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blankseplocked Neutrals aiding war targets !!!
 
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Dinamita Tona
Minmatar
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.27 15:02:00 - [1]
 

Since recent patches ( I know we had this problem before ) I have noticed raise in neutrals aiding war targets. Those neutrals aren't just alts or friend, on several occasions same ship aided one then opposite side. Call remote sensor boosters, remote repairing, remote cap transfers, whatever you may need neutrals can provide. And I have no problem with that.
However I have problem, as many others have, with a fact that neutral aiding isn't designated as aggression, so they can dock or jump instantly without any danger or penalties to them.
Its kind of weird that neutral aiding criminal and suicider for concord is also criminal, and as such he cant dock or jump or do anything until concord kill his ship.
In regular empire wars where red flashing ship is almost on every gate for who knows what reason, such flag just isn't enough.
Neutrals aiding war targets should be designated as such. For example neutral guardian that repairs engaged Astarte should be designated as legal target, but not as red flashing ship but as war target with automatically -10 rating, duration 24 hours.
In addition their actions should be recognized as aggression as well, maybe even with greater penalties than for regular war targets ( as they have on own will engaged in war that does not consider them ), but at least they should have following:
- 90 secs docking penalty
- 90 secs jumping penalty
I believe such change will make pvp more interesting and risky as it should be. Not that one corp leaves alliance takes 5 oneiroses and rep one Armageddon. Then they dock, and dock again and dock again, in meantime war targets is practically immune to damage, or in worst case it can dock or jump.

In engagements with more than 6-7 ships on both sides, looking for a flashing ships that could aid opponent is a big problem. To kill them under this circumstances impossible.
ExclamationExclamation
Or is this a way to make more people to buy neutral alts??Question

I would like to hear your opinion on this issue, and fast fix as suggested.


Nephilius
Caldari
Pillage and Plunder Salvage Co.
Posted - 2008.12.27 15:05:00 - [2]
 

I'm still relatively new, so forgive my ignorance...when you say neutral, are you talking about a PC or NPC?

Dinamita Tona
Minmatar
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.27 15:07:00 - [3]
 

NPCs cant aid, only human players can.

Slave 775
Ministry of Punishment
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.27 15:20:00 - [4]
 

in before the:

"adapt or die" Tard

the

"Pirate tears are delicious" idiot

the

"Fight in 0.0 like real men do" fleet drone

and the

"CCP knows whats good for us" fanboi

thoraxius demioses
Gallente
no goats here
Posted - 2008.12.27 15:23:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: thoraxius demioses on 27/12/2008 15:23:21
wel i agree with the OP Very Happy

its pretty annoying to those who do empire war and have wartargets only overview, like they should.. they wont notice a ship flashing red 90km away. or behind a station. but the normal aggro penlty of aggression wil do fine

Onys Cissalc
Posted - 2008.12.27 15:44:00 - [6]
 

You don't like it now, but what would happen if you're trying to remote support your mate during your war, and find neither of you can dock while remote repairing eachother, because it's constantly refreshing your aggro? Or maybe you're on a gate, trying to deaggro to jump, but the remote repair keeps refreshing the aggro, etc.



Besides, prevent them from docking and they'll simply create battleship RR gangs that assist your wartargets, and if you attack them they violence your face off. That or they simply join the corp you're at war with and send a blob after you - you'd be just as annoyed at that, because now the numbers are too great for you to handle.



Unfortunately, this is very much a case of adapt or die. If there are people remoting your wartargets, get a dedicated jammer in to purposefully jam any logistics. They thus can't repair their target anyway, and if they redock to go fetch something they can use to come kill your jammer with, they're again not repairing anyway, and are 'wasting time' they could be using to remote support the friendlies.


They are making legit use of current game mechanics. You don't want to use the mechanics available to you to counter their activities and instead come to ask that they be penalised because of this.




Privateers really has gone to the dogs lately...

thoraxius demioses
Gallente
no goats here
Posted - 2008.12.27 15:48:00 - [7]
 

uhm what dina means is only the guy doing the remote repping gets the aggro timer. and i prefer thye join the corp.. atleast then its easier to spot them.

de aggroíng is basicly taking your reps off your buddy,. i think your completly missing the point onys.






Dinamita Tona
Minmatar
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.27 15:57:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Dinamita Tona on 27/12/2008 16:00:50
Originally by: Onys Cissalc
You don't like it now, but what would happen if you're trying to remote support your mate during your war, and find neither of you can dock while remote repairing eachother, because it's constantly refreshing your aggro? Or maybe you're on a gate, trying to deaggro to jump, but the remote repair keeps refreshing the aggro, etc.



Besides, prevent them from docking and they'll simply create battleship RR gangs that assist your wartargets, and if you attack them they violence your face off. That or they simply join the corp you're at war with and send a blob after you - you'd be just as annoyed at that, because now the numbers are too great for you to handle.



Unfortunately, this is very much a case of adapt or die. If there are people remoting your wartargets, get a dedicated jammer in to purposefully jam any logistics. They thus can't repair their target anyway, and if they redock to go fetch something they can use to come kill your jammer with, they're again not repairing anyway, and are 'wasting time' they could be using to remote support the friendlies.


They are making legit use of current game mechanics. You don't want to use the mechanics available to you to counter their activities and instead come to ask that they be penalised because of this.




Privateers really has gone to the dogs lately...

you really didnt read what i wrote, and your conclusion is like,
I'll have guns activated why i cant jump

and yes we are dogs of war

Hesperius
Posted - 2008.12.27 18:51:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Hesperius on 27/12/2008 18:51:48
A friend of mine petitioned this when we were in the faction war, the rules of engagement went something like this:

***

If a war target has logistics assisting it, you must first engage your war target. Any neutral pilots providing assistance to your enemy while you have an aggression timer with that enemy pilot can now be engaged.

***

To verify, scroll over your aggression timer in the upper left hand of your screen.


Slave 775
Ministry of Punishment
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.27 20:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Hesperius
Edited by: Hesperius on 27/12/2008 18:51:48
A friend of mine petitioned this when we were in the faction war, the rules of engagement went something like this:

***

If a war target has logistics assisting it, you must first engage your war target. Any neutral pilots providing assistance to your enemy while you have an aggression timer with that enemy pilot can now be engaged.

***

To verify, scroll over your aggression timer in the upper left hand of your screen.




The problem is the neutral can dock or jump anytime while they assist the wartarget.
So if they get in trouble they simply dock or jump.

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2008.12.27 23:21:00 - [11]
 

When a neutral remote repair (RR) a wartarget of yours, will he be flagged to the whole corp or only those agressed to the one he RR?

When roaming around in low sec in RR BS the option of deagressing and remote rep eachother until we can jump is a important feature. Especially when you get blobbed or hotdropped. Giving RR a agression would make it alot less versatile.

Onys Cissalc
Posted - 2008.12.28 07:50:00 - [12]
 

Akiba, you get flagged to the entire alliance that your remote rep target is at war with, if they're at war with an alliance.


Dinamita, I read your entire post, and I took into consideration what you said. To cut some of the fluff short, I did not say that privateers are 'dogs of war', I essentially said "they've gone to crap, they suck now and do nothing but whine".


I'll leave more of that for a different thread tho.


Let me paint for you a verbal picture.



Corporation A and Corporation B hate eachother. They go to war.

Corporation C is an intermediary that has invested interests in either of these corps; unfortunately, even as a shareholder, their vote was only one of many and they were unable to preven the war from starting.

Corporation C has no interest in joining either of these other corporations, but would like to protect their investment. They have available to them the following:

Acting as a logistics platform for the corp they wish to aid (this is moving-stuff-around logistics, not SHE-CANNE-TAKE-MUCH-MORE-CAP'N logistics)
Providing remote repair for the corp they wish to aid
Providing drone/ammo dropping during engagements for the corp they wish to aid


I know people hate it when real world comparisons are made, but I feel they are necessary as the majority of EVE's mechanics are in fact based on real world principles and what and cannot be done in the real world. If it weren't we'd be able to shoot bears anywhere in EVE without CONCORD repercussions, so hush up and read.


Corporation C, or Individual1-of-Many is a civilian entity.
As a civilian entity, they do not get directly involved in the fight, but bring aid to those they wish to support.
In the real world, civilians do not become war-duration of long-time-duration targets of the opposing country's military; if they are found to be aiding this military's intended target, then they may be stopped then and there (often without use of lethal force mind you).
If they do attempt to use lethal force, then the civilian is allowed, by various UN treaties, to defend themselves through the use of lethal force, if they so choose.
Whether either side does so or not is their choice, and they are responsible for dealing with any repercussions their actions may bring.


HOWEVER


Those civilians, if ignored, do not proceed to get hunted down by the military; hell, they're often not identifiable anyway, you should consider yourself lucky that you're even able to see the name of the person aiding your wartargets in EVE.

Thus, they should not become extended-time targets for you to chase down. If they run, you're supposed to 'forget' about them and focus on your wartargets again.




Beyond that, there are situations, as Akiba pointed out, where remote repair chains are your last means of survival when trying to deaggro and get away from a blob that has come down on you at a gate. They are by no means invulnerable while deaggroing - in fact, if you bump them out of the pitiable 8.4km range their remote repair modules have, they become as vulnerable as a pilot with his own cap hungry tank and no boosters left for his injector.

Remote repair in EVE very much is an 'adapt or die' situation. There are MANY tools available to you to counter them, and MANY ways to avoid having to deal with them at all; whether you make use of these tools or methods is your own choice and/or problem.

Dinamita Tona
Minmatar
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.28 09:28:00 - [13]
 

so everyone is satisfied with current mechanics??

and then you all are suprised why you have blobs on gates, stations, trade hubs etc








Dinamita Tona
Minmatar
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.28 09:56:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Onys Cissalc
Akiba, you get flagged to the entire alliance that your remote rep target is at war with, if they're at war with an alliance.


incorrect only to people that engaged target reped by neutral
( with your great pvp exp you should know that )

Originally by: Onys Cissalc

Dinamita, I read your entire post, and I took into consideration what you said. To cut some of the fluff short, I did not say that privateers are 'dogs of war', I essentially said "they've gone to crap, they suck now and do nothing but whine".


we had several threads in which our wts whine not us,
on other hand your alt posting shows your character and your pvp orientation
my guess you are caldari pilot missioning whole day, whining why can i be not immune to wardecs

Originally by: Onys Cissalc

Beyond that, there are situations, as Akiba pointed out, where remote repair chains are your last means of survival when trying to deaggro and get away from a blob that has come down on you at a gate. They are by no means invulnerable while deaggroing - in fact, if you bump them out of the pitiable 8.4km range their remote repair modules have, they become as vulnerable as a pilot with his own cap hungry tank and no boosters left for his injector.

Remote repair in EVE very much is an 'adapt or die' situation. There are MANY tools available to you to counter them, and MANY ways to avoid having to deal with them at all; whether you make use of these tools or methods is your own choice and/or problem.


as many other things everything is allowed until CCP decides is an exploit or unwanted advantage

all this nerfs trying to make world safer for players - make blobs only solution -
blob is atm answer for everything as there is no countermeasures for some engagements

if we must have 20 ships to kill 1 frig i have no problem with that, but then don't whine why we make blobs

And to point out again, one corp left alliance and then remote reped friends
i would say that's cheating, but game mechanics allow that so its ok i guess.

If that is way to go, OK, I already adapted and already have remote neutral repers.

Problem is that this is more and more rule and not isolated cases, so we may soon have 2 sides with 5 bses on each side and with 20 neutrals on each side helping in battle. Again, if that is way to go...


Onys Cissalc
Posted - 2008.12.28 11:08:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Onys Cissalc on 29/12/2008 09:55:15
Originally by: "Dinamita Tona"
Originally by: "Onys Cissalc"
Akiba, you get flagged to the entire alliance that your remote rep target is at war with, if they're at war with an alliance.




incorrect only to people that engaged target reped by neutral
( with your great pvp exp you should know that )


Wrong.


If corporation A is at war with Alliance A and individual or corporation B member comes to remote support any member of corporation A, then the whole of Alliance A is allowed to shoot at that individual.


The same applies to:

Can flagging
Global Criminal flagging in low-sec
Aggression Flags, whether shooting as been done or not, transfer


You can go and test all of this if you don't believe me. I would know how it works given I make use of these mechanics extensively.



Originally by: "Dinamita Tona"
we had several threads in which our wts whine not us,


Quantity != Quality.


Just because someone that would whine if a fly was in the room comes to whine on the forums, does not mean they are worth taking note of. Considering that you are complaining about something that you don't even understand, you are, as a member of Privateers, acting as poor representation.

Privateers used to be an Alliance we found amusing and interesting - players like you that come to demonstrate overall ignorance of game mechanics, and call for changes to things you don't understand fully, only further sully their image.



Originally by: "Dinamita Tona"
on other hand your alt posting shows your character and your pvp orientation


My, how blissfully ignorant and arrogant you are. I live in South Africa, we have very poor proxying going on at our ISPs - hell, some of the ISPs' users can't even connect to the EVE servers, let alone log into or use the credit card facilities on the site.

My settings for the forums are reset all the time, and I have to keep logging back in. The default character for this account, for whatever strange reason, is Onys Cissalc. My main on the account is AnonyTerrorNinja. I am far too lazy to repeatedly have to go back to the forum settings every time I log in just to change it back to him being the main posting character, or to have to select his character every single time I make a reply to threads here. It's enough of an effort to do it for the other categories, where I actually have to represent myself.

If you look, however, you may notice that the character is in the same corp as AnonyTerrorNinja. It has been for a long time now.



Originally by: "Dinamita Tona"
my guess you are caldari pilot missioning whole day, whining why can i be not immune to wardecs


Protip: Insults require that there is some basis behind it. Without this basis, you do nothing but make yourself look like a fool.


Originally by: "Dinamita Tona"
And to point out again, one corp left alliance and then remote reped friends
i would say that's cheating, but game mechanics allow that so its ok i guess.
"]

It's because other people can do it too that it's fine. If it turns a fight into a stalemate, it means that one or both sides are doing something wrong. I can think of a few things here that could cause this to be the situation.


Originally by: "Dinamita Tona"
Problem is that this is more and more rule and not isolated cases, so we may soon have 2 sides with 5 bses on each side and with 20 neutrals on each side helping in battle. Again, if that is way to go...




Logistics is useless if:

They have no cap
They can't lock their intended support targets due to ECM or damps
They are out of range of their targets
They are dead
They are in the wrong system/grid
They are docked


5 BSs on both sides and 20 logistics? So it becomes a stalemate. Big deal. Neither side wins, neither side loses. Who ever said stalemates shouldn't be allowed?


Also, keep in mind that as soon as they help someone that has helped one of your wartargets (the battleships), or help the battlehsips directly, your entire corp/alliance can shoot them.


Really, go test it.

Dinamita Tona
Minmatar
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.28 17:20:00 - [16]
 

If corporation A is at war with Alliance A and individual or corporation B member comes to remote support any member of corporation A, then the whole of Alliance A is allowed to shoot at that individual.

- nope have such case every day and that is why im complaining

Can flagging - only flaged to corp not alliance or gang

where exact did I insult you?










Onys Cissalc
Posted - 2008.12.28 18:40:00 - [17]
 

"Can flagging - only flaged to corp not alliance or gang".


I guess this wasn't obvious enough, considering that the flag that the person you are supporting specifically states the individuals or corporation(s) that they are flagged to.


I'm going to make a little 3D animation of this for you. You seem to be unwilling to go test it and are misunderstanding how the mechanics work, so I guess I have to show it to you without the aid of some unwilling people for me to use it on instead.

Onys Cissalc
Posted - 2008.12.28 19:09:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Onys Cissalc on 28/12/2008 19:12:10
Ok, I was too lazy to make an animation so I'll instead just use this picture.


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


The LolCorp Alliance has declared war on aCorp.

In this fight we have the noobcorper neutral Basilisk in The Scope.
We have two guys in a geddon and apoc from lolcorp, in the lolcorp alliance, and some noob from the recruits corp in the lolcorp alliance.


On the defenders side we have the station huggers from aCorp in a megathron and a cyclone.



Now, TheNewGuy has only aggro'd, or jammed, the cyclone. He's being a complete noob, ignoring his FC and just doing his own thing, and figures that because the cyclone pilot has such a big and scary name, he is clearly the greater threat.


The other two, however, are shooting at the Megathron, which Nubawan is remote supporting for cap and shields with his Basilisk. Naturally, the basic aggression flag carries through from the Megathron to Nubawan, because the geddon and apoc were shooting at it.


However, because L.C is at war with aCorp, the WAR flag carries through from SomeGuy's megathron, which Nubawan is remote supporting, to TheNewGuy and all his corp members (all his alliance members), because Nubawan is assisting TheNewGuy's wartarget.



It's really not that hard a concept to understand. If it were the case that the mechanic broke and one can prevent neutral logistics from getting flagged by putting your people in an alliance, then that would be referred to as an exploit.




*edit*ie: all of L.C gets to attack Nubawan for the next 15 minutes.

Unless any single one of them attacks him, he is not allowed to shoot back at them. If any individual does attack him, then he may only shoot at that individual.

Ashley Thomas
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.28 19:53:00 - [19]
 

^ How it's been since I'v started

Gangs themselves don't flag anymore, but actually supporting someone will, gang or not.
If the overview doesn't show them as red then refresh it, if it's still not red then they're not actually helping.

Red Flag
Posted - 2009.02.07 23:21:00 - [20]
 

I think 24 hours is a bit much. However I do agree with the spirit of the first poster's post.

I believe:
If you aid a war target you should:
1. Become aggressed (and thus can't jump, etc. Until your aggression timer runs off.)
(1a. Aggression timers across the board need to be increased.)
2. By aiding a war target you should become a valid target of all enemies that the one you aid is at war with for a period of 15 minutes.
(As it is right now, the "chain" breaks down, and the neutrals only become valid targets of a small portion of the opposing fleet. Sometimes a corp in an alliance, other times just the people shooting at the target being repaired by the neutral.)


Alternately:
1. Aiding a ship that is at war while you are not at war with the same enemy will result you becoming an "illegal combatant" by CONCORD and result in CONCORD destroying your ship for interfering in a CONCORD sanctioned war.

(Something like that anyway.)

Dors Venabily
Posted - 2009.02.07 23:30:00 - [21]
 

I like reds alternate idea your aid is unauthorized aggression and hence you should get Concorded and as bonus this way other game mechanics in low sec will not be influenced at all. You want to help out buddy in a war wardec as well and be fair about it.

Drunken Munki
Posted - 2009.02.07 23:43:00 - [22]
 

I agree with the original poster...

Perhaps an alternative solution would be to allow CONCORD to warp in repper ships to assist CORP A who is being attacked by war targets from CORP B -who in turn is being repped/boosted by ships from an alliance outside of both CORP A and CORP B.

I can understand that you want to aid you friends however in a CONCORD sanctioned war why should someone outside of both corps/alliances be allowed to interfere in a war in high sec?

This is broken, fix it.

Red Flag
Posted - 2009.02.07 23:56:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Red Flag on 08/02/2009 00:04:36
I do not know if it was fixed (I think it was), but a while back ago there was a problem where two ships that were officially at war with each other would form a fleet, and then they would invite someone into the fleet so that the new person in the fleet would become a valid war target and then the two people would attack the new person without getting Concorded.

Obviously that is a problem.

I believe that since Concord regulates war, that anyone not at war according to concord should not be allowed to participate or help out with a war. (In other words, either join the corp/alliance that is at war OR stay out of the war!)

To this end:
1. Helping someone who is at war with a different corp/alliance then the one you are at war with will flash a warning stating you will be Concorded if you proceed.
2. If you do proceed you will be Concorded.

Note: If two separate corporations A and B are both at war with the same corporation C, then the two corporations A and B should be allowed to help/aid/assist each other.

If however corporations A and B are not at war with the same corporation C, even if corporations A and B are both at war with corporation D, then corporations A and B will be Concorded if they aid/assist/help each other.

This would cause a bit of an issue when two corps do declare war on the same enemy corporation, but there is say an hour or several hours of time between the two war declarations. This would mean that corporations A and B would not be able to aid each other (though they may want to) until both corporations A and B are able to fire (and be fired upon) by corporation C.

However, to solve this issue: Form an alliance!

=-=-=-=
*** EDIT ***
ADD:

Further note: I believe that if corporations A and B are both at war with corporation C, they SHOULD be allowed to aid each other (as long as both corps are able to fire upon and be fired upon by C). Corporations helping each other during times of war is a huge tradition of Eve that by it's self should not be damaged. Mercenaries are hired all the time, being a mercenary or hiring mercenaries is an Eve-Old Tradition. If two corporations are both waring the same faction then they should be allowed to aid each other in all ways possible (be that remote reps, boosts, or just as extra bodies on the line).

However, corporation A helping corporation B while corporation A is not officially at war is an exploit and should be fixed.

Irn Bruce
Posted - 2009.02.08 01:00:00 - [24]
 

RR etc is used for 4 purposes:

1. To help out your friends when they're tanking, either PvP or PvE (though in anything below lvl 5's RR's shouldn't be necessary)

2. To bait other players into attacking you for the purpose of getting aggro and then killing them (similar to can flipping)

3. Neutral alts/friends acting as secret friends for the purpose of spider tanking while at war in a way your enemy cannot predict and therefore cannot plan for or counter effectively

4. exploiting someone else's RR in order to get them concorded


So, the uses for RR range in their morality, to say the least.

1. This is the intended mechanic.

2. Not the intentional mechanic, but not really a problem either, since the other player would have to be stupid and attack you in order to get into trouble (just like can flipping)

3. This is the first one that is really a problem. When declaring a war, you take into account a number of things, such as the other corp's size and killboard record. Neutral RR alts/friends are totally unpredictable. If you're at war, your alts/friends can't show up and start shooting/jamming/neuting/whatever your WTs, so why should they be able to show up and start repping you?

4. This is not the biggest problem, but it's definitely the least acceptable. It can happen, for example, if a noob in a cheap frigate asks for RR in local because they've taken armor damage in a mission and can't afford the repair bill. Once you start repping them, they then shoot you, which gets them concorded, and because you're aiding a criminal, you get a global flag too, so you also get concorded. It's important to note that this doesn't pop up a concord warning box, because when you activated the module, he didn't have a global flag. I reckon this one's actually just an exploit they haven't fixed yet. It's very similar to the lofty scam, except lofty actually had a warning message, and CCP changed the way aggro in gangs worked just to counter that.

My proposed solution would be to only allow you to RR members of your own corp/alliance. RRing anybody else would get you concorded, just like with most modules. How would this affect the 4 points above?

1. It would only affect people missioning together who are in different corps, or RR between corps at war with the same enemy. The latter would be easily got around by allowing RR between corps who are at war with a common enemy, and I reckon this is a very rare occurance anyway. It'd be very rare that corps who are set up to spider tank don't have their own autonomous RR fleet, without having to rely on other corps for this. The former is more of an issue, as I'm aware a lot of NPC corp members like to mission together without having to form a player corp and run the risk of wars. However, like I said, for highsec missions, RR really isn't necessary, especially if there's more than one of you splitting the aggro.

2. This is a cheap way to get aggro anyway, and it only really happens outside trade hubs which are far too crowded as it is. I don't think it'd be much of a loss. The situations where this occurs sort of bleed into number 3 also, except it's unplanned RR support for corps at war. As someone mentioned earlier, why would concord allow unsanctioned interference in a sanctioned war?

3. People wouldn't be stopped from using their RR alts, they'd just have to be honest about it and have them in corp. This affects both sides in a war equally, and would serve to make wars fairer, as a 3 man corp can't dec a 30 man one only to lure their fleet into a trap with 15 alts in RR BSes waiting. If they really want, the RR can stay out of corp until after the dec goes live, then they can join up, and maybe the other side won't notice until it's too late.

4. This exploit would be totally solved. In the case where it genuinely is a noob in a frig he can't afford to repair, just buy him a small repper and trade it to him in the station.

Marcus Right
Minmatar
Pilots of Damnation
PHOENIX.
Posted - 2009.02.08 05:27:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Marcus Right on 08/02/2009 05:32:30
Most people do not run missions while they are at war in empire. If someone is running missions while they are at war in empire and they can't get remote repairs from a friend in a different corp that's just too bad. War sucks!

I completely understand this problem. My alliance, a low-sec and 0.0 alliance was war dec'd by two corporations in high sec for about a month. The first few weeks we were handing the empire griefers their butts (though they'll have you believe otherwise). They even used a few neutral remote repair people, which we popped (the kills are on our killboards). We even declared war on one of the corps that a remote repair neutral was in.

However, in about the third week it started getting extremely insane with how many neutral remote repairs they were using. The enemy would show up with a fleet of about six war targets and ten remote repair neutrals or they would show up with 30 war targets and 20 to 30 remote repair neutrals and the neutrals were from several different corporation (which would make it expensive for us to war dec them all. [Plus, what if corporations used players in NPC corporations?]).

Our alliance is against using exploits and in the end our alliance started taking serious losses and then decided it wasn't even worth fighting them. We just did what most non-PvP corps did and stayed docked up. (Though some of our guys with itchy trigger fingers would go out and try to solo one of the war targets and then lose when that war target got remote repaired by three neutrals. - At this point I blame the dumb guys who couldn't wait it out. - Then again, those guys are paying for Eve so they can PvP and some of them do not mind losing ships cause they have the ISK and they want to PvP win or lose, but that's not the point.)

We could have had people leave the alliance to remote repair us, or hire mercenaries to remote repair us, or ask our friends to remote repair us, but our alliance believes in fighting with in the rules and didn't want to get banned for exploiting.

Remote repaired by a neutral is an obvious exploit. Fortunately it's one that can be easily fixed.

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2009.02.08 07:21:00 - [26]
 

I have less problem with the repair issue that can be dealt a war dec solves the issue with any player corps. The problem lies with NPC corps as you cannot engage them prior to their reping the enemy even if they have before, it is also an issue with alt spies and scouts. You can know a particular character is an alt and sometimes even who's alt is being used to tell how many people are outside a station or on the other side of a gate or track you down in system. Currently other than suicide ganking them not an overly viable solution there is no ability to deal with those spies if they are in an NPC corp.

Perhaps a method of issuing idividual war dec's on people in NPC corps should be created, this would remeby the impunity of alts for spying. Unfortunantly their is the problem of griefers abusing this to harass players that want nothing more than to run missions or grind rocks.



with but complete inability to engage alt scouts and spies is worse. There is no way to remove them currently and it is a very real issue that actually encourages station

Marcus Right
Minmatar
Pilots of Damnation
PHOENIX.
Posted - 2009.03.03 15:04:00 - [27]
 

Alt spies is a whole different can of worms. Your idea of declaring war on an individual in an NPC corp has some merit in my opinion, but since a person could scrap an alt and make a new one fairly easy, and also since a 50 man corp could easily have more than 100 "alt spies" as you put it; it still becomes infeasible to declare war on them all.

In empire the "Alt Spy" issue is one that everyone just has to deal with. They have their alts spying, we have our alts spying, it a level and fair playing ground.

To stay on topic: Remote repairing from a corp not in the war is another issue.
For two reasons:
1st Even when you know the person is going to remote repair, you can't shoot them until they do. This makes them part of the war, but yet not a valid target until they choose to be.

2nd And most importantly: The "chain of aggression" only makes the remote repairing ship a valid target to those individuals shooting the ship that is being remote repaired.

For the 2nd issue this means: If you have corp Blue members A, B, C, D, and E; And corp Red members: 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5; And corp Green member 'G' who's the remote repair ship:

Members A, B, and C are shooting target 1.
Members D and E are jamming targets 2 and 3 with ECM.
Now the remote repairer 'G' begins to repair target 1.
Members D and E would like to now ECM jam 'G' so he can't repair target 1.
However, since D and E were not shooting target 1 (cause they're out of missile and gun range) they remote repairer 'G' is not a valid target to them; They can't jam 'G'!

This means that 'G' is able to remote rep target 1 without any chance of being ECMed by D and E just because D and E weren't shooting target 1 at the time 'G' started to remote repair.

That's the main problem.

However, this issue runs deeper on a game-philosophical level. Concord is there to 'regulate wars'. Should Concord allow a corporation that is not legally involved in the war to interfere in the war? The corporation hasn't officially declared war, the corporation has not had war officially declared on them. That would make the remote repairer 'G' in the example an "Illegal Combatant'. Concord should intervene. After all, if that remote repairer 'G' had ran up and just shot member A instead of remote repairing target 1, than Concord would have come along and blown up remote repairer 'G', right?


 

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