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Radek Zane
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.12.04 20:35:00 - [1]
 

Hello, I couldn't find any info on this particular issue, so I thought I'd ask here.

I started off several days ago as a Gallente Intaki Industy guy. I trained up to Industrial 1 so I could get a bigger cargo hold in the Iteron. I realize that there was a 20% bonus to mining yield on the Navitas, but collecting ore seems impossibly slow on the Iteron. The question is, do I need to train up to a bigger mining laser (Miner 1) than I had with my Navitas frigate to get better performance?

Should I ditch the whole Iteron/Industrial plan and go with something else? I'm almost done with Industrial 3, so I could get an Iteron III and fit two mining lasers on it. Is that a good next step?

Is the mining barge the next step in the progression for mining ships? It looks like over 9 days of training to get to this point, so I wanted advice before I went down that path.

This is my first trades-based character, so I'm learning by doing. I don't have any idea about long range goals. To me, anything outside of two weeks is a long range goal (I'm sure that's funny to all you vets Very Happy ) As a general guideline, I'm hoping to mine the materials, then get some BPOs and mess with making and selling stuff (Gallente and Minmatar based items at the start.)


Thanks for any help.

Dyaven
Nexus.6
The Jagged Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.04 20:42:00 - [2]
 

Industrials are not meant for mining. Industrials are to haul cargo. That cargo could be ore that you've mined in your frigate. A common tactic is to jettison your ore when your cargohold is full and fill the jettisoned can, then haul all it to the station at once with your industrial. Be weary that the can will disappear in 2 hours.

Vistrix Ferocia
Libertarian Dynamics inc.
Posted - 2008.12.04 20:43:00 - [3]
 

You can only fit 1 mining laser to any Iteron, including the mk 3.

Mining in any Iteron is EXTREMELY slow. Its only useful if you are going to be doing something else while you mine. Because of its huge cargo size, not much effort is needed.

Its an industrial ship, its not designed for mining.

Strom Nekth
Posted - 2008.12.04 22:57:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Strom Nekth on 04/12/2008 23:42:06
Originally by: Radek Zane

I started off several days ago as a Gallente Intaki Industy guy. I trained up to Industrial 1 so I could get a bigger cargo hold in the Iteron. I realize that there was a 20% bonus to mining yield on the Navitas, but collecting ore seems impossibly slow on the Iteron. The question is, do I need to train up to a bigger mining laser (Miner 1) than I had with my Navitas frigate to get better performance?

There are actually several variants of the Miner I that drop from rats (or you can get from the market) that you can use instead. Typically these have the same skill requirements as a Miner I but give you more cubic meters of ore/minute. So check into things like Cu Vapor Particle Bore Stream I's for a significant boost to your base mining yield.

You can also use mining drones to increase your yield/minute. (Not in an Iteron I though, as they have no drone bay.)

Quote:
Is the mining barge the next step in the progression for mining ships? It looks like over 9 days of training to get to this point, so I wanted advice before I went down that path.

There are two ship upgrade paths - to mining barges and to cruisers (I went cruisers because I wanted to do other things too). The former eventually leads to the best mining vessels but the latter allows you to train for things that are useful outside of mining.

There are also numerous skills that increase your mining yield, both for mining lasers and for mining drones. The drone mining skills, in particular, frequently help your combat drone abilities too.

Quote:

Should I ditch the whole Iteron/Industrial plan and go with something else? I'm almost done with Industrial 3, so I could get an Iteron III and fit two mining lasers on it. Is that a good next step?

I jet can mine with my cruiser and then switch to an iteron to haul the ore to a station. But then I tend to find my belts with exploration so there's a reduced chance of ore thieves.

Quote:

This is my first trades-based character, so I'm learning by doing. I don't have any idea about long range goals. To me, anything outside of two weeks is a long range goal (I'm sure that's funny to all you vets Very Happy ) As a general guideline, I'm hoping to mine the materials, then get some BPOs and mess with making and selling stuff (Gallente and Minmatar based items at the start.)


You might want to investigate making some stuff sooner rather than later. There's only a very small advantage to mining your own materials rather than buying them so why not find out now if you like making stuff. If not then maybe you shouldn't go down the pure mining rout unless you're really enjoying that for its own sake.

Lilkal
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2008.12.04 23:14:00 - [5]
 

Read this.

The ultimate mining guide. Written by a hell of a guy too. Smile

Tandin
The Knights Templar
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.12.04 23:47:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Strom Nekth

Quote:
Is the mining barge the next step in the progression for mining ships? It looks like over 9 days of training to get to this point, so I wanted advice before I went down that path.

There are two ship upgrade paths - to mining barges and to cruisers (I went cruisers because I wanted to do other things too). The former eventually leads to the best mining vessels but the latter allows you to train for things that are useful outside of mining.



It should also be noted that a battleship with 8 miner 2's in the highs and mining laser upgrade 2's in the lows can actually outmine most of the dedicated mining ships. This also requires decent training but you gain the ability to fly battleships in the process (the guns and tanking need to be trained also if you plan to fly it for anything other than mining).

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2008.12.05 02:15:00 - [7]
 

First off - read that mining guide.

Next, there are 3 ways to use that Industrial in a Mining Operation.

1) Mine with a mining ship (a mining frigate, mining barge or whatever), jettison the ore into a jet can (as described above), then when you're tired of doing it, go back to your base, get your industrial and come back to the jet can (bookmarking it is a good idea) fill the hold of your Industrial and then take the ore back to your base. Once you've emptied the jet can, go back and get your miner and create another one (they only last 2 hours, so if you don't get your ore out of it in two hours it will go poof and take your ore with it off to the bit bucket). Now be warned - that other players will come along and steal the ore from your can, just hoping you will shoot at them for doing it so they can blow you up. That is the problem with jet can mining. It is a mistake to jet can mine in a system with very many people in it. Look at your map and set the filters to Pilots in Space and go to a quiet system to do this. Also, if you can mine at off peak hours for Europe and the USA that improves your chances. Just look at the number of players when you log in.

2) Train Mining to Level IV and get a Miner II. That has an output of about 60 units per cycle as opposed to the other's 40 somethings. Then you can find a big asteroid somewhere and start to work in it while you watch TV. Check every now and again to see if you've depleted the asteroid or filled your hold. Don't do this in .8 space or below as the rats will get you. There are no rats in .9 and 1.0 space so you can just sit there happily mining away while you do something else. Now here - one of the other things you can do - is to use a Second Account to run missions or something while your guy in the industrial is mining away.

3) Take that second account - say he's a combat guy - and put him in the industrial. Have your Industry Character in a mining vessel. Then have them team mine. Create a book mark by going to your people and places /places tab and click on create book mark down at the bottom of the page. Drag that new bookmark into your hold. If you hold down shift it will copy it and you won't have to create a new one each time (if you lose the old one). Then right click on that book mark and select jettison. This creates a jet can which the book mark will keep open. Mine with your miner until it's hold has some ore in it, then drag that ore to the jet can. Then alt-tab if you are running full screen or go to the other window if you have two windows open and make the guy in the Industrial the foreground application. He should be within 1500 meters of the jet can. From there, he can drag the ore into his hold but leave the bookmark behind to keep the can open. This is the best way to mine. If you can't create another account, you can do this with another player - if you trust them. When the industrial is full, it takes the ore back to the base - then comes back for another load. Here, since you never have the ore in the jet can for more than a few seconds you avoid a lot of the dangers of jet can mining. You can also put a miner on the Industrial. Alternatively, you can put a salvager and a tractor beam on your industrial, and mine in .5 to .8 space. This has better ore and if you have combat drones in your mining ship they can kill the rats and the industrial can salvage them - getting you two sources of income. If you want a good Industrial Team you can have one of these guys be a miner who trains to refine your ore, while the other trains as an Engineer to Make things - just be aware that the real process is Mine -> Refine -> Manufacture -> Sell, which means you need some Trading skills as well. Each step of this sequence is equally important. However, when you are just starting out - it is better to just sell your ore or minerals to make money. Only manufacture for the experience.


Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2008.12.05 02:52:00 - [8]
 

A Fourth way to use that Industrial is to Mine into Giant Secure Containers.

What you do is to go buy two sets of GSC's. Look at the market and take your industrial over to where someone is selling them cheap, then buy them one at a time until you can't fit any more in your hold - that or do math (!) A GSC takes up 3,000m3 (three thousand cubic meters) of space. Buy twice as many as will fit in your hold. Take one set back to your base you are going to mine from then go fetch the other.

You have to have the Anchoring Skill to use them. Look it up to see what you need to get this skill.

Then take one set of your GSC's out to the belt you intend to mine. This must be in .7 or below space or you cannot anchor the GSC - which means that it's just an expensive jet can ... which some other industrial can scoop up and steal along with your ore.

Get 5,000 meters away from anything else - or they won't anchor.

Right click on one of the GSC's and select Launch for pesonal (or whatever it says ... I forget) the other is Corporation (which you can select if you are mining with your corporate buddies).

Then once it is in space, right click on the can or it's listing in your overview and select Set Password. You must do this every single time you deploy them. In order to set the pass word - you must remember the old password from the last time you used it. So have two passwords you can remember. If you forget - take it to your hanger and repackage it. If it is your first time - just leave the old password blank.

Once the password is set then select Anchor.

At this point the can will sit there and do nothing for about a minute. Watch it. When it anchors it will do this little shaking thing - and - the lights on the can will change color. I forget now but they have two colors, red and green. Note whichever color it's lights are when you launch it - that is it's Un-Anchored color. When it changes color - that is it's Anchored Color. Once it is anchored - neither you nor anyone else can move it or access it without using that password you gave it. If you want to pick it up - you right click on it, select un-anchor and will be prompted for the password.

If the color of the lights doesn't change - you have done something wrong. If you fool around with it and can't make it work ... and have done everything I said ... then maybe I've forgotten something but I don't think so.

These can's are nearly indestructible and I believe protected by Concord - so whatever you put in them is safe.

The next step is to go get your miner. Move to within 1500 meters of a GSC and open it - you may be prompted for the password. Then start mining, dragging your ore from your miner's hold into the GSC until it is full. Then move onto to your next GSC and put ore into that. When you have filled them all - go back and get your industrial. Put the other set of GSC's in you Industrial. Then go back to your deployed GSC's and move along emptying them into the GSC's in your ship. Take the ore back to your base, get back in your miner and go fill up your deployed GSC's again.

A GSC takes up 3,000m3 of space but it holds 3,900m3 of stuff - something to do with being a Planck container ... So they are worth using even if you never deploy them just to expand your cargo capacity - just not for AFK mining. Also, put Cargo Hold Expander II's in the Industrials Lows.

Your problem with GSC's is that they are a pain in the ass to use ... see all the **** you have to do? And - they don't hold very much. A mining barge with Cargo Hold Expander II's in it can hold more ore than a GSC. So they're good for use with a mining frigate but that's about it.

All in all - they are more trouble deploying than they're worth (which is why I didn't mention them before) but they are an alternative if you want to give them a try. Most experience miners only use them to increase their industrials capacity. They're still good for that.


Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2008.12.05 03:23:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 05/12/2008 03:28:07

And ... sorry for the triple post but I ran out of space above ...


A GSC will last 30 days from the last time you accessed it. So, if you just leave them in place but come back and use them again within 30 days - they'll stay right where you put them and you won't have to go through all that aggravation of deploying them again. If you don't access it within 30 days - the GSC will go poof along with anything you happen to have left in it.


Now ... another thing people do with GSC's is to put them in safe spots. I'm not going to get into what a safe spot is in this post, except to say it is off away from everything else and a place you go to so you can hide from people who are after you. Putting a GSC in a safe spot lets you put ammunition or possibly ore in it. People who are doing things in .4 and below space sometimes do this ... but I haven't ... so I can't comment further on it.

Mostly, what people do - is one of the first three things I listed.

Of course ... all that fooling around with GSC's getting them anchored has to be done in .7 space or below ... so yes - that means there are belt rats there. So ... while you are deploying your GSC's you might want to put a gun on that industrial and/or have a good tank. This also means that you want a combat drone in your mining frigate. Which means don't use a Burst as they don't have one. If you are Minmatar, train any other factions frigate skill to level II and use theirs.

Don't use Mining Drones in .7 or below space until you get a Covetor as a Covetor will let you carry two sets of Drones. One combat and one mining. If you are in .7 space or below - carry the combat drones to kill rats. If you get your drone skills up and have 5 combat drones (either Hobgoblins for general purpose thermal damage or the type that does the best damage to the type of rats you are facing) - you have nothing to worry about from belt rats in a mining barge.



As long as I've got a couple more thousand characters of advice to give ...

Make at least two tabs for your overview. For one, take your Default Standard configuration, add Stargates to it, and Deselect Veldspar from it, then save that. For the other, take your Default Mining configuration, add Stargates to it and then save that. Then create your tabs. When you select an asteroid to mine - hit the mining tab, pick your rock, then hit the standard tab. Do NOT sit there with a bunch of rocks blocking your view of whether or not someone else has come into your belt. If you are using the Standard tab - you'll see as soon as some rats or another player show up. Be much more concerned about the other players than the rats.

If you click on their ship in the over view - you can select Look and you will see things from their ships point of view. Move your point of view around to the stern of their ship and see where they are going. If they are going for YOU and they have a combat ship instead of a miner - then you need to think about what it is you're going to be doing.

What you should do is a little complicated for this post. But if you have a jet can deployed ... if you can do it, you want the ore out of that can. If you're Jet Can Mining alone ... fill your hold with what you can but be prepared to lose the rest. If you are team mining, with a book mark in a jet can, - if he comes for you - pull the bookmark and pop the can (you should already have all the ore in the industrial), then just sit there until he goes away. Don't trash talk him. If he realizes you're alert and watching him ... he'll go pick on someone else. Once he's gone, jettison the bookmark again and go back to mining. A tip here, is to put the time you jettison the can on it as it's name. That way ... you'll have a reminder as to when you need to put out another one so it doesn't pop on you just as you put a hold full of ore into it.

Well that's more than enough for one night.

GL & Fly Safe.

Dyaven
Nexus.6
The Jagged Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.05 05:04:00 - [10]
 

Good God Toshiro, I'm sure he didn't need an entire lecture's worth of information on this. Laughing

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.12.05 06:55:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Cyprus Black on 05/12/2008 06:55:40

It always makes me laugh to see a newbie mining in an industrial ship. God he must be bored to tears. A better way to go is to use select frigates and cruisers that give bonuses to mining. Just an FYI, you can have more than one mining laser operating at a time and on the same asteroid.

You can always jetcan too if you want, but it opens yourself up to griefers. You should look into anchorable password protected cans. The largest comes in 3,900 m3 and can only be deployed in 0.7 space and below.

Radek Zane
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.12.05 12:07:00 - [12]
 

Wow, thanks for all the detailed replies! I did read the mining guide, but this post has really fleshed out more of the in-game practical advice than what was contained in the guide.

I knew something didn't feel right about the Iteron, and yes, I wanted to avoid jetcan mining so it seemed like a good idea Very Happy, curse my newbness. Looking forward, I'm thinking that moving up to battlecruiser (just under 15 days in evemon) might be a better choice from a missioning standpoint than a miner. I could barely fund my advanced skill books on my combat guy (thank goodness for salvage), so I imagine even more difficulty getting started with this one.

This might be a little out of the scope of this topic, but I did buy a BPO for small hybrid ammo (uranium, I think.) I did a couple of Time Efficiency runs on it, since the Material Research queues are insanely long everywhere I looked. Ok, I feel a question stream coming, look out:

  • Are multiple week material efficiency research waits like that everywhere, or am I just in a busy region of Gallente space?
  • Is there a skill or other way to find open ME queues outside of your current constellation?
  • Also, with the cost of BPOs, say for a shiny new ship with a production run of 20, what is generally done with them to make them pay off? Do you just make the number of ships allowed, or do you copy them to make them stretch out further?
  • Does copying a BPO reduce it's number of production runs?


Ok, that's enough to make my head spin for now. Thanks so much everyone for the good advice!

Estel Arador
Posted - 2008.12.05 12:30:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Radek Zane
Are multiple week material efficiency research waits like that everywhere, or am I just in a busy region of Gallente space?

It's like that everywhere, though queues in Low Security space are shorter than in High Security. There's probably also some variation between regions.

Originally by: Radek Zane
Is there a skill or other way to find open ME queues outside of your current constellation?

You can view all queues in your region; there is no way to check the queues in other regions (except by moving there or getting another character there).


Originally by: Radek Zane
Also, with the cost of BPOs, say for a shiny new ship with a production run of 20, what is generally done with them to make them pay off? Do you just make the number of ships allowed, or do you copy them to make them stretch out further?

You produce stuff to make them pay off, or you copy them; it depends on what's more profitable in your specific case. There are some BPOs where the copy time is lower than the production time, in which case it is always more profitable to first copy them and then produce from the copies.


Originally by: Radek Zane
Does copying a BPO reduce it's number of production runs?

No. Production runs are the maximum number of runs you can do in one job; you can produce more from the same BPO (unlimited even), but you will have to do it in subsequent jobs.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2008.12.05 14:13:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 05/12/2008 14:13:46
Originally by: Dyaven
Good God Toshiro, I'm sure he didn't need an entire lecture's worth of information on this. Laughing


Very Happy


highonpop
Gallente
Sucker Punch Industries
Posted - 2008.12.05 15:57:00 - [15]
 

Zane you do not need a battlecruiser to do level 1 missions. go get a frigate. you are gallente, as am i, and i like using the Tristan for mission running. fit with 2 launchers, turret, and salvage.

besides the chances of you having the money to buy a battelcruiser being a noob, are very slim.

Eschiava Q
Minmatar
Soul of De
Stainless.
Posted - 2008.12.05 19:27:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Dyaven
Industrials are not meant for mining. Industrials are to haul cargo. That cargo could be ore that you've mined in your frigate. A common tactic is to jettison your ore when your cargohold is full and fill the jettisoned can, then haul all it to the station at once with your industrial. Be weary that the can will disappear in 2 hours.

Two hours you say? Not if it's in a belt I patrol regularly! YARRRR!!

Radek Zane
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.12.07 04:04:00 - [17]
 

Thanks everyone for the awesome replies! I feel less noobish now Very Happy


 

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