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Dijad Iths
Gallente
OMNI Technologies
PowerDucks Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.13 10:56:00 - [1]
 

Just to make this plain up front, I am not against combat. I became a capsuleer with the intention of being a bounty hunter. Many who got their license want to be. A good fight, a challenge, and a realistic justice system are what I and many other people want. That said, what I am about to propose will draw heat from grievers who style themselves as pirates. These are not to be confused with actual pirates, people who do this because they think its fun and it’s their fantasy to be a pirate in a our world.

But, we have a problem in this world we call EVE. In this clone driven time we live in, death of a pod can be meaningless, especially in the case of empty jump clones. An offshoot of this is a crippling of the bounty system. At any time, a pilot with a bounty on his or her head can have a friend or lackey (alternate account) kill them and collect the victims money. Any objective thinker would see this as flawed, pirate or no pirate.

So while prospecting in low sec for hidden belts, as high sec mining is about as interesting as shooting fish in barrel with high tech small arms and I can’t make start as a bounty hunter, I brainstormed for a solution. A friend of mine, Veloneous Valen, was on comms, keeping me company and bouncing around ideas with me, as he too had wanted to become a bounty hunter, but became frustrated and moved on to other things. Right before he had to leave, the solution came to me. He thought it was good, and I refined it a little more after he left.

Here it is: pilots attacked by pirates can pay CONCORD for their kill rights to be turned into bounties, with pods being at least 100mil to bounty and only possible if the victim was poded. When the target is killed by a bounty hunter, he or she (the target) gets charged the amount of the bounty plus 10%, or whatever CONCORD deems fair. This solves several issues;

1. Bounty hunters have not been able to attack targets high sec without CONCORD and gate/station gun intervention. As these would be kill rights, this would no longer be an issue, and the target would gain no kill rights on the bounty hunter.

2. It would no longer be possible to profit from killing oneself through friends or lackeys, as the target is charged the bounty plus 10%. When one is killed, it will biteTwisted Evil.

3. Pilots with a high security status have been able to go low sec, kill someone, and return to high sec with no repercussion. This would no longer work, as the bounty would be placed through the kill rights. If you kill someone without being attacked, you will more than likely have to pay, no matter the circumstance.

Now, here’s the balance to all this “stringent, justice wielding” goodness. Kill rights, and thus the bounties attached to them, will still expire. One could pay a fee to have the time extended, but it would be hefty, would not add to the bounty, and the target would not have to pay this in any way. So with this in place, pirates would have to wait for the “heat” to wear off before “coming back to town”. As CONCORD would ignore them as before, they could still sneak in, but at their own risk. And if desperate, they could pay the bounty themselves. This would ultimately give rise to a more ordered world. A distinct underworld would emerge, made up of people willing to deal with pirates as fences, buying their loot cheaper and selling it high sec for them. Others could make ISK smuggling supplies down to them, thus creating a vibrant criminal element. Gone would be the days of the cheap criminal attacking the odd industrialist in a low sec asteroid belt, as the cost may prove greater than gain to any would be pirate unwilling to commit to his deeds and the lifestyle of the underworld. It is my hope that pilots and CONCORD (CCP) alike would read and seek the implementation of this solution to the bounty system.

To justice, and every pilot who ever wished to bounty hunt,

Dijad Iths

z0de
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2008.12.13 11:20:00 - [2]
 

Anyone else look at this and go "EEUUAHH"

Type less and keep your ideas short and too the point, well done for paragraphs though.

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.12.13 11:45:00 - [3]
 

There's a problem with being a bounty hunter in eve? This has surely never been discussed here before

N'tek alar
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.12.13 17:32:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: N''tek alar on 13/12/2008 17:32:35
Really?

So what in this system exactly prevents said pirate from podding himself with an alt to get rid of the bounty and transferring the cash charged back from the alt?

The 10% extra? Do you honestly think that will stop people from doing it?

If so, What would you rather do, pay 10 mill to get rid of the bounty, Or hope noone manages to pod you in the coming 3 months which would cost you 110 mill?

And if you think that 10 mill loss would "bite".... get a better source of income.

Xephys
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.12.13 19:25:00 - [5]
 

Ok, call me stupid or whatever, but I've read through this, and your summary appears to be


'Here it is: pilots attacked by pirates can pay CONCORD for their kill rights to be turned into bounties, with pods being at least 100mil to bounty and only possible if the victim was poded. When the target is killed by a bounty hunter, he or she (the target) gets charged the amount of the bounty plus 10%, or whatever CONCORD deems fair. This solves several issues;'

This whole thing is pretty confusing, but I get the general idea, I think. However, that last part 'When the target is killed by a bounty hunter, he or she (the target) gets charged the amount of the bounty plus 10%' By the target I'm guessing you mean the pirate. Why would the pirate have to pay anything in this scenario?

Maybe I'm missing something, but your post is way too long for an issue which doesn't have to be written about in such detail.

td;lr for stupid people like me? :(

Kirra Liu
Serenity Rising.
Posted - 2008.12.13 19:34:00 - [6]
 

tl;dr

Military Experts are calling this a boring OP

Tai Paktu
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2008.12.13 20:10:00 - [7]
 

I can't see any reason for the bounty to be taken out of the pirate's wallet. Besides, what happens if the target doesn't have the amount when killed? They go negative?

Good on you for trying to hash out a solution, but this one needs a lot more work. I'd suggest Features and Ideas for more positive discussion and less flames.

Dijad Iths
Gallente
OMNI Technologies
PowerDucks Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.13 23:06:00 - [8]
 

You're not stupid, and yes, I was abit long winded. I also agree that I should post this elsewhere for a more contructive enviroment, but the reaction of this community is part of what I wanted. To answer why a pirate would be charged for the bounty on thier head is this: he or she will not make any money off of filling the bounty and giving the money back to that character. Granted, one could still use another account, but that's fine. They are having pay for another account to make that possible, so in the end they're still paying. And I didn't say 10 mil. I said the bounty plus 10% of the bounty, which is set by the poster. The whole idea behind this is to make bounties something with weight, a consequence that can be exacted by those who choose to make that their job. Which is what a bounty is. And yes, this would send wallets negative. But piracy is a risky, taking advantage of the weakness of others business, no? Any one participating would know of the risks in advance, and if they choose to continue like real world pirates, they will take on any rewards and any punishments..

Tai Paktu
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2008.12.13 23:53:00 - [9]
 

I just see this is a not only a mechanic for potential griefing but also as an entriely unbalanced nerf to piracy.

Not all piracy occurs on helpless targets. A lot of the things we kill try to kill us back. And while this may make some sort of sense in the way you think of it (I'd have to disagree) as potentially hurting pirates who only camp gates or smartbomb shuttles, it has the potential to devastate pirates who looks for solo or small gang PvP against capable opponents.

It's hard enough as is to make ISK on a pure piracy character with no alts. What you're proposing could lead to pirates consistently being kept in the red, which would be dumb.

Like I said, I think your theory needs a lot of work.

Xephys
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.12.14 00:05:00 - [10]
 

So wait. You're actually proposing that someone puts money on a Pirate's head so the pirate will have to pay? Woah. Do you realise how quickly pirating would become extinct in this manner?

This would be the ultimate griefing tool for anti-pies and ****ed off carebears.

If you're a real bounty hunter, find a pirate with a bounty, locate him through info/agents and hunt him down. It's how people do it now, instead of proposing this frankly insane idea of killing off piracy.

Dijad Iths
Gallente
OMNI Technologies
PowerDucks Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.14 01:11:00 - [11]
 

Just to clarify, the poster would pay the ammount also, not just the pirate. The bounty wouldn't be limitless, and would wear off with time, which could be adjusted from the present 1 month kill rights time, maybe the time diminshing because of bounty being made public, to say, a week.

Kurann
Tribe of One
Tribal Conclave
Posted - 2008.12.14 06:35:00 - [12]
 

why should i have to pay for you to kill me? this makes little to no sence, you are now "punishing" pirates twice. the loss of a ship and at least 110m... don't know if you heard, piracy doesn't make you a lot of money on its own. Here a better idea, something you started off with, but lost track of a good idea.

Conractable kill rights/bounties.

say some big bad piwate kills someone, you could then contract your kill rights with a bounty to a bounty hunter. of course it would have to be a sizeable bounty otherwise no one would take the risk, which potentially takes most noobs out of the picture. Now heres a solution for you. Find an Anti-Pirate corp and join it. Bounty Hunting is not a viable profession atm, and i don't see it in the future, all you can do is anti-yar and sell dropped mods if you get any kills.

If you want to be righteous then go for it, if you want to make money, find a new job.

If I wanted to make money i wouldn't be a pirate, I wanted to violence boats, i became a pirate.

Professer Kyoto
Posted - 2008.12.14 09:14:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Professer Kyoto on 14/12/2008 09:14:47
I hadn't thought of it on an individual basis, in the end I think that sounds better. Less convoluted, nothing the target can do about it unless he manages to be the one to get his own contract with an alt.

Like I said, several people I've met wanted to be bounty hunters when they started playing, but got frustrated with the mechanics.

Now that we have the CSM, maybe we could push for kill right contracts, and make bounty hunting something you could make money off of a little less randomly and enjoy some pvp at the same time. Many more people would join the ranks of pvp if this was an option. There's something about the bounty hunt that appeals, and its about time CCP fixed this.

Will be yelling loudly for this elsewhere,

Dijad Iths

EDIT: Didn't mean to post with alt, lol

Skira Ranos
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2008.12.14 10:12:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Skira Ranos on 14/12/2008 10:13:07
Originally by: Kurann
why should i have to pay for you to kill me? this makes little to no sence, you are now "punishing" pirates twice. the loss of a ship and at least 110m... don't know if you heard, piracy doesn't make you a lot of money on its own. Here a better idea, something you started off with, but lost track of a good idea.

Conractable kill rights/bounties.

say some big bad piwate kills someone, you could then contract your kill rights with a bounty to a bounty hunter. of course it would have to be a sizeable bounty otherwise no one would take the risk, which potentially takes most noobs out of the picture. Now heres a solution for you. Find an Anti-Pirate corp and join it. Bounty Hunting is not a viable profession atm, and i don't see it in the future, all you can do is anti-yar and sell dropped mods if you get any kills.

If you want to be righteous then go for it, if you want to make money, find a new job.

If I wanted to make money i wouldn't be a pirate, I wanted to violence boats, i became a pirate.


People have been kicking this idea around for quite a while, and I rather like it. HOWEVER, I believe it isn't enough.

My favorite fix for this is to award bounty on the termination of the pirate's SHIP, and to only award the market value of the ship (insurance payout) to the bounty hunter. IE if a target bounty was 100m, and you killed the pirate while he or she was flying a battleship with an insurance payout of around 85m, 85m would be removed from their bounty and given to the bounty hunter. If the amount was less than the sum of the ships value, all would be transfered.

For this to really work, however, they first have to fix T2 insurance payouts and second have to fix the whole insurance system so that pirates (or at least full, flashy red outlaws) dont get insurance payouts for their ships. This makes both in-game sense (why would insurance companies insure pirates?) and also helps fix the imbalance of high-sec ganking (not enough risk for the gankers).

But if it was implemented, I could see both bounty hunting and piracy becoming more interesting professions.

Amicus
Gold Diggers Inc.
Posted - 2008.12.14 23:39:00 - [15]
 

Dijad good topic.

Skira Ranos has the right idea in my estimation -- though I would include more than just the ship in determining the amount to payout.

See discussion (now closed) BOUNTY REFORM: Payout Cap at Value of Destroyed Property.

Contract hits are fine, but they are not bounty hunting. A bounty can consist of the small contributions of 100's of grieved noobs. A contract hit is something done only by an experienced player with lots of isk and excellent knowledge of who can be trusted to execute the contract without colluding with the target.

I do not like the idea of "licensing" bounty hunters. A bounty target should never know who to trust. A bounty can be collected by a hero or a traitor. From the perspective of the bounty payer, it does not matter who punishes the target -- just that the target is punished.

Unfortunately, the Devs have bounty reform very low on their task list. At the rate they are going we can expect to see a fix to the bounty system in about another seven years.ugh
Amicus

Avaricia
The Accursed
Space Jerks
Posted - 2008.12.15 00:25:00 - [16]
 

i didn't read the op, but it sure makes me want to come dismantle your alliance again.

your labs make for awesome loot.

Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
Posted - 2008.12.15 21:10:00 - [17]
 

The simple solution to bounty hunting is - do not show the amount of the bounty. People will be less likely to have an alt pod themself if the bounty might be 5k isk. Bounty hunters will still want to get the kills and want to find out, and get, whatever the bounty may be.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2008.12.15 21:36:00 - [18]
 

I just wish they fix the bounty system so I can get a bounty these days. Granted, I always get like 250K or something stupid, but hey, I get a skull for it Cool

Its almost embarrassing to be -10.0 and NOT have a bounty Razz

Cale Zimmer
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.12.15 23:46:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Dijad Iths
When the target is killed by a bounty hunter, he or she (the target) gets charged the amount of the bounty plus 10%, or whatever CONCORD deems fair.

lol, so i die and end up paying the person who blew me up. First time I think I've seen a death tax proposed in eve.

Rivur'Tam
Posted - 2008.12.16 03:31:00 - [20]
 

OK

stop and think if you are -10 kill rights mean nothing

so the kill rights idea is useless except in a few cases of these wanna be -1.9 pirates.

There would need to be some system that stops the pirates getting the bounty for themselves and in all honesty who actually puts bounty on people apart from nubs.

All the high bountys are put on by the char himself or by his m8's taking the ****.



Only way it does any harm is if u put on a low amount so that guy gets made primary.

alexreborn
Invicta.
Posted - 2008.12.16 06:55:00 - [21]
 

There are only 2 ways for a pirate to get podded in low sec.:
A) They are ******ed, and suck at this game, which means they suck as pirates and wont have a big bounty.
B) Their game crashes when their ship explodes/lag, and cant warp out in time.

Dawts
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.12.17 00:52:00 - [22]
 

tl;dr

To fix the bounty system in 3 easy steps.
1. Make a bounty minumum of 100mil or so
2. Make having a bounty give everyone kill rights, i.e. no protection in high sec
3. (and most important) Make the death of the person with a bounty hurt.

The reason the current bounty system fails is who cares about dying if you're getting paid for it?

If CCP really wants to use the bounty system work, all they need is to make the death of someone with a bounty on their head hurt.

And this is where my idea falls short.... I can't think of any fair way to penalize someones death.

Garvi
bish bash bosh
Session Changes
Posted - 2008.12.17 01:07:00 - [23]
 

How bout no.

tiller
THE PILLAGE
Posted - 2008.12.17 09:02:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: tiller on 17/12/2008 09:05:02

best idea yet (which is mine)

new lvl6 security missions introduced where bounty'd players are given by agents to assasinate. the agent would give last known location of the player..

on killing the players ship, the isk would be transerred from the pirates bounty to the player as a reward.

would make having a bounty a scary and fun thing all at same time with some real meaning...

don't think the system would be open to abuse either..


edit: lower bounty players could be given as targets on lower lvl missions, the pirate with bounty would not be safe anywhere and mission runner would auto get kill rights.


CCP DO THIS, BEST IDEA EVER!

2ndAdam
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.12.17 09:15:00 - [25]
 

but grief is just so fun...

Flossing
Flush Gordon and The Toilet Ducks of Death
Posted - 2008.12.17 10:08:00 - [26]
 

Lol you expect the pirate who got podded to pay the bounty? thats the most crazy idea ive heard.
You do actually know what a bounty is right?

Flossing
Flush Gordon and The Toilet Ducks of Death
Posted - 2008.12.17 10:19:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Flossing on 17/12/2008 10:20:31
To make bounties work all you need is to do the following:-

Allow the person who puts up the bounty, to contract the bounty to other players. This way only the people he has contracted too, can collect the bounty.

No need for complicated over the top rules. The solution really is that simple

Dihania
Gallente
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.17 10:28:00 - [28]
 

I believe having ideas is not a bad thing, but your idea is borked because there is no way to make the pirate pay for his loss from his own wallet.

A small step in the right direction is to create a new job, officially, within EvE. The bounty hunter job.
In order to become a bounty hunter a pilot must fulfill some criteria like for example:
* have a positive sec status of +3 or higher
* have good standing with concord (can you run missions for concord ? - if not add these missions and these are mission without reward, missions just for standings in order to become a BH) above a certain limit, enough to require effort..
* be part of a NPC corporation for bounty hunters
* or be part of a bounty hunter player run corporation (the system is in place for these as corps can join FW for example - same system but for BH..)
* once the sec status drops under +3 the pilot is booted form the NPC BH corp or while in the Player run BH corp, he can no longer act as a BH and will be flag according to current game mechanics.


This would bring something new: a player can join a NPC corp of his own will.
Being in the NPC bounty hunter corporation should have some drawbacks: * high tax,
* max limit on the bounty: for example the max bounty a pilot from the NPC BH corp can take is 200mil ISK,
* and pay an additional % tax from the bounty.

Only BH can cash in on the bounty.

This will be abused as well but not as much as it is today.

A nasty drawback:
It does not make much sense to me to get the bounty only if you are a registered BH. It is nice when you kill someone in normal combat and you see your wallet blinking and just then realize the guy had a bounty.


spinarax
Spawns of Thanatos
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2008.12.17 11:45:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Flossing
Edited by: Flossing on 17/12/2008 10:20:31
To make bounties work all you need is to do the following:-

Allow the person who puts up the bounty, to contract the bounty to other players. This way only the people he has contracted too, can collect the bounty.

No need for complicated over the top rules. The solution really is that simple


what he said...

also maybe more options on setting who can get the bounty, certain corp, certain sec status, or even standings... so maybe we can actually see a dedicated Bounty Hunting Corp/char advertising in C&P.. and maybe, a new info in the "Bounty" menu in stations which show top bounty hunters and their stats..

btw, shouldnt this be moved to "Features and Ideas Discussion"?


 

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