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Carter VanSandt
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:21:00 - [1711]
 

Originally by: SemiCharmed


And eve would be a hell of alot more interesting and i would sure as hell take more pride in every kill i get knowing it will make a huge impact on the person that just lost his ship with very little but expencive gear on the market...
.....




You get off on the misery of others? Thats pretty far on the *****ed up ladder dude.

Kaptain Kruncher
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:22:00 - [1712]
 

They didn't tell you anything yet asshat- it's being investigated.

Pithecanthropus
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:24:00 - [1713]
 

Originally by: Annaphera

2) Please prove a link between this exploit and the introduction of "alchemy", and it better be good considering "alchemy" was released a while ago and BEFORE the exploit was identified. Unless you can prove the above, accusing CCP of making you learn alchemy to fix anything is just babble.


Quote:
The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process.


Yes... CCP is telling us to us alchemy to fix the problem.

I don't expect anything from CCP. It's been quite obvious over the years they won't do a damn thing to help the main player base. All their bugs, exploits, and bad decisions over the years and NOT ONE fix to benefit those that stand by this game and play as it is intended.

You can sit there and call it all tin foil hatery... but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this company has failed massively on massive scales time after time... again and again.

I'm not out seeking a perfect game... there's bound to be bugs... but players should not be penalized from the exploits of others. CCP will not take accountability, and that is what makes them one of the worst gaming companies ever.

Annaphera
Minmatar
United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:24:00 - [1714]
 

Originally by: xaja

Oh god, CCP....

first: by all accounts, this was petitioned much earlier than you claim; years ago - right after moonmining was introduced to the game!

So now, finally you make a big stink about it? Icelandic sleepy heads! Is it the cold up there? Have you run out of your special antifreeze?
Sheesh...you've got the word of a single individual that was banned against that of CCP. A vengeful cheater's word vs. that of a corp with a history of bungled customer service. Why are you automatically assuming the cheater is the more honest? You think he's got no reason to lie...a lot? Thus far, the market isn't backing him up, nor does the level of action taken by CCP. I guess we'll see in the long run, but I'm not assuming the exploiter is honest.

Doctor Penguin
Amarr
Sacred Templars
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:34:00 - [1715]
 

Originally by: Pithecanthropus
I don't expect anything from CCP. It's been quite obvious over the years they won't do a damn thing to help the main player base. All their bugs, exploits, and bad decisions over the years and NOT ONE fix to benefit those that stand by this game and play as it is intended.


Obviously nobody suffered from the perfomance issues, random disappearing graphics and other bugs that have been sorted by CCP in the last two months, never mind every fiz before that.

Dunno why I bothered answering to that.

Still finding this amusing, FYI. Very Happy

Baske
THE PAROXYSM
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:36:00 - [1716]
 

Edited by: Baske on 12/12/2008 20:39:25
Originally by: Annaphera
Originally by: xaja

Oh god, CCP....

first: by all accounts, this was petitioned much earlier than you claim; years ago - right after moonmining was introduced to the game!

So now, finally you make a big stink about it? Icelandic sleepy heads! Is it the cold up there? Have you run out of your special antifreeze?
Sheesh...you've got the word of a single individual that was banned against that of CCP. A vengeful cheater's word vs. that of a corp with a history of bungled customer service. Why are you automatically assuming the cheater is the more honest? You think he's got no reason to lie...a lot? Thus far, the market isn't backing him up, nor does the level of action taken by CCP. I guess we'll see in the long run, but I'm not assuming the exploiter is honest.


But you assume that CCP (who have history of ingame cheating too, you know) are honest?

To me the score is even. Though the above cheater isn't the only one pointing at this as being a very old issue.

If you don't trust cheaters, you should not trust CCP, or you are a violating your own rules of who to trust.

Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:39:00 - [1717]
 

If you don't believe that this was going on for years, here's a suggestion of how to prove it with complete transparency:

Pick a random backup from the last 4 years and restore it on SiSi. Let the players check Moons for suspicious POS setups - There are very specific configurations which anyone in a Covert can detect. Set up a Thread where found exploiters can be published, with SS and locations. Then reset the server every downtime back to the same point for a week, so others can see for themselves.

CCP will have found all the expoiters for free. The PlayerBase will have its pound of flesh.

Annaphera
Minmatar
United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:45:00 - [1718]
 

Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: Annaphera

2) Please prove a link between this exploit and the introduction of "alchemy", and it better be good considering "alchemy" was released a while ago and BEFORE the exploit was identified. Unless you can prove the above, accusing CCP of making you learn alchemy to fix anything is just babble.


Quote:
The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process.


Yes... CCP is telling us to us alchemy to fix the problem.

I don't expect anything from CCP. It's been quite obvious over the years they won't do a damn thing to help the main player base. All their bugs, exploits, and bad decisions over the years and NOT ONE fix to benefit those that stand by this game and play as it is intended.

You can sit there and call it all tin foil hatery... but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this company has failed massively on massive scales time after time... again and again.

I'm not out seeking a perfect game... there's bound to be bugs... but players should not be penalized from the exploits of others. CCP will not take accountability, and that is what makes them one of the worst gaming companies ever.
The difference is, they are NOT, as you obliquely suggested earlier (any many others have as well), saying that alchemy was put in to deal with the aftereffects of this exploit. If you weren't trying to insinuate that, I apologize, but others have been, so the point is valid.

Now, I'd like to know exactly how you are losing so big based on the effects of this exploit. If you are a materials producer, you get a temporary boost in profit margin. If you are a T2 ship/module builder, you can pass your increased costs down the line until others learn alchemy. If you are burning through a lot of T2 goods, you could drop back to t1 for a while, or not risk quite so many t2's. The last case is the only one that involves a bit of loss, but it isn't that much, and it assumes that the exploit was in wide and long-term use, exactly as the banned person claimed. So far, the evidence isn't there; I just bought some t2 ship mods for the lowest price I ever have, and a quick look at the market prices on some common T2 ships shows only a relatively small spike in the price of some of the larger ones (Hulk, to name one). The materials involved seem to be rising in price, but also seeing many times the usual demand as speculators and hoarders swarm in. I'm not seeing the signs of a big supply drop, here. Wait a bit and see, rather than claiming huge losses while things are still in chaos from the announcement.

Pithecanthropus
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:49:00 - [1719]
 

Originally by: Doctor Penguin
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
I don't expect anything from CCP. It's been quite obvious over the years they won't do a damn thing to help the main player base. All their bugs, exploits, and bad decisions over the years and NOT ONE fix to benefit those that stand by this game and play as it is intended.


Obviously nobody suffered from the perfomance issues, random disappearing graphics and other bugs that have been sorted by CCP in the last two months, never mind every fiz before that.

Dunno why I bothered answering to that.

Still finding this amusing, FYI. Very Happy


There's a HUGE difference between performance issues where EVERYONE has an equal suffering and then an equal relief when fixed... compared to exploits that cause effects on the market that are "considerable and far reaching". Performance and the game's economy? ... comparing apples and oranges my friend.

Atlas Oracle
Minmatar
Colossus Enterprises
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:50:00 - [1720]
 

the lack of CCP posts as this goes on is a joke.
CCP is becoming a joke.

CCP, you need to communicate, or you'll be seen for what you really are.

Vaarmoth Malinigvious
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:51:00 - [1721]
 

Checking in on page 58.

So, we guilty yet?

Annaphera
Minmatar
United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:55:00 - [1722]
 

Originally by: Baske
Edited by: Baske on 12/12/2008 20:39:25
Originally by: Annaphera
Originally by: xaja

Oh god, CCP....

first: by all accounts, this was petitioned much earlier than you claim; years ago - right after moonmining was introduced to the game!

So now, finally you make a big stink about it? Icelandic sleepy heads! Is it the cold up there? Have you run out of your special antifreeze?
Sheesh...you've got the word of a single individual that was banned against that of CCP. A vengeful cheater's word vs. that of a corp with a history of bungled customer service. Why are you automatically assuming the cheater is the more honest? You think he's got no reason to lie...a lot? Thus far, the market isn't backing him up, nor does the level of action taken by CCP. I guess we'll see in the long run, but I'm not assuming the exploiter is honest.


But you assume that CCP (who have history of ingame cheating too, you know) are honest?

To me the score is even. Though the above cheater isn't the only one pointing at this as being a very old issue.

If you don't trust cheaters, you should not trust CCP, or you are a violating your own rules of who to trust.
Everyone else claiming that the exploit is that old that I've seen is doing so based on the word of that poster. I've seen one Goon claiming it independently, but he was also trying to pin everything on BoB in the same breath, so that looks more like opportunistic propaganda than truth. Quite frankly, I'm more inclined to trust the one that has more to lose if caught in a lie, which is CCP, until more details are published or indirect evidence makes itself known. Thus far, the indirect evidence (mostly market reaction) is pointing to a small exploit and a lot of hype. Likewise, if this was a big thing that CCP has been deliberately ignoring, why was it not almost as well known as ghost training? You'd think this would be causing a lot less outrage over the fact that it was done at all, and more over it being corrected, just like what happened with ghost training.

Ikathis sihtaki
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:57:00 - [1723]
 

I remember, back in the day, a buddy of mine and I are out probing moons and we stumble upon this POS, that really just didn't look right, the setup. We were doing reactions, the proper way mind you, and this reaction POS just didn't look right. We just wrote it off as some noob who didn't know what he was doing. Guess we were the noobs, not knowing what they were doing.

Then about a year later, I remember always hauling reactions out of a corps POS, but never hauling anything to it, aside from fuel, but the moon didn't produce what they were reacting. It also was setup in this odd way. Guess I am happy I am so blissfully ignorant!!!

TBH I think this points out, how fubar the whole t2 process is. Without this sploit, the T2 market would be rather weak through the years. By weak, I am saying the avg joe would still be paying astronomical prices for anything not t1. (almost makes you think it was originally put there for a reason). Now with invention, not just BPOs bein around, think of the bottleneck this gonna make. As for alchemy, hear it isn't worth it. Dunno, don't mess with the stuff no more, usually spend most days spinning my ships in station.ugh

BAN EM AND BURN IT ALL

Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:58:00 - [1724]
 

yikes.. I haven't read all 58 so I apologize to the people who have likely already pointed this out.

We are talking trillions of isk here. As far as the idea of one alliance inflicting enough harm on another that they must withdraw to recuperate is concerned, the alliances that benefited from this exploit are invincible. Sure, you can take their space but let up for a moment and they will be right back in shiny new ships.

The exploit has been removed but I'd wager that isk remains. The damage is done and simply banning the known exploiters and fixing the bug will not make things right, not by a long shot.

CCP needs to be brutal in dealing with those who directly benefited from this exploit. Those exploit corps were operating in someones space... CCP's credibility is sitting somewhere in the negatives after their past screw ups. They need work hard to make things right this time.

Pithecanthropus
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:59:00 - [1725]
 

Originally by: Annaphera
The difference is, they are NOT, as you obliquely suggested earlier (any many others have as well), saying that alchemy was put in to deal with the aftereffects of this exploit. If you weren't trying to insinuate that, I apologize, but others have been, so the point is valid.

I never insinuated that, but it stands by itself that in either case, neither of us can say without a doubt what alchemy's true purpose was. I, however, clearly pointed out that CCP wants us to use alchemy to fix the problem.

Quote:
Now, I'd like to know exactly how you are losing so big based on the effects of this exploit.

The difference between you and I is that I see the big picture. I don't just think about what I have to do... whether it may be paying 20% more for a t2 ship or not. The fact is we've been playing with a tainted market, and now those who were in stable finances, may now have to seek new alternatives.

And let's just put out a worse case scenario... say the isk made was used to build a titan... that titan then obliterated a fleet. Those are losses directly related to the POS exploit. I'm not saying that happened, but things DID happen... to what extent? We don't know... but perhaps CCP should look into some compensation for that extent. Just an idea.

Belliana
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:00:00 - [1726]
 

Originally by: Atlas Oracle
the lack of CCP posts as this goes on is a joke.
CCP is becoming a joke.

CCP, you need to communicate, or you'll be seen for what you really are.


Whining emoragers like you have been saying this for years and every time the exact same thing happens. CCP handles the problem, ignores the stupid idiotic teenage drama on the forums, and everyone goes back to playing a GAME. Get over yourself please.

Scoop de'Woop
Emino Concepts
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:01:00 - [1727]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Destroying things that were already taken from them makes no sense at all.


Thank you for repeating what I said.

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
As long as they didn't buy it, for 1 ISK the ton, in which case it is an obvious money laundering scheme, they are innocent and should not be affected. The money they payed should vanish from the cheaters' accounts, though. It is not hard to trace all the money, all that is required is some competence.


This will work quite well. They already do things like this to track down ISK sellers. However, I never said that it was hard. My post was addressing the people that were calling for the reset of 0.0 or the removal of all of the towers in 0.0 or anything similar.

Sir Asshurt
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:01:00 - [1728]
 

I'm not sure why nobody asks the obvious question to ccp....




dear ccp!

the guys you just banned , i mean their stuff ...uhm....i can haz?


ugh


Political Prisoner
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:03:00 - [1729]
 

Originally by: Vaarmoth Malinigvious
Checking in on page 58.

So, we guilty yet?


YES ... you are guilty of being a douche bag ... Shocked



XxHey BabyxX
Gallente
THE INTERNET.
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:04:00 - [1730]
 

DOWN with CHEATERS!

DOWN WITH EVOKE!

They still have plenty of t2 blueprints and Supercapitals made out of thin air, thanks to the exploit.

They finished Evacuating to low sec with their cheated Supercapitalfleet.

Terminate all their Assets !

Scoop de'Woop
Emino Concepts
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:04:00 - [1731]
 

Originally by: Vaarmoth Malinigvious
Checking in on page 58.

So, we guilty yet?


Apparently, BoB was guilty before the thread even started. Wink

Moar BoB accusations!!

Scoop de'Woop
Emino Concepts
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:06:00 - [1732]
 

Originally by: XxHey BabyxX
They still have plenty of t2 blueprints and Supercapitals made out of thin air, thanks to the exploit.


No, they were not made out of thin air. T2 blueprints were seeded by research agents and supercapitals have to be built with capital materials. You should probably ease up on the sensational hysteria for a bit.

Mes Devour
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:06:00 - [1733]
 

Damnit! Who took a diarrhea in the sandbox!?!?

XxHey BabyxX
Gallente
THE INTERNET.
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:08:00 - [1734]
 

Originally by: Scoop de'Woop
Originally by: XxHey BabyxX
They still have plenty of t2 blueprints and Supercapitals made out of thin air, thanks to the exploit.


No, they were not made out of thin air. T2 blueprints were seeded by research agents and supercapitals have to be built with capital materials. You should probably ease up on the sensational hysteria for a bit.


They made pleanty of moon materials out of thin air which can be sold for isk.

You know with Isk you can buy stuff like T2 blueprints and capital material.

Scoop de'Woop
Emino Concepts
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:11:00 - [1735]
 

Originally by: XxHey BabyxX
Originally by: Scoop de'Woop
Originally by: XxHey BabyxX
They still have plenty of t2 blueprints and Supercapitals made out of thin air, thanks to the exploit.


No, they were not made out of thin air. T2 blueprints were seeded by research agents and supercapitals have to be built with capital materials. You should probably ease up on the sensational hysteria for a bit.


They made pleanty of moon materials out of thin air which can be sold for isk.

You know with Isk you can buy stuff like T2 blueprints and capital material.


Then you should have said that as it is more accurate according to game mechanics.

Avaleric
Amarr
SC Special Circumstances
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:12:00 - [1736]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Avaleric


"One should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity."

- Vinnie Jones, Snatch


Those who need to quote others are without ideas themselves.

I have to admit your quote fits you well, though. Self-knowledge is enlightening.


"One should never underest..." well, you know the rest...

Dr smartypants
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:13:00 - [1737]
 

Does this mean that eve has hit peak-moon-mins? Is the golden era of cheep T2 ships at an end? Is Capital society at an end? Will we all need to fly low ferrogel responsible T1 hybrids and learn to isk farm for our sustenance? Will All Gore's alchemy trading scheme save us in time?

XxHey BabyxX
Gallente
THE INTERNET.
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:17:00 - [1738]
 

Edited by: XxHey BabyxX on 12/12/2008 21:17:51
Originally by: Scoop de'Woop
Originally by: XxHey BabyxX
Originally by: Scoop de'Woop
Originally by: XxHey BabyxX
They still have plenty of t2 blueprints and Supercapitals made out of thin air, thanks to the exploit.


No, they were not made out of thin air. T2 blueprints were seeded by research agents and supercapitals have to be built with capital materials. You should probably ease up on the sensational hysteria for a bit.


They made pleanty of moon materials out of thin air which can be sold for isk.

You know with Isk you can buy stuff like T2 blueprints and capital material.


Then you should have said that as it is more accurate according to game mechanics.


Well now you know.

They started as G Alliance while they first began to exploit that bug, made trillions (most in Moonmaterial asset) over the course of 3 years, while buying T2 blueprints and Supercapitals and GTC for all their Chars, thanks to the exploited Moonmaterial money they got.


Terminate every Asset from their main Corp AMT. (former ASW, Moontempler, confirmed cheaters)!

DOWN WITH CHEATER!
DOWN WITH EVOKE!

PuRuSkA
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:21:00 - [1739]
 

I read lot of the post in this thread since yesterday

I must say at first when i read it i thought it was an exploit after quantum rise cause of the suddent price fall in adv moon material that was not supported from what alchemy actualy do, which is not pressuring the price down actualy cause it is not competitive to make it.

maybe price went down cause of the fear of it, as the market often react on fear, and now price go up on another fear reaction
i would not be surprise there is alot of propaganda and some people just getting your isk out with the new moon material price raise.
Reaction of fear would be greater if you think that was going on since 4 years instead of 4 weeks, well i don't know the truth, i am waiting it while reading rumor.

i am waiting CCP news asap :)

puruska

Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:28:00 - [1740]
 

so much tears, i love it. i'm printing the angriest ones and putting them up on my wall

confirming that this exploit was around since before POSes even existed, and that it was reported before the bug reporting system was in place. also, that people made googles of money and used it to be better than you.

yes, objectively better human beings than you. i know, it sounds unfair, but it's true.

in fact, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has more isk than you had used this exploit. where were you? we totally cc'ed you on the eve-mail.

everyone, cry moar plox Laughing


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