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blankseplocked invention needs fixing still??
 
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Immortalade
No.Mercy
Merciless.
Posted - 2008.12.17 13:04:00 - [1]
 

is it just me or is invention still in need of fixing.
i have a corp member who has trained every skill to help in invention to the maximum,yet success rate when inventing still seems to be ridiculously low.
as an example, put in 7 invention jobs yesterday and only had 1 success!!!
i honestly feel that the best thing they could do with invention is make success rate 100%.
this would maybe encourage more people to do invention in my opinion.
the way it is done at the moment i think lots of people are put off.
think about it this way, if you decide you would like to try and invent a jump freighter bpc. items you need:-
1 freighter bpc average price -80mill
64 datacores mechanical engineering - 22.5 milion
64 starship datacores -20 million

an investment of 120 mill thats not including extra things you may put in to increase chance of success, or ME lvl or number of runs.
to see this come back as failed is frustrating and feels like i may as well have just thrown isk away.

after a failure like that it makes you reluctant to try again so you end up buying already invented bpc's for inflated prices.
100% success would lower prices and open up t2 building to lot more people.

this is just my opinion and i am sure there are many who will disagree with me.
would be interested to hear peoples views on this idea though?

apologies if it has been mentioned before in another post.

McDuke
Abnormal Experience
Posted - 2008.12.17 13:17:00 - [2]
 

Look... It's random... 7 invention jobs is such a small number you really can't draw any conclusions from it. I have done hundreds of invention jobs and it's working fine for me (without every skill maxed).
Why should "everyone" be able to invent jump freighters? Everyone isn't able to build motherships and titans either so what's the problem?
Have you even done the math about how much material will you need to build the jump freighter? And you go around that 120M investment in datacores and BPC is the deal breaker...

Throw a 6 sided dice 7 times and count how many times will you get 5 or 6 out. Chances are about the same as with invention.

Ghoest
Posted - 2008.12.17 16:31:00 - [3]
 

No one ever makes a post b!tching that they had run with too many successes.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2008.12.17 17:16:00 - [4]
 

It does need fixing. Yesterday I did 5 invention jobs and had 4 successes. If invention chance is that high we will soon be drowning in T2 stuff and it'll be less worth than T1 in the long run. Sad

Originally by: Ghoest
No one ever makes a post b!tching that they had run with too many successes.

That good?Razz

PS: I really did have 4 of 5 yesterday but with the 395 other inventions it evened out at the expected rate for my skills.Wink

tun
Pacific Rim Holdings
Posted - 2008.12.17 17:28:00 - [5]
 

What they should do is with every level of training you get a 5% chance of success so you need three skills to do an invention in that sense if you max all your skills you get a 75% chance of success and if you use anything additional it increases the chances even more.

ScottyDosn'tKnow
Divine Power.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2008.12.17 17:59:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
No one ever makes a post b!tching that they had run with too many successes.


So I got the BPC's and data cores togeather to run 30 jobs for 3 different sizes of rail guns and I got 25 successes. (without max skills) Now I can't afford to build all of this stuff! CCP you SUCK!

Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
Posted - 2008.12.17 19:08:00 - [7]
 

Ok, i'll bite this time...

100% succes rate. Sounds nice, doesnt it?

How about an "I Win" button in ships? Whenever you meet a hostile ship and you know you are in the best ship considering all factors such as speed, dmg, tank etc, you just press the "i Win" button and your oppenent blows up? Sounds silly doesnt it?

But as an industrialist, not playing the game for in space pew, pew I would like the "I Win" button as it would mean more deaths and item loss which would lead to increased demand, which sounds really good to me...

If you dont care about the industrial game play, dont tell CCP to 'fix' it, and I wont tell CCP how to 'fix' combat.

Ok?

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.12.17 20:51:00 - [8]
 

Yes, Invention is broken. I recommend quitting until the next major patch. I've already sold all my invention gear since I figure it will only decline in price.

Wahjoo
Minmatar
Ghoulish Endeavors
Zodiac Otherworld Mining
Posted - 2008.12.17 21:56:00 - [9]
 

Just think of it as a "mini-lotto". Before invention, you had to win (and be able to buy with RPs) a certain BPO. Now, even though they are BPCs, you can not only choose what BPC you get, but the odds of getting it are lightyears higher then with the former system.

So you loose a few BPs along the way...boo hoo.

If the odds went up to 100% as you are suggesting, then everyone would have T2 and it would no longer be "special". As far as i'm concerned, the less people doing it the better. It cuts down on the competition YARRRR!!

Suncats Shadow
Caldari
PuttieTat Lab Rats
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:44:00 - [10]
 

I have only tried a couple of inventions and knew about the low success rate.
My skills are ok; but so far I have had no success on them.

What I wish CCP would add is a dynamic skill for those people doing invention.
Something along the lines of 'you succeeded with X, so you get a +% chance to that type of invention next time'.

I think is would be more along the lines of ships, ammo, rigs, modules; so that it would not become a huge DB nightmare to manage. I think it could also be added to the character sheet, kind of like the certificates have been added.

Just my two iskies worth.

Abigail101
Posted - 2008.12.18 12:49:00 - [11]
 

Recently ran 9 consecutive sets of 8 invention slots for marauders (one of the lowest success chances) and got precisely one success from each set.

The regularity had me worried for a while until on the 10th set I got no successess (which acutally relieved me in a bizarre way) and then 3 successess on the 11th.

So, just keep plugging away and take the rough with the smooth (and make sure you have a reliable source of datacores if you're doing the bigger stuff Wink).

Immortalade
No.Mercy
Merciless.
Posted - 2008.12.18 14:46:00 - [12]
 

after reading these responses, i get general idea that success rate i have is in line with everyone else.
i only do about 20-30 invention attempts per month so am very small scale compared to others.
my op was made at a time when i had another run of failures and i was feeling very bitter at whole invention aspect of eve.
i will keep going though and just enjoy successess more.
was a good feeling recently having built a rhea that was obtained through a bpc invented by my corp Smile

Zombie Kenny
RDK Research Inc.
Posted - 2008.12.18 15:55:00 - [13]
 

I've had 8/8 runs succeed, Ive also had 8/8 fail, most often I get around 4 or so, +/- 1 or 2, with items that should be around 50%. Ive now run a few hundred jobs, and its always been at around this rate.
I invented a few Ishkurs awhile back, got 70% success out of like 30 jobs, or something like that, but I did keres and got 1 success out of 16. So yeah, it varies a lot, you just have to do enough runs so the average becomes what you get as a whole.

Mad Crafter
Valor Inc.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2008.12.18 22:27:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Suncats Shadow
What I wish CCP would add is a dynamic skill for those people doing invention.
Something along the lines of 'you succeeded with X, so you get a +% chance to that type of invention next time'.



This would ether have to be an insignificant amount, or it would prevent new inventors from starting up.

SPQRMocton
Minmatar
Vertigo Heavy Industries
Vertigo Coalition
Posted - 2008.12.23 12:32:00 - [15]
 

I have had too much success w invention , there someone posted it , LOL

Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.12.23 13:33:00 - [16]
 

Keep in mind if you are inventing something expensive, you would be better off using an expensive decryptor which can give you a 60% bonus to success.

But I like the idea of just doing away with chance and making its a guarunteed success, IF you made it harder in other way. More datacores, higher skills, longer job times, etc. WHy not just require invention skill 1 for frigates, 2 for destroyers, 3 for cruisers, 4 for BC, 5 for BS, or something similar? NOt fool proof, just a nother way to achieve same result.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2008.12.23 13:37:00 - [17]
 

You already have a guaranteed success if you invest enough time and resources into it.
It's all stochastic.

Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
Posted - 2008.12.24 20:27:00 - [18]
 

There have definitely been some changes to invention since Quantum Rise, but I think they may be item specific. I have been inventing Tech 2 cruisers (25%) and Drones full time since Trinity and of the 500+ cruiser inventions before QR hit I was averaging 7/20 (35%) with 4 Mobile labs and two characters at 4/4/4. Never got below a 4/20 and twice I received a 10/20 and once an 11/20.

Since Quantum Rise I have done 500+ Inventions, the first 200 inventions with the 4 mobile labs I have been averaging 4/20 and twice the best I could get was 2/20 which if you take data core costs in account works out to be a loss. I then added 3 mobile labs to the medium tower, 4 characters doing invention (4/4/4, 5/4/4, 5/5/4 and 5/5/5) for a total of 35 simultaneous inventions.

After 300+ with 7 mobile labs my average is up to 7 but that is out of 35 tries, the best I have had was a 10/35. I have also noticed that for certain BPCs where you have the option to select two different Tech 2 cruiser types; the success rate of one versus the other is nearly 2 to 1. Since running all 7 labs and 300+ inventions I have had a 2/35 and a yesterday a 1/35, the successful invention was the Tech 2 cruiser that has the higher success rate by the character with 4/4/4 skills.

Although I have not done nearly as many drone inventions, drones appear to be unaffected before and after QR.

Alex555
Posted - 2008.12.24 20:50:00 - [19]
 


invention is a tough and very expensive business.

either u can afford it or u leave it.

Etchyboy
Minmatar
Firman AB
101010 Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.25 07:22:00 - [20]
 

I would be happy with a 50%~60% success rate :( as it stands not I think I am at a 30%.

Franciska Storm
Posted - 2008.12.25 08:05:00 - [21]
 

- 28.2% success for me on the last 15 days of december.

Tolan
Amarr
Setenta Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.12.25 10:21:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
You already have a guaranteed success if you invest enough time and resources into it.
It's all stochastic.


What he said

Originally by: Alex555

invention is a tough and very expensive business.

either u can afford it or u leave it.


And what he said.....

If you dont know what your doing you will fail and loose LOTS of isk. Science and industry equivalent of PVP

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.12.25 10:41:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
No one ever makes a post b!tching that they had run with too many successes.

I have had 70% success on a 30% ship.

Gunner Chick
Posted - 2008.12.25 18:01:00 - [24]
 

i dunno, i just knew that people would try to turn something meant to allow access to the tech 2 market into a full blown industrial juggernaught...and then whine heavily when they smelled they weren't able to pump out product endlessly.

You need more jobs!!!!!! the %'s will pan out in the end.

Paisley Snatch
Posted - 2008.12.29 05:48:00 - [25]
 

I've only done mauraders with lvl 4 skills and max chance decryptors and it hasn't been that bad. Some times its depressing because I'll go 10-15 times without a success but then I'll have a string of 90% success.

If it hurts too much to do invention then just stop. There's plenty of isk to be made in T1 production with zero risk involved.

I definitely wouldn't do jump freighter invention, you're just asking for disappointment doing that.

Paisley Snatch

Kirra Liu
Serenity Rising.
Posted - 2008.12.29 07:00:00 - [26]
 

I have done about 20 missile invention jobs and about 40% were a success, also done 1 cruiser invention job and that was also a success. I like invention Very Happy

Abrazzar
Posted - 2008.12.29 07:07:00 - [27]
 

My last 100 invention jobs came out with a 54% success rate. Nothing broken here.

Kalika Binat
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.12.31 07:29:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Kalika Binat on 31/12/2008 07:29:39
Originally by: Lone Gunman
There have definitely been some changes to invention since Quantum Rise, but I think they may be item specific. I have been inventing Tech 2 cruisers (25%) and Drones full time since Trinity and of the 500+ cruiser inventions before QR hit I was averaging 7/20 (35%) with 4 Mobile labs and two characters at 4/4/4. Never got below a 4/20 and twice I received a 10/20 and once an 11/20.

Since Quantum Rise I have done 500+ Inventions, the first 200 inventions with the 4 mobile labs I have been averaging 4/20 and twice the best I could get was 2/20 which if you take data core costs in account works out to be a loss. I then added 3 mobile labs to the medium tower, 4 characters doing invention (4/4/4, 5/4/4, 5/5/4 and 5/5/5) for a total of 35 simultaneous inventions.

After 300+ with 7 mobile labs my average is up to 7 but that is out of 35 tries, the best I have had was a 10/35. I have also noticed that for certain BPCs where you have the option to select two different Tech 2 cruiser types; the success rate of one versus the other is nearly 2 to 1. Since running all 7 labs and 300+ inventions I have had a 2/35 and a yesterday a 1/35, the successful invention was the Tech 2 cruiser that has the higher success rate by the character with 4/4/4 skills.

Although I have not done nearly as many drone inventions, drones appear to be unaffected before and after QR.


similar to this guy except i used 4 characters running 10 jobs each at a time, after the patch there was a considerable downturn in successful results.I was making a profit but after 3 weeks of very little success ive called it quits and have sold up.

Avalon Champion
Black Thorne Corporation
Posted - 2008.12.31 08:53:00 - [29]
 


Theres nothing much wrong with the current invention process, it could probably do with a few tweaks, but nothing major.

I was able to get 50-60% success with average skills on Armour hardeners, and Engergized plating, with 40-50% on Med Neutron Blasters,30-40% on Hammerheads. Ships have always been my achillies heal, somewhere around 10-20% for frigates and cruisers.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2008.12.31 11:49:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Immortalade
is it just me or is invention still in need of fixing.
i have a corp member who has trained every skill to help in invention to the maximum,yet success rate when inventing still seems to be ridiculously low.
as an example, put in 7 invention jobs yesterday and only had 1 success!!!



This exemple is statistically completely meaningless. You need dozens upon dozens of jobs to get a feel about the chances of success.

Quote:

i honestly feel that the best thing they could do with invention is make success rate 100%.
this would maybe encourage more people to do invention in my opinion.



What makes you think there is a need for more inventors in the economy?

Quote:

the way it is done at the moment i think lots of people are put off.
think about it this way, if you decide you would like to try and invent a jump freighter bpc. items you need:-
1 freighter bpc average price -80mill
64 datacores mechanical engineering - 22.5 milion
64 starship datacores -20 million

an investment of 120 mill thats not including extra things you may put in to increase chance of success, or ME lvl or number of runs.
to see this come back as failed is frustrating and feels like i may as well have just thrown isk away.

after a failure like that it makes you reluctant to try again so you end up buying already invented bpc's for inflated prices.



You barely start getting your toes wet in invention, and already trying to invent the most costly stuff?

I see no decryptor in your exemple. You DID use one, right?

Complaining about the cost of jump freighter invention is like complaining about not being able to do lv4 missions in a cruiser. if it's too much for you, you're just not ready for it yet.

Quote:

100% success would lower prices and open up t2 building to lot more people.


Again, what makes you think it would be good for the economy as a whole? There's already enough producers to keep up with the demand.

Too many inventors would increase the pressure on moon materials (like dypro isn't high enough already), causing an increase of T2 production cost for everyone, and reduce the margins by adding more competition. You're really sure you want that?



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