 

Laughing

Dark Soldat
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.12.30 20:17:00 - [3]
 

If you dont want to read the above post.
Heres a shorter version.

CHARISMA SUX.

Lexander Morinex
Caldari
LDD Investments
Posted - 2008.12.30 20:52:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Dark Soldat
If you dont want to read the above post.
Heres a shorter version.

CHARISMA SUX.



Cool

Pretty much the abridged version. But I have never been one to read the abridged version. It is one thing to say that Charisma is a bad attribute, another reason to defend the statement with an argument. Your mileage may vary.

- Lexander Morinex

Irida Mershkov
Gallente
The Reformed
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.30 23:20:00 - [5]
 

Or... just add more charisma based skills. More leadership ones could start, then maybe another selection of skills.


Hehe, make the T3 skills require Charisma as the sole attribute to screw over the Achura min/maxers.

8 base charsima ftw. balanced out all my stats baby.

Horchan
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.30 23:34:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Hehe, make the T3 skills require Charisma as the sole attribute to screw over the Achura min/maxers.

This.

Kyanzes
Amarr
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2008.12.31 00:17:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Horchan
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Hehe, make the T3 skills require Charisma as the sole attribute to screw over the Achura min/maxers.

This.


Also make them Tier 8 by default Laughing

Irida Mershkov
Gallente
The Reformed
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.31 01:02:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kyanzes
Originally by: Horchan
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Hehe, make the T3 skills require Charisma as the sole attribute to screw over the Achura min/maxers.

This.


Also make them Tier 8 by default Laughing

This this this this this.

CCP you best be taking notes.

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2008.12.31 06:23:00 - [9]
 

Amarr/Amarr can start with 3 chrisma.

But my alt also has like 16 base Willpower. heh.

Jack Winters
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.01.01 19:57:00 - [10]
 


Master Jeeves
Posted - 2009.01.02 09:34:00 - [11]
 

When I first started I just distributes my points quite evenly since I had no idea how the points worked at the time. Now I'm stuck with 19-20 charisma and I'm kicking myself for it >:[

Sanzorz
Amarr
Mark Of Chaos
Posted - 2009.01.02 10:04:00 - [12]
 

It's kinda hard to imagine what Charisma can do, when you're learning skills from a computer in your pod.

To make Charisma better it could have an impact on trades and the likes, just like the many pen and paper games. Besides that perhaps it could be changed to be a Tierary (sp?) stat on ALL other skills, so it only boosts skill rate slightly.

Kitfox Shachi
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.02 11:07:00 - [13]
 

Even in pen and paper games alot of players fortfeit charisma and stack their other (mainly combat related) attributes.
It all has to do with optimal combat munchkineering.

I dont see anything wrong with games like Shadowrun, AD&D having CHA related skills nor any other game. Sure players end up often over or under playing their character Charisma stat but that is where the GM comes into play to curb things down to IC vs OOC abilities.

The problem with eve is not the fact that charisma exsists and its not really needed.
The core of the problem is that the very few skills that require charisma most players can do without or find ways to get the skills without heavy investment into charisma.

The quick solution would be to introduce a whole new range of skill categories that have charisma as a main stat. not just more skills into the current social/trade categories but maybe something new.
Who knows maybe the wormholes come expansion lead to a space which does not recognise our language and you may need certain skills just to unlock interaction options with the new worlds (if they actually can be found beyond the wormholes).

Maybe introduce a whole new arsenal of skills and modules for the T3 ships that allow you to plug into your ship rather than pilot it the good old fashion way. Make the new modules/skills all charisma based after all how your persona interacts with the ship is how your say weapons interacts with the world. Psionic array of weapons/modules maybe.

Who knows it may infuse a new blood into the current PvP system. Imagine the non combat oriented traders who might have high charisma going for some of these psionic interfaces to get benefits similar to the more combat oriented pilots (read inferior but still better than nothing).

Yelan Zhou
Amarr
Ba.theen Aljannatal Asaakitah
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2009.01.02 13:58:00 - [14]
 

Ships crews, wich can boost your ship in various ways.And for all related skills one needs Charisma.Laughing

Lexander Morinex
Caldari
LDD Investments
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:26:00 - [15]
 

Even though I only have 3 Charisma, I for one would be glad to see more charisma based skills.

The challenge in a game based on scams, warfare, and heavy player interaction is that the only charisma that truly matters is your own. Your characters charisma is only useful when they can construct a skill that obviously need charisma to work.

I don't mind the attribute in games like D&D though it often ended up being the sink for 'the one bad roll'. In those game the story can be designed to support it.

If they can construct a new range of skills that require charisma, and then turn around and make some of those skills chained enough that being short on charisma is painful, then the situation will be much better. As it is, with enough learning skills low charisma can be worked around.

But as long as the game depends mostly on how well you fly your ship and how accurately you shoot, your ability to be charming won't mean much.

- Lexander Morinex

Ryuga VonRhaiden
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.01.03 16:20:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Yelan Zhou
Ships crews, wich can boost your ship in various ways.And for all related skills one needs Charisma.Laughing


This one totally wins.

A new array of crew-related modules and a whole new "Crew Command" (Cha/Wil) field of related skills... perhaps something more like a new set of "rigs", the "crew quarters" slots, with specialized crew teams doing stuff*, and new "Crew Training" skills set for "crafting" crews...


* = "doing stuff" is the most lacking part of the whole idea... having "more of the same" as rigs do would be pointless (just stacking more and more bonuses is bad), they should do new things, maybe increase ewar base effects and have them do some kind of counter-ewar stuff, improving signature of ships, scan resolution of ships and/or weapons, doing mostly electronics related things, where rigs are quite lacking...

...also we could alter the way cloaking works, and have crews improve cloaking parameters (i.e. have cloaks consume cap and crews reduce cap consumption, or increase max uncloak distance to 5km and have crews reduce it back to 2 or less, or let non-covops cloaks be findable with probes and have crews make it harder to find the ship and such)

...crews could also improve with time if they are not changed, so older-surviving ships would have better crews and an older "experienced" raven would be a bit better than a newly-built one...

It would be a whole new can of worms to open, but great ideas and lots of new stuff could come out of it...

Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
Halinallen veroparatiisi
Inglorious Carebears
Posted - 2009.01.04 22:52:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Horchan
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Hehe, make the T3 skills require Charisma as the sole attribute to screw over the Achura min/maxers.

This.



This this this!

Loraen
Posted - 2009.01.05 16:22:00 - [18]
 

I'm pretty sure there are new charisma-primary skills on the horizon. Walking in stations? I'm sure they'll add skills to own and manage your bar, store, whatever and very likely charisma is needed. Same goes for the bits of the first level of planetary interaction (viceroy-ing) they've shown us.

Billy Sastard
Amarr
Life. Universe. Everything.
Posted - 2009.01.05 17:27:00 - [19]
 

Hrm.. All that having a low charisma did to me was teach me to be more patient when I decided to focus on leadership.

All this discussion on attributes and all it really boils down to is patience, no REAL effects in game at all, yet here we are, go figure Wink

Ivana Drake
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.05 17:32:00 - [20]
 

OP just wants to re-roll a char that isn't ugly methinks.

The Medusa
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.01.05 17:43:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Lexander Morinex
So many of the basic problems with the attribute system go back to Charisma. I am willing to accept that there are subtle differences in the benefits of Mem/Int/Per/Wil but a balanced set of these attributes is fine. Not only that, if you boost one at the cost of the other then you are essentially just changing out what you get first.

I would argue that in online games a stat like Charisma is a holdover to the pen and paper world. Few computer games have ever used this stat well, and this is even more true in an interactive game. Players interact based upon the actual charisma of the human beings playing the avatars.

The Charisma attribute is primary for Leadership and Social skills and a mix of primary/secondary for Trade/Corp Management skills. There are two basic problems with this attribute, and they work together to create the bulk of the issues related to attribute selection.

One, there are too few skills that use Charisma as a base to begin with. This creates an unusual disparity for this one attribute. You can find many skills that rely on the other four, but these four tend to be limited. Oddly enough, it turns out that coming up with excuses to use Charisma is just as hard in this online game as it is in just about all the other ones.

Two, and perhaps more problematic, you can easily forgo the consequences of low Charisma.

Leadership is a special case. If you don't want leadership skills you can do just fine without them unless you intend to run fleet actions. However, if you need to be a Fleet Commander then you are going to have a bit of a climb. But more often than not you want your leader to be a higher SP character, one who can fight a good ship with decent skill. In that case, you would have wanted to spend a lot of time gaining skills that don't use Charisma.

Having a low CHA as a secondary can make certain Trade/Corp Management skills take more time. But the effect of a low secondary skill is much lower, and the gains you get for putting those points into other areas is higher. I would normally recommend even a dedicated trader have low Charisma. Just start them out with the trading skills and put the other four high. The only critical roadblocks that are painful are going to be Retail V and Wholesale V. With a little patience the fact these two skills take longer won't be an issue. In the meantime, this trader character will be much faster at flying the ships that are needed.

Having poor Social skills is annoying, but you can do okay with Level IV instead of V for most of these skills and Diplomacy is a Rank 1 skill so you can suffer to get it to V (or just have it start at 5).

So, what we have is an attribute that is completely out of whack with the other attributes. Even worse, only a couple of templates allow you to start this attribute low. Many of them actually force your Charisma higher. The end result is the very unsurprising fact that the game is filled with ugly looking Achura's like me (hey, at least that got that part right, low Charisma characters SHOULD be ugly).

In my opinion, the issue isn't that players should worry too much about having bad attributes. The issue is they should worry about having too much Charisma. In my opinion, this attribute should be junked. Since that isn't going to happen, new character templates should allow this stat to start at 3 with something other than Caldari.

Perhaps CCP will allow players to go through a horrible process that scars them up but grants them improvements in Mem/Int/Per/Wil. A few scars never hurt.

- Lexander Morinex



tldr

if you are ugly, do not blame skills... Get some implants to make you pretty you ugly caldari wanna-be pod pilot.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2009.01.05 20:57:00 - [22]
 

An alternative is to "extremify" Charisma on all existing and future characters. I can't come up with the perfect formula for doing so, but basically pick one value as "base", e.g. 10, and then all Charisma values under base gets reduced, with the reduction being greater the lower the value is relative to the base. Likewise, all Charisma values over "base" gets increased, with the increase being larger the higher Charisma is.

The effect is somewhat similar to having Charisma points cost less than the other four attributes, so that if you want to "sell down" Charisma in order to buy something else, you have to sell down Charisma by 6 points (or even 9 points!) in order to be able to buy 3 points of something else. Likewise, if you want a very high Charisma, you can get that fairly easily, since it is cheap to raise.

Such a one-time modification (applied to existing characters, and then also to all new characters right after creation) acknowledges the fact that Charisma is less useful than the other attributes, and gives reward and punishment to those players who chose to go for a very high or low value, with the severity of the reward depending on part on how many Charisma-based skillz those characters have already picked.

Tale Chaser
Posted - 2009.01.07 10:41:00 - [23]
 

charisma is a problem, i have 23 points there.. will be more after +5's and the final learning skills are done some time this year.. (wait, i think it already has a +5... oh well).

years ago, this meant that i wanted to make a great leadership character.. untill i realized that it would require me to have RL abilities to back those up... and so i pretty much gave up on that idea (4.8 mill in leadership anyway)..

BUT, i think more charisma skills would be awesome...

for ME, charisma+perception skills would be great, lol... but i cant invision something like that (Business Survelince 3% off the cost of renting a bar, because you reduce peanut theft)

more charisma skills that dont suck FTW!!


Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2009.01.07 11:33:00 - [24]
 

I also agree with some crew coordination skills, in a new category, just as rigging was a new category. Have say a Crew Command skill, which might affect overall crew capabilities, then some specialized command skills for specific crew types, fire control, navigation, engineering, etc.

The Viceroy type metagame is something I've been wanting for a LONG time. seems odd that the elite pod pilots have NOTHING to do with the masses down there on the planets.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2009.01.07 15:55:00 - [25]
 

I'm hoping that the station based skills that are bound to come in with internet walking as I like to call it will have a Charisma component

Tandin
The Knights Templar
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.01.07 18:46:00 - [26]
 

Apparently, most of you have never examined command ships in depth. To use those effectively requires a lot of charisma related training. It helps that several of them are excellent for PvP.

Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2009.01.08 16:49:00 - [27]
 

Only way I'd favor charisma becoming more important would be to allow everyone to re-pick race & attributes afterwards. The whole point of having alterable attributes is to specialize a character - bait & switch would **** a lot of people off. So would just dropping charisma sadly, because people have made sacrifices to have high charisma that would be pointless if they just dropped the stat.

Lexander Morinex
Caldari
LDD Investments
Posted - 2009.01.08 19:09:00 - [28]
 

I personally favor adding more Charisma skills. If the utility of Charisma skills were improved, and there were simply a better balance of these skills, then the problem would solve itself.

- Lexander

SiJira
Posted - 2009.01.08 19:13:00 - [29]
 

the scarring thing sounds interesting for ambulation

after you get into too many fights and end up losing consciousness you lose charisma from the scars and become more paranoid Evil or Very MadShocked

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2009.01.13 18:56:00 - [30]
 

But when you get podded and end up in a new clone all those scars would go away.

I totally agree that the weakness of charisma is annoying because it creates so many Achura monks. Personally, I never went that way only because I didn't know how the skill system worked, but I'm quite happy to have a realtively well rounded toon.

I'd be even more happy with more Charisma driven skills.

(and I really like the crew idea, maybe with bigger effects achievable with bigger ships that need bigger crews)

How about changing concord response time for more likeable characters :)


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