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Chomapuraku
Caldari
Carinae's Workshop
Posted - 2008.12.21 03:34:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Chomapuraku on 21/12/2008 03:35:01
trit spawns in (edit: not nearly but completely) limitless quantities in high-sec, if you know how to say the magic word (hint: it begins with an "L" and ends with "evel 4 agent")

the supply is unlimited, transporting it is fantastically tedious and inconvenient, and it only becomes really profitable/worthwhile if you have a 10-man corp in your tz who have 5 hulk alts apiece and a rorq/orca. personally, i think veld is only really worthwhile if you're a cap-building corp in empire that doesn't need to cart it to market. i tried mining it a while back, and the low profit margins, crushing boredom, and can flippers made me and my alt pack up and head for mission space after 3 days.

it's a terrible shame you can't sneak the rorq into, say, a 0.5 system on the edge of empire space. that would make it great for compressing veld for export. as it stands, though, the veld business is too much of a pain in the ass for too little reward for any but the most hell-bent industrialists

Remus Kurgan
Caldari
Posted - 2008.12.21 03:53:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 21/12/2008 00:18:11

Quote:
Low sec mining is sometimes more profitable, sometimes much more profitable, but has a greater level of risk.

Wrong. WRONG. WRONG !!!
Right now, Veldspar is the best thing to mine out of all ores that appear in highsec and lowsec combined.
And it's been like that almost since the drone regions started operation, and it WILL be like that as long as nothing gets changed.


Fair enough, no need to scream, we're just debating two points of view! You are right, currently no low sec ores measure up in Isk/hr ratio.


Originally by: Akita T
Quote:
Regardless, if no one mines the Veldspar, but everyone wants Trit, industrial companies are going to pay more and more for it in bulk, which drives up the market pricing. So, if it is that profitable, people should start strip mining all Veld in high sec, but they are not.

Yes they are, those that bother mining at all. All space close to trade hubs is being regularly stripped of all Veldspar.

Don't know where you're looking, I'm within 3 jumps of Jita and find Trit in belts all the time. I'm sure it varies significantly by area, but unless someone shows me significant evidence to suggest that there isn't enough Veld out there for people to mine, I don't know why CCP should make drastic changes.

Originally by: Akita T
Quote:
Again, why does CCP need to intervene? I don't see any reason for external influence on the market. Let the miners pick the roids they want based on current profit trends and if Trit goes up, more will flock to that mineral due to demand.

WHY ?
Because high trit prices means low "just about everything else" prices, which means lowsec/0.0 income is down the crapper.

I'm not following your math. Are you referring to high trit prices causing lower prices for all other minerals? Even if Trit is causing demand to slump for other minerals, artifically setting prices is still a horrible idea in my mind. The great thing about Eve is that the market is free and clear of price fixing outside of NPC only goods.

Originally by: Akita T

Because higher trit availability would mean increased demand for the highends, which leads to higher prices for them while OVERALL basket mineral prices (and therefore ship building prices) actually go down, there's an explosion of number of cheap ships available, lowsec mining becomes more profitable than highsec mining which means lowsec will start to refill to the levels it once had, and 0.0 will be increasingly more popular due to the boost in income levels.
Because it will only have GOOD effects, and nearly none bad.
That's why.



I still don't believe this issue is short supply of Trit, it's significantly increased demand causing price inflation. Again, I don't know that anyone has concrete information on exact numbers since there are so many sections of the EVE marketplace (i.e. Corps buying from members, contracts, markets, reprocessing, etc.) If trit is in short supply due to lowered respawn rates or some other resource faucet loss, then CCP should act. Otherwise, it is a market driven by players and if there's not enough Trit, players should either change the way they play or cope with current prices.

In either case, I agree with you that the balance between profit margins has shifted and low sec ores probably need to be fixed, but I'm of the opinion that less CCP intervention is better.

Good chat Very Happy

Solid Prefekt
Haven Front
Posted - 2008.12.21 03:56:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Atrossoe
That makes mining such minerals not worth the risk of 0.0 space.
Mining Trit you will make maybe 11mil/hour. With the same skills/bonuses you will make 50mil/hour in 0.0 so do no tell me that it is not worth mining in 0.0 space.

Ricdics
Tleilex Developments
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.12.21 04:16:00 - [34]
 

isk per m3 values I have determined from highest to lowest:

Mercoxit ________ 491.60
Arkanor ________ 382.46
Bistot __________ 364.22
Crokite _________ 358.52
Gneiss __________ 193.63
Dark Ochre ______ 181.18
Veldspar ________ 124.02
Scordite ________ 103.94
Hedbergite ______ 98.96
Kernite _________ 93.39
Spodumain _______ 92.57
Plagioclase _____ 81.34
Pyroxeres _______ 78.09
Hemorphite ______ 77.88
Omber ___________ 70.40
Jaspet __________ 58.30


So Akita is basically right. Only nullsec ores are really above Trit in value. However don't forget it's important to put a value on the extra work tracking down Veld roids, having to constantly target cycle, moving around and clearing belts every 20 mins etc.

Waseem
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.12.21 04:23:00 - [35]
 

Pretty soon you might see mission runners selling bookmarks to the veld belts they encounter.

Chomapuraku
Caldari
Carinae's Workshop
Posted - 2008.12.21 04:33:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Waseem
Pretty soon you might see mission runners selling bookmarks to the veld belts they encounter.


sounds like a good idea to me. make a few tens of mil farming the mission for a week, and a few mil extra by selling the bookmarks to all of the local industrial corps at once Ideaugh

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.12.21 05:20:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Ricdics


So Akita is basically right. Only nullsec ores are really above Trit in value. However don't forget it's important to put a value on the extra work tracking down Veld roids, having to constantly target cycle, moving around and clearing belts every 20 mins etc.


This is a very good point. I think it's noteworthy that omber is the second lowest and has consistently been there for a long time. My take is that this is solely due to the second part of the Rogue Slaver's mission with 400k units of omber. 250k units of scordite, and 540k units of veldspar (that's 320k m3 omber, 37.5k m3 of scordite, and 54k m3 of veldspar). Given that, we have a fair idea of the premium that some miners place on being able to stay in one place. Namely, once the valuable scordite and veldspar goes rather quickly, they stay around for the omber. That implies to me that staying in one place for a (relatively) long time is worth cutting your isk yield by almost half.

I imagine the people mining the omber are using a lot of alts, maybe a few are macroing. But it indicates to me that if there were a source of trit that were easy to find and as plentiful as this mission, they'd be mining it into the ground.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.12.21 05:44:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Ricdics


So Akita is basically right. Only nullsec ores are really above Trit in value. However don't forget it's important to put a value on the extra work tracking down Veld roids, having to constantly target cycle, moving around and clearing belts every 20 mins etc.


Not to mention also that there is significant effort in moving large quantities of trit.

Bear in mind it takes two freight loads of uncompressed mins just to build a freighter, and up until the Orca it was the lowest of the capital builds in terms of mineral qty.

Hell it doesn't even take that much to fill a freighter uncompressed for battleship builds.

Demand puts a price on trit sure, but logistics easily adds to the diminished supply.

Ricdics
Tleilex Developments
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.12.21 06:04:00 - [39]
 

I think another factor in Omber is that the quantity requirements in builds are relatively low. I have done that slaver mission hundreds of times and never knew there was Omber there (never really looked at the roids when missioning) so dunno how many people exploit that.

Clair Bear
Ursine Research and Production
Posted - 2008.12.21 06:24:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Waseem
Pretty soon you might see mission runners selling bookmarks to the veld belts they encounter.


Nice thought, but no. Even level 1 missions are packed to the gills with veld rocks. Downing the slavers 2/2 is the best known because of omber content but most 'old' missions have plenty of rocks in them. That omber comes in useful deep in Amarr space, for sure.

Best of all you can pull veld supply missions right in the busy hub system such as Jita!

Taikun
Gallente
Jovoso
Teldar Paper
Posted - 2008.12.21 06:58:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Not to mention also that there is significant effort in moving large quantities of trit.


I can fit 450+ million units of trit in a single freighter load. There are no difficulties in moving vast quantities of trit in EvE.

Taikun

Devian 666
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2008.12.21 07:22:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Ricdics
I have done that slaver mission hundreds of times and never knew there was Omber there (never really looked at the roids when missioning) so dunno how many people exploit that.

It is widely known and used. However, there is an omber sink that means a lot of the omber never makes it into the minerals market.

There is also a L3/L4 mission that has around 5m units of veld.

I read this thread and was thinking wtf are they talking about. There's an unlimited supply of roids in missions and all the miners tired of all the problems of belts usually only mine out missions.

For 0.0 it's typically worth mining high ends, and then ratting to get hauler spawns (and loot) for low ends.

Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
Posted - 2008.12.21 07:45:00 - [43]
 

supply + ???? + demand = profit?

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2008.12.21 08:32:00 - [44]
 

Hrm... time to start annotating the Kill Mission Survival Guide with gate to belt distance and ore quantities mined from various missions?

Uncle Stabby
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.12.21 11:07:00 - [45]
 

I'm not going to act like I'm an experienced player here. I'll openly admit I'm new, and haven't been watching the market for years like some of you. I'de still like to add my piece here though.

The current trit prices are great for new players like myself. The thing I love about Eve is the learning curve, and the joys of overcoming bad decisions.

Not everyone is like me. Not everyone thrives from adversity in games. For the people who are getting hammered by the learning curve, mining can help them bounce back. Bouncing back 3 times slower would prolly cause more to quit.

Keeping those players in the game is good for everyone all around. People who manufacture have more customers, who need modules more often than others who don't die. PVPers get more people to kill, and people who gather materials have a constant demand for their goods. It's win/win for everyone.

SPQRMocton
Minmatar
Vertigo Heavy Industries
Vertigo Coalition
Posted - 2008.12.21 11:46:00 - [46]
 

O MY GOD ! ! , we have to stop this free market stuff NOW ! , if we let the free market do it's job we r gonna be so screwed , those that are lazy and refuse to change will suffer and whine and then my ears will bleed and I won't be able to hear my mining lasers going.

Seriously , the op has what I call classic x box syndrome , he wants a formula for success that never changes or alters in anyway , I am sick to death of these whiners saying the devs did this wrong the devs did that wrong !

Dammit stop already or make yer own frikin' game.

now for specific points

I want you to tell me where there is Giant Veld rocks (other than 0 space)

Mining in zero space is relatively safe( TRY SHOOTING UP SOME ZERO SPACE MINERS SOMEDAY)that's why the price is down , hmm lower prices means higher supply , point shot down

A cap on anything in the game makes the free market go boom(BAD)

as for isk influx being caused by hi trit prices lets do some math.

freighter full of trit (I can move 88 mil trit w mine)= 352 million isk at 4 per unit

now let take a prorator full of zydrine (mine has 3250 m3 I think)= 325000 zydrine x 2,200 =715 million

Hmm which am I more interested in doing the work to get ,so much for trit ruining the economy of eve.

granted It will take me longer to move 325000 zyd on the market but my time in mining invested is considerably less and my equipment cost in minimal to mine the rock to get zyd.

Ok anyone else care to counter my counter ?












Ricdics
Tleilex Developments
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.12.21 11:52:00 - [47]
 

I can't decide whether to make fun of your grammar or punctuation first.

Inspiration
Posted - 2008.12.21 11:54:00 - [48]
 

The free market is working fine, and yes I have to pay close to 6B in tritanium every two weeks. I can live with that as the market will rebalance with some delay to the new situation, and so will my product pricing eventually.

The only awkward thing is that when capitals were brought into the game, there was a tritanium price cap. The ballancing of these ships CCP did might have been done with that in mind as capital ships use extreme amounts of tritanium in both volume and as part of the total production cost.

Not even long ago that price cap was removed, and so it can be said that the balancing performed by CCP has to be looked at again. But it is not up to me to make the call it is neccecary or not....I don't have all the data.

Xabier
Amarr
Posted - 2008.12.21 13:46:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Not to mention also that there is significant effort in moving large quantities of trit.


I can fit 450+ million units of trit in a single freighter load. There are no difficulties in moving vast quantities of trit in EvE.

Taikun


WTB Freighter with 4.5m m3 cargohold


Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.21 14:05:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: flakeys
Originally by: Akita T
and good 0.0 mining barely 4 times more profitable.




Yet still 4 times more profitable.If you look at it in a profitway then surely CCP must act on the mission rewards first in empire before they even touch the roids if you talk about it in this manner with high-sec vs 0.0.The moment 0.0 is becoming less profitable is the moment i'd start asking CCP about coming in between but not sooner.

I see what you mean though and yes the trit price is going up insanely fast BUT the question here is if the OP is right in saying it is so bad CCP needs to intervein.I'd defiantly say no , we have seen every mineral type go skyrocket at a certain point in the eve history and every time it went back to the same spot again.
Surely trit will not go back to the pre-shuttlechange but it will go down eventually and then we can start making topics about how insane the new morphite prices are and that we remember it being around 9000 at a certain point Wink.


Just to point it: it is not the "pre-shuttle", the module keeping the tritanium at 1.40 was a POS module that was refined to get the trit.

The shuttles were keeping the price a around 3.40.

In both situations we had a NPC sold module keeping the trit price down.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.21 14:16:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Waseem
Pretty soon you might see mission runners selling bookmarks to the veld belts they encounter.



You think that mission runner withing a corporation with high sec miners don't give the bookmarks of mission with good minerals to friends/corpmates?

Selling the bookmarks is more complicated. But giving them away in a corp mission hub is easy.

Justcause
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.12.21 14:35:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Not to mention also that there is significant effort in moving large quantities of trit.


I can fit 450+ million units of trit in a single freighter load. There are no difficulties in moving vast quantities of trit in EvE.

Taikun


i personally fit 1.8bil trit + associated minerals in a single Freighter =)

the joys of mineral compression - on an excessive scale.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.21 15:26:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 21/12/2008 15:27:59
Originally by: Remus Kurgan
Originally by: Akita T
Quote:
Again, why does CCP need to intervene? I don't see any reason for external influence on the market. Let the miners pick the roids they want based on current profit trends and if Trit goes up, more will flock to that mineral due to demand.

Because high trit prices means low "just about everything else" prices, which means lowsec/0.0 income is down the crapper.

I'm not following your math. Are you referring to high trit prices causing lower prices for all other minerals? Even if Trit is causing demand to slump for other minerals, artifically setting prices is still a horrible idea in my mind. The great thing about Eve is that the market is free and clear of price fixing outside of NPC only goods.

Nobody said anything about setting prices, price fixing or anything like that, quite the contrary.
I was talking about making Tritanium easier to mine, as in increasing the Tritanium yield in all types of ores, while decreasing the yield of higher-end minerals to compensate.

Originally by: Justcause
Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Not to mention also that there is significant effort in moving large quantities of trit.

I can fit 450+ million units of trit in a single freighter load. There are no difficulties in moving vast quantities of trit in EvE.

i personally fit 1.8bil trit + associated minerals in a single Freighter =)
the joys of mineral compression - on an excessive scale.

Yeah, but at what COST per unit ? Laughing
You know, manufacture line time isn't worthless, just like ore you mine yourself isn't worthless.

Remus Kurgan
Caldari
Posted - 2008.12.21 17:05:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 21/12/2008 15:27:59
Originally by: Remus Kurgan
Originally by: Akita T
Quote:
Again, why does CCP need to intervene? I don't see any reason for external influence on the market. Let the miners pick the roids they want based on current profit trends and if Trit goes up, more will flock to that mineral due to demand.

Because high trit prices means low "just about everything else" prices, which means lowsec/0.0 income is down the crapper.

I'm not following your math. Are you referring to high trit prices causing lower prices for all other minerals? Even if Trit is causing demand to slump for other minerals, artifically setting prices is still a horrible idea in my mind. The great thing about Eve is that the market is free and clear of price fixing outside of NPC only goods.

Nobody said anything about setting prices, price fixing or anything like that, quite the contrary.
I was talking about making Tritanium easier to mine, as in increasing the Tritanium yield in all types of ores, while decreasing the yield of higher-end minerals to compensate.

Originally by: Atrossoe

I don't understand why there can't be a cap on tritanium and pyerite prices in the market.


Right, I meant a reference to others stating we should have price fixing or price caps. If mining gets changed by CCP, that's what I don't want to see. Leave the market to the players. But I agree that low sec could use more Trit in their roids to make it more profitable and balance the scale.

Dennmoth Ferdier
Posted - 2008.12.21 17:05:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Atrossoe
well here's whats wrong. When megacyte sells for around 2.2k each and trit per piece sells for 4.30 each who do you think is going to mine trit over megacyte? Everyone. Why? because its less risky, you get a crap load more trit on average per refine than you do per refine of arknor for megacyte.

So tell me this. Who in eve would rather mine trit over mega? Everyone, because its less risky, so do tell me why the value of tritanium is so high? its because of people going into regions and buying low and reselling it very high. its called market cornering and its illegal on even the real work stock exchanges.


Atrossoe


There are already many valid points in the thread, but I'm just gonna pitch in.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if "everyone" start mining trit over megacyte, doesn't that effectively start lowering the price of trit and rising the price of megacyte?

Isn't this just how the market responds in terms of supply and demand?

Trit is high because it's needed AND bought at the high price. When it's too much, people stop buying it, and demand will drop, effectively bringing the price down.

You can't blame it all on manipulation. Every miner who knows to use sell orders over buy orders, will put a competitive price on their minerals, it's not manipulation, it's good business.

There's nothing wrong imo. Market works the way it's ran. Workig as intended.

Jakana
Caldari
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2008.12.21 17:11:00 - [56]
 

Personally i have no problem with the way trit prices are going, more isk for me, but then i mine in empire.

But i do think its wrong that i can make more of lowgrades than off midgrades.

Since my corp began manufactuiring we have mined all lowgrades, used mission runners to provide midgrades, and bought highgrades.

Yet now that we want to expand into lowsec i see the price of all the midgrade ores and all i think is, better to mine veld, sell it and buy the mids.

Onl thing i can think of is that when the next expansion comes out with whatever new toys the balance of mineral requirments needs to change so that trit is no longer 40 percent of the items value.

Hell exclude trit altogether from the mineral makups, force more demand on the minerals that are becoming so cheap they arnt worth mining.

And I agree drone regions have forced midgrade/highgrade mineral value down and capitol ship wars is driving trit up. Though whats happening with pye and mex i dunno.

Fearless Angel
Posted - 2008.12.21 21:11:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Ricdics
There isn't a whole lot of Veldspar left in empire these days, it's usually being hardcore strip mined and the roids are pitifully small. The stopping/starting aspect decreases the yield considerably as well (laser finishes it's cycle and does nothing for 1.5 mins etc).

Anyway I reckon this will either see people pick up mining of veld in low/nullsec or more likely the price of Trit will rise even further.
LOL!

Go to Minmatar and Amarr regions. They're FULL of veldspar and nobody hasn't been mining them for years.

Astarte Nosferatu
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.12.21 22:20:00 - [58]
 

Even in The Forge there are plenty of Veld roids to go round, even in systems with on average 60 people in local. I have no trouble finding 50-60k+ Veld roids.

Justcause
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.12.21 22:22:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Justcause on 21/12/2008 22:39:52
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 21/12/2008 15:27:59

Originally by: Justcause
Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Not to mention also that there is significant effort in moving large quantities of trit.

I can fit 450+ million units of trit in a single freighter load. There are no difficulties in moving vast quantities of trit in EvE.

i personally fit 1.8bil trit + associated minerals in a single Freighter =)
the joys of mineral compression - on an excessive scale.

Yeah, but at what COST per unit ? Laughing
You know, manufacture line time isn't worthless, just like ore you mine yourself isn't worthless.



Only takes me 7 days to do it :/ And i get 0% Refine wastage. i get less then 0.1% build wastage.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2008.12.21 22:41:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 21/12/2008 22:45:36
Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Not to mention also that there is significant effort in moving large quantities of trit.


I can fit 450+ million units of trit in a single freighter load. There are no difficulties in moving vast quantities of trit in EvE.

Taikun


You people still use passive targeters? Pfft, do keep up. I can fit over 1.2bn units of trit alone into a freighter, plus plenty of other stuff. That's a market cost plus arbitrary builder markup.

Given time to collect enough Plush compound, a figure of over 3.1bn trit is achievable, at a small % over refine value.


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