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Kessiaan
Minmatar
Vagrants Inc
Posted - 2008.12.20 07:07:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Jacob Mei
Its not surprising. If the American auto industry has any hopes they really need to kill off the unions. They were needed when they were first formed but now its overly full of lazy slobs who are over paid for what their jobs require them to do to the point that its an insult to other industries.

If anything good does come out of this ressession is that the lazy worker will finally be handed his pink slip.


I really have to agree with this - unions were absolutely necessary when they first formed but now they're nothing but a massive drain on productivity. Combine that with excessive corporate greed and you have recipe for fail - everyone is chasing the money but nobody is bothering to make the goods that generate the money in the first place.

Foreign companies have plenty of non-union production facilities in the US, and last I checked their employees got paid decently and were happy for the most part, so you can't just point at globalization and say the US workers having to compete with slaves in southeast Asia are the issue.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2008.12.20 10:44:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: MooKids
Kind of makes me wonder what it would be like to live in a capitalist society. I guess EVE will be the closest I have to that.

I imagine the same thing is going to happen. We will give them money, then all the managers and executives will get their bonuses, just like AIG just did, then claim it was so they could keep their top talent. In otherwords, keep the same *******s who caused all this crap in the first place. Other than that, nothing will change, the same crap policies will continue.


Countries need to stop borrowing from Socialism when it suits them, either be capitalist or socialist. Bailing out these failed companies only stops the natural selection thats natural in capitalism: idiot businesses will fail, but thats not the governments fault or responsibility.

Motaka
Caldari
Posted - 2008.12.20 14:50:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Kessiaan
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Its not surprising. If the American auto industry has any hopes they really need to kill off the unions. They were needed when they were first formed but now its overly full of lazy slobs who are over paid for what their jobs require them to do to the point that its an insult to other industries.

If anything good does come out of this ressession is that the lazy worker will finally be handed his pink slip.


I really have to agree with this - unions were absolutely necessary when they first formed but now they're nothing but a massive drain on productivity. Combine that with excessive corporate greed and you have recipe for fail - everyone is chasing the money but nobody is bothering to make the goods that generate the money in the first place.

Foreign companies have plenty of non-union production facilities in the US, and last I checked their employees got paid decently and were happy for the most part, so you can't just point at globalization and say the US workers having to compete with slaves in southeast Asia are the issue.


I dont know what the unions are like in the US,but here in blighty they are pretty much toothless,i was a member of the general workers union for 7 years and i might as well of burnt my £700 worth of subs in an ashtray.Good old maggie.Exclamation

Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.12.20 15:01:00 - [34]
 

Its interesting to note that Ford is not asking for any money at the moment. They actually are fairly flush and liquid for another year or so. They're only asking for access to money in the event the economy doesn't begin to recover.

A couple years ago, a new CEO, the current one, actually, put the entire company up as collateral on 23 billion in loans. He even put the intellectual property rights to the Ford logo on the line. Though Ford is as gimped by its SUV dependence as the others, its also the farthest along in switching over to smaller hybrid models than the others.


TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2008.12.20 15:31:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Janu Hull
Its interesting to note that Ford is not asking for any money at the moment. They actually are fairly flush and liquid for another year or so. They're only asking for access to money in the event the economy doesn't begin to recover.

A couple years ago, a new CEO, the current one, actually, put the entire company up as collateral on 23 billion in loans. He even put the intellectual property rights to the Ford logo on the line. Though Ford is as gimped by its SUV dependence as the others, its also the farthest along in switching over to smaller hybrid models than the others.




Ford aren't idiots, they build alot of different types of cars and own several other car companies which they have been liquidating over the years. GM and these other car comparies which have been going downhill for a while are the ones who need a bailout, which won't help anything except short term unemployment figures.

Isn't anyone slightly worried that Obama supports this?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.20 15:35:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: TimMc
Isn't anyone slightly worried that Obama supports this?

I was worried way before the election, Obama's economic policies were utter crap but SOUNDED good to the masses.
Now, it's a "meh, what can you do" (and besides I'm almost on the opposite side of the globe so there's not much that could be done... and Obama might have been "the lesser of two evils" anyway).
Obama = economic collapse, but a "nicer" USA
McCain = economic borderline sustainability, same ole' USA as the past decade

ceaon
Posted - 2008.12.20 16:56:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: TimMc
Isn't anyone slightly worried that Obama supports this?

I was worried way before the election, Obama's economic policies were utter crap but SOUNDED good to the masses.
Now, it's a "meh, what can you do" (and besides I'm almost on the opposite side of the globe so there's not much that could be done... and Obama might have been "the lesser of two evils" anyway).
Obama = economic collapse, but a "nicer" USA
McCain = economic borderline sustainability, same ole' USA as the past decade


well Obama at last will stop the black community cry for some time

Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.12.20 17:03:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: TimMc
Isn't anyone slightly worried that Obama supports this?

I was worried way before the election, Obama's economic policies were utter crap but SOUNDED good to the masses.
Now, it's a "meh, what can you do" (and besides I'm almost on the opposite side of the globe so there's not much that could be done... and Obama might have been "the lesser of two evils" anyway).
Obama = economic collapse, but a "nicer" USA
McCain = economic borderline sustainability, same ole' USA as the past decade


well Obama at last will stop the black community cry for some time


Oh, don't you believe it...the whining will reach fever pitch as African't Americans think they've got the Brother In Chief to cry to. "Spreading the wealth" was part of his campaign platform...as far as I'm concerned, the welfare line now runs right to the front door of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Izzy Lizzy
Gallente
Alien Gnome Bandits
Posted - 2008.12.20 17:32:00 - [39]
 

lol at those who see this as a free market capitalist problem. Just look at the facts. The Unions have looted the capital stock of these companies, and the workers themselves are wholly focused on their own well-being rather than that of the company and the consumer. The management is deeply embedded in the regulatory structure of the state, working to effectively turn the American car industry into a public-private partnership of the sort Mussolini would have applauded. The Big 3 might as well adopt the slogan, "It's not fascism when we do it".

To bail them out with tax dollars is an amazing insult to American consumers. What Americans have chosen not to buy, the government is now effectively forcing them to buy. You want a Toyota and paid for it with your money but your government is now saying that you should have bought a Pontiac, so it is tapping into your bank account to make it happen — and then not even giving you a car for your money!

A large part of the problem is the Big Three's cozy relationship with the United Auto Workers union (UAW). Thanks to the UAW, GM has a $73 hourly wage cost including benefits and overtime. Compare that with Toyota which has five major assembly plants in the U.S. Its hourly wage cost plus benefits is $48. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out which company will be at a competitive disadvantage. GM, Ford and Chrysler face other problems that range from poor corporate management and marketing, not to mention costly government regulations.

Congressmen and federal bureaucrats, including those at the Federal Reserve Board, don't know anymore about the automobile business than they know about the banking and financial businesses that they've turned into a mess. Just look at the idiotic focus of congressmen when the three auto company chief executives appeared before them. They questioned whether the executives should have driven to Congress rather than flown in on corporate jets. They focused on executive pay, which is a tiny fraction of costs compared to $73 hourly compensation to 250,000 autoworkers.

You want to save the American auto industry and the millions of jobs along with it. Kill the political power of the unions and return the industry to a free market system rather than a fascist one.


Roymundo
Caldari
Malevolence.
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2008.12.20 18:04:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Roymundo on 20/12/2008 18:08:29
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Jacob Mei


If anything good does come out of this ressession is that the lazy worker will finally be handed his pink slip.


Then we can tell them to go take one of the jobs that they complain about Mexicans coming across the boarder to take Twisted Evil Oh wait never mind; they would not be able to do those jobs because they are a bunch of self ritious lazy sods that do not know what an honest days work is Evil or Very Mad


Slade



hear hear!

in ireland we have the same problem. during the boom we had 400000 eastern europeans working here (out of a total population of 4 million, 1.6ish of whome were working)

given the choice between hiring someone who'll

a: (immigrant) work for less money, work harder, work faster, doesn't get sick all the time

b: (native) demand above average wages, lazy, slow, calls in sick every second day.

which would you choose if you were a business owner?

the only way america will recover is if they give the unions a firm kick up the jacksie.

Roymundo
Caldari
Malevolence.
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2008.12.20 18:06:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Motaka
Originally by: Kessiaan
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Its not surprising. If the American auto industry has any hopes they really need to kill off the unions. They were needed when they were first formed but now its overly full of lazy slobs who are over paid for what their jobs require them to do to the point that its an insult to other industries.

If anything good does come out of this ressession is that the lazy worker will finally be handed his pink slip.


I really have to agree with this - unions were absolutely necessary when they first formed but now they're nothing but a massive drain on productivity. Combine that with excessive corporate greed and you have recipe for fail - everyone is chasing the money but nobody is bothering to make the goods that generate the money in the first place.

Foreign companies have plenty of non-union production facilities in the US, and last I checked their employees got paid decently and were happy for the most part, so you can't just point at globalization and say the US workers having to compete with slaves in southeast Asia are the issue.


I dont know what the unions are like in the US,but here in blighty they are pretty much toothless,i was a member of the general workers union for 7 years and i might as well of burnt my £700 worth of subs in an ashtray.Good old maggie.Exclamation


maggie was legend!

if it wasn't for her you lot in blighty would still be at 20% unemployment and mining coal...she kicked out the unions and look: blighty recovered.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.12.20 19:39:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: ceaon
afaik Volkswagen+Audi+Skoda+Seat are the same company this days imo they build lot of cars



last thing I heard, VW is pretty much THE car builder of the west. Solid cars and you peeps saw that diesel-powered V12 twin-turbo R8?

I might be more of a honda fan (/me pets his '97 civic coupé LSi), but tbh WV is the only western company that has future.

of course that the Fiat company and all those that stem to it (Ferrari and such), are nice, and the Renault group started to make some nice offers for the next year, never mention the fact of the Pegeout group...

heck, the 4-liners seem to be the way to go tbh.
Originally by: Motaka
They do own all those companys,they also own lamborgini and bugatti BUT in turn porsche owns 31% of VW.

But Toyota is still the largest car manufacturer on the planet.Wink



Porsche is teh pwn. the latest 911 is eco-friendly (for the car that is), and is actually speedy. And the japanese car makers will also be hard to take down.



so yes, I can predict that the good ole' american V8 is in it's final. I can't see how GM and Chrysler will be able to make cars for the general populace that use the fuel-guzzling V8. Higher performance and supercars, yes, but not city cars.

Lord Zoran
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.12.20 20:13:00 - [43]
 

clarkson ftw tbh Very Happy

Aricaan
Gallente
Cobra Corp
Posted - 2008.12.20 23:08:00 - [44]
 

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/435069612_5kzTU-XL.jpg

Lol at the union know-it-alls. To say that the American worker is Lazy sounds very Classist.

Should have the UAW taken a pay cut when faced with the fact they could lose their jobs? Yes.

Does that mean all American unions are this powerful? No. I could write a whole book about how and why the Union is still important and needed in America.

Also please note that the decisions made by UAW dont nessicarly reflect those of its members. Thats like saying when President Bush failed to sign the Kyoto Protocol that all Americans were against it, even though it was approved by a 95-0 vote in the senate.

Shirley Serious
Amarr
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2008.12.21 14:53:00 - [45]
 

Some of the car makers in the UK are also asking for assistance.

Including the Land Rover group which was sold not that long ago to Indian industry giant Tata. Who knew when they bought it, that heavy investment and modernisation was needed. But you see, Tata is not short of funds.

British car industry went all pear shaped during the 70's, though it had started in the 60's. Nationalisation of the car firms, along with union resistance meant that modernisation of the factories, particularly the giant one at Longbridge was not done sufficiently.
Then, as well as strikes, you also had outbreaks of deliberate vandalism and sabotage by the trade unions, doing such things as putting loose screws in door panels, to create annoying rattles. And general lack of professionalism, especially on Friday afternoons.

Which meant that otherwise strong designs, with good mechanics, such as the Rover SD1, had shockingly poor build quality and reliability.
There were some rather **** cars, such as the Austin Allegro, but they were more **** than they should have been.
And the Government kept putting more money into the industry, until it was privatised.

Which sank the reputation of the industry. So people wouldn't buy the cars, regardless of how much the quality was improved. Mud sticks.

So now, the UK has a much smaller car industry than it should have had, thanks to mismanagement of nationalised industry, and union shenanigans.
"Don't buy our cars!" said the unions.
"OK" said the public.
"Help, no-ones buying our cars!" said the unions.
"OK" said the Government, throwing money at the problem.
And so the cycle continued, until Thatcher arrived, privatised everything, and then the whole industry more or less disappeared up it's own exhaust pipe.


But, you know the real killer behind the demise of the US and UK car industry?
Feminism.


Feminism meant that not only were women buying their own cars, it meant that husbands were obliged to listen to their wives when purchasing a new vehicle.

And women are more brand loyal than men generally are. A woman thinks "I like my Honda, I'll buy another Honda." A man thinks "Hey, that BMW looks pretty good, I'll give that a go after this Renault".

But if the car the woman buys is poor quality, then it turns them off buying that brand for the rest of their life. Like how if your first experience of particular sex acts is poor, you don't try it again for ages, if ever. And we also talk amongst ourselves a lot, which means that our friends are turned off that brand, and ***** to our husbands and boyfriends about it.

So trade union shenanigans making poor quality cars 30 years ago means that their reputation is forever tarnished when we have input into purchasing decisions.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.21 15:08:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 21/12/2008 15:21:01
The real problem are the people leading huge corporations. Many of them do not really know their products or their customer and worst of all, they do not want to have anything to do with them. The only thing they care about are their personal Bonuses and the stockmarket.

This leads to shortsighted behavior, were only the goals for the next 3 month matter and the people responsible are willing to throw product quality and customer satisfaction out of the windows and replace it with marketing crap.

Edit:
Unions in itself are not the problem, as long as they have reasonable demands. Many Volkswagen workers are in an union and a large part of the shares is still owned by the german state of lower saxony.

Another example would be the german automobile producer Opel, that is in fact a brand of GM. In the ninetees Opel suffered from poor product quality and a brand strategy that alienated it from its customerbase. Opel suffered heavily for this and when GM corporation dies then likely also Opel will cease to exist, despite massive investment into the brand in the last years.

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.12.21 15:46:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Akita T

After he made this ?




After watching that I have to say that is the first time EVER that I've seen a Humvee and a Escalade even remotely near dirt.

Had a chance to be in a Escalade once though and every inch of that interior is luxury. But the point stand though they are nothing more than a glorified jacked up towncar.

Calvin Firenze
Minmatar
Caeli Veredictum
Posted - 2008.12.21 16:14:00 - [48]
 

I was going to write something well thought out about my opinions, but I was thinking about government spending and my post went from budgetary concerns to a rant about our justice system. Don't ask me.

Keorythe
Caldari
Terra Rosa Militia
Posted - 2008.12.21 19:08:00 - [49]
 

Well it looks like the "bailout" isn't really a bailout. I keep hearing talk of a "soft chpt 11.". Basically this mean if they're smart the car companies getting this cash will pay off debts and liabilities. Possibly offering release packages to pensioners who stand to lose everything and some of the upper tenured vets (with as little UAW "advise" in the mix). Then once solvent, declare chapter 11 bankrupcy. This would effectively let the car companies start from 0 to rebuilt and retool their companies but at the same time not have left alot of their workers screwed to badly.

Might give them some major leverage against the UAW in the future as well. I don't think the UAW is going to come out of this unscathed. Not by a long shot. They're membership has already been taking a dive in the past 3 years. I see it plumeting pretty hard in the future.

Rondo Gunn
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.12.22 00:26:00 - [50]
 

I don't buy american cars because frankly most of them actually do REALLY suck when compared against other foreign manufacturers. I am american, so it saddens me to say that.



However, Jeremy is a prat. I think this has been proven enough times on Top Gear as it is....

Motaka
Caldari
Posted - 2008.12.22 00:40:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Rondo Gunn
I don't buy american cars because frankly most of them actually do REALLY suck when compared against other foreign manufacturers. I am american, so it saddens me to say that.



However, Jeremy is a prat. I think this has been proven enough times on Top Gear as it is....


That a very english word to be using for an american.Surprised,and no JC is not a prat he just dosent like america....or americans.....or the french,just like 95% of the UK population.YARRRR!!

Rondo Gunn
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.12.22 00:58:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Motaka


That a very english word to be using for an american.Surprised,and no JC is not a prat he just dosent like america....or americans.....or the french,just like 95% of the UK population.YARRRR!!


Ah, well I do watch alot of BBCa. And I thought it fit him well. He's great fun to laugh at since he's so uptight everytime he's wrong he seems to about to pop at the seams.

I hate patriotism and patriots. Im a fan of the human race...(sometimes). Why anyone is proud to have been born on a specific spot on our planet is completely beyond me.

More of the 'Us/Them' mentality that plagues us. It's disgusting.

Motaka
Caldari
Posted - 2008.12.22 01:12:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Rondo Gunn
Originally by: Motaka


That a very english word to be using for an american.Surprised,and no JC is not a prat he just dosent like america....or americans.....or the french,just like 95% of the UK population.YARRRR!!


Ah, well I do watch alot of BBCa. And I thought it fit him well. He's great fun to laugh at since he's so uptight everytime he's wrong he seems to about to pop at the seams.

I hate patriotism and patriots. Im a fan of the human race...(sometimes). Why anyone is proud to have been born on a specific spot on our planet is completely beyond me.

More of the 'Us/Them' mentality that plagues us. It's disgusting.


French hating is our real national sport,some people are under the misguided impression that its football,(soccer for all you from the colonies).

And nowt nothing wrong with patriotism,keeps our mind off the fact that it fkin raining AGAIN!!!!

baltec1
Posted - 2008.12.22 01:21:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: baltec1 on 22/12/2008 01:43:09
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Originally by: Akita T

After he made this ?




After watching that I have to say that is the first time EVER that I've seen a Humvee and a Escalade even remotely near dirt.

Had a chance to be in a Escalade once though and every inch of that interior is luxury. But the point stand though they are nothing more than a glorified jacked up towncar.


You should see the range rover sport vs challenger 2.

Hopefully this bailout will mean that Americans wont have put up with crap cars any more. The latest Ford Pickup had to be classified as a truck in the UK because it failed every single car safety testugh

Who knows, some day GM might build a rival to the mighty toyota hilux and get more than 2 miles per galon. Which brings me to a rather odd question. Why is it that the Ford Fiesta is not sold in America? Its not a bad car, infact its better than almost everything over there.

rValdez5987
Amarr
Imperial Guard.
Posted - 2008.12.22 07:02:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Akita T
$17.4 billion in rescue loans for carmakers



I supported this bailout. It forces the automakers (afaik) to become viable by the end of march or repay the loans, and basically cease to exist. to my understanding, the automakers may have to file a chapter 7 bankruptcy (to come up with assets to pay loan in full).

I will not lie when I say that I want the automakers to fail. I want the unions to fail. This country has become full of lazy, fat, people who are overpaid, and work very little, inefficiently, causing us not to be competitive with the rest of the world. Now as I've heard time and time again "not everyone is the same" Thats a flawed argument. Majority rules, and the majority are worthless here.

Every place I've worked at both white collar and blue collar jobs, They have always sneered at me.. "Why are you working so hard?"

This country sickens me.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.22 13:31:00 - [56]
 

It's funny to see how an allegedly capitalist country slowly turns socialist as the government starts to take stock in pretty much every failed big business Laughing
The bad news is that I really doubt the government will be able to do much good once it gets control.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.12.22 14:28:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: baltec1
over there.


couldn't read, your sig is too epic :)


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