open All Channels
seplocked Science and Industry
blankseplocked I want to be an industrial tycoon
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

Nemo Leroux
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:43:00 - [1]
 

I am just starting out. Can someone give me a basic skill path to becoming an industrial mogul? Do i need to train research skills to make BPCs more efficient?

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:58:00 - [2]
 

Industy V
Production Efficiency V
Mass Production V
Advanced Mass Production IV

And whatever science skills make you research gooderer, although your best bet is to just buy some pre-researched cheap T1 BPOs and move from there.

Nemo Leroux
Posted - 2008.11.18 00:15:00 - [3]
 

Bet. Sounds good. Hopefully you'll be calling me "Big Daddy Moneybucks" soon.
I am working on Production Efficiency 4 right now. A long way to go before Advanced Mass Production 4. Why not 5? Too long with no benefits?


Xonox Galatorg
Gallente
Pulsar Combat Supplies
Alternative Realities
Posted - 2008.11.18 01:16:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Xonox Galatorg on 18/11/2008 01:16:29
The skills mentioned above are great for mass production and being a good manufacturer. Industry runs pretty deep. If you are looking to be completely into the industry you are also going to want to look at mining to provide your resources for building, research to improve your BPOs for production, research to do T2 with copy and invention, POS(player owned starbase) so you can have available research slots, POS to do reactions to make composite/advanced materials and then turn those into T2 components.

One of the primary things you will absolutely want to understand is how the market works and how to determine how much to build. You need to be able to find out how much it costs you to build something so you can determine what the best thing to build right now is. Build cost depends on what you value the minerals at. If you get the minerals for free from mining or half price from a friend, that part of the build cost does not equal 0 (or half for that matter). Those minerals have value no matter how much you buy them for. You need to value the minerals based on what your market says they are worth because you can always just sell them for that value. How much you paid for them goes into your profit calculations (again, minerals have value even if you mine them for "free")

You aren't going to be able to do all this by yourself without going insane trying to keep up with it all. Well maybe you can, but it's certainly a lot of work. When you get the isk you probably won't be mining up all the minerals yourself. You'll want to find a supply of minerals. You just won't have the time to do it all and trying to mine up all the minerals yourself will be impossible once you really get the hang of manufacturing.

I could probably write a book trying to cover everything industry just because there's so much that can be covered. Keep going down the route you are currently going and while waiting for training read some of the guides available and read the forums here. There is lots of good info that comes up on these forums. Look at the resource thread (sticky at the top of this section of the forums) and read some of the links that sound relevant to what you want to do.

HTH

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.11.18 01:37:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Xonox Galatorg
If you get the minerals for free from mining or half price from a friend, that part of the build cost does not equal 0 (or half for that matter). Those minerals have value no matter how much you buy them for. You need to value the minerals based on what your market says they are worth because you can always just sell them for that value. How much you paid for them goes into your profit calculations (again, minerals have value even if you mine them for "free")



Can we put this on every BPO, burn it into every billboard, paint onto every station, every roid, every single available space in game?

And just in addition to that advice, remember also OP that your time is not free. Your build slots have a real isk value, so remember to evaluate which products you are attempting to churn out.

For instance, why bother cooking a bunch of battleships when you can turn out four times as many cruisers and make twice the amount?

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2008.11.18 01:51:00 - [6]
 

Quote:

And just in addition to that advice, remember also OP that your time is not free. Your build slots have a real isk value, so remember to evaluate which products you are attempting to churn out.


This. There is a massive difference between:

Something you build for 10 million ISK, sell for 11 million and takes a day to produce (1 million isk profit, 659 isk per minute)

And

Something you build for 6000 ISK, sell for 10,000 ISK and takes 2 minutes to build (4000 ISK profit, 2000 ISK per minute)

A lot of people just look at the gross output of the profit (1 million isk versus 4000 isk) and just roll with the one with the larger figure.

Clarence X
Quantum LLC
Posted - 2008.11.18 04:08:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Xonox Galatorg
You need to value the minerals based on what your market says they are worth because you can always just sell them for that value.



This is a sentiment often spouted by most of the industrial geniuses that frequent this forum that might seem valid and true, but doesn't hold up to a certain scrutiny. The market price for any given mineral or production component does not take into account how much inventory remains unsold in the hands of producers, builders or would-be sellers. If all (or even a significant portion) tried to cash out at the same time, there is no way that EVERYONE would receive the number that "the market says they are worth".



Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2008.11.18 04:15:00 - [8]
 

Quote:

This is a sentiment often spouted by most of the industrial geniuses that frequent this forum that might seem valid and true, but doesn't hold up to a certain scrutiny. The market price for any given mineral or production component does not take into account how much inventory remains unsold in the hands of producers, builders or would-be sellers. If all (or even a significant portion) tried to cash out at the same time, there is no way that EVERYONE would receive the number that "the market says they are worth".



I think what he's trying to say though is that "Because I mine these minerals myself, they are free" is complete crap.

Understandably you have to take into account standard market flow, supply and demand and all that jazz before making a decision to sell, or just retain for later.

Clarence X
Quantum LLC
Posted - 2008.11.18 05:12:00 - [9]
 

Agreed. I am trying to point out that it isn't quite so easy to put a number on the value of your self-produced materials as some make it seem. The first part of the statement holds true even to my point, find a price for your self-produced items BASED on the market prices, which does not necessarily mean they have to EQUAL the market prices. The last part of the statement is what I was really attacking as a very presumptuous generalization that is particularly irresponsible considering the word "always".

Originally by: Xonox Galatorg
You need to value the minerals based on what your market says they are worth because you can always just sell them for that value.




Bartom Dekkar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
Posted - 2008.11.18 05:13:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Clarence X
Originally by: Xonox Galatorg
You need to value the minerals based on what your market says they are worth because you can always just sell them for that value.



This is a sentiment often spouted by most of the industrial geniuses that frequent this forum that might seem valid and true, but doesn't hold up to a certain scrutiny. The market price for any given mineral or production component does not take into account how much inventory remains unsold in the hands of producers, builders or would-be sellers. If all (or even a significant portion) tried to cash out at the same time, there is no way that EVERYONE would receive the number that "the market says they are worth".





True, but if you have 10M Trit, say, and there are market orders for more than 10M above 3.25 in your local area, then you could sell them for that right now, so that is the most reasonable way to value them. Of course, if you have 30B units of trit, the calculation is more complicated.

Nemo Leroux
Posted - 2008.11.18 05:21:00 - [11]
 

Wowo! Great advice. Thank you.

Henry Fredyericus
Gallente
H.F. Enterprises
Interstellar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2008.11.18 10:01:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Nemo Leroux
Wowo! Great advice. Thank you.


And now come and join with H.F. Enterprises corp to put your new knowledge into work Very Happy

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.11.18 13:34:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Bartom Dekkar

True, but if you have 10M Trit, say, and there are market orders for more than 10M above 3.25 in your local area, then you could sell them for that right now, so that is the most reasonable way to value them. Of course, if you have 30B units of trit, the calculation is more complicated.


Sorta. We'll give a scenario here.

Say you have 100m trit (approx amount for a freighter for instance)
That you purchased at around 3 per unit.
And knowing the build time on a freighter is approx 14 or so days
You take a look at market orders and see the volume for trit is close to half a billion moved in a week, averaging around 3.6
Your final build cost should assume your trit at 3.6, since realistically you could easily move your entire production mats before the output of your build
Switch that amount to using cruisers, or mods, or BCs though and the analysis changes

Being a successful industrialist is 3 parts trader, 1 part logistical manager.

Wadaya
Trailerpark Industries
Posted - 2008.11.18 14:48:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Wadaya on 18/11/2008 14:54:04
I'd like to point out, as even a low volume manufacturer, having mining skills is not necessary. Even if you are just making ammo, you will use up more than you can mine in a day. Mining as a source of income is fine. Mining for minerals to build ships and mods, no way. As people who have posted above me have said, Time is money.

Whether you mine for the minerals, or you buy them off the market;These minerals have the same value.
I'd rather spend 30 mins in a freighter and haul 90 mil units of trit, than spend 3 days in a hulk humping veldspar.

Recommneded Skills:

Industry 5 (cuts down on manufacturing time)
Adv Mass Production 4 (this will give you 10 factory slots)
Metallurgy 5 (reduce ME research time)
Science 5 (reduce copy time)
Research 5 (reduce PE time)
Adv Lab Operation 4 (10 research slots)
Supply Chain Mgmt (remote factory)
Scientific Networking (remote research)
Retail 4 (this will give you 32+5+(4*Trade level) market slots


Wad


Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
Posted - 2008.11.18 18:08:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Wadaya
Edited by: Wadaya on 18/11/2008 14:54:04
I'd like to point out, as even a low volume manufacturer, having mining skills is not necessary. Even if you are just making ammo, you will use up more than you can mine in a day. Mining as a source of income is fine. Mining for minerals to build ships and mods, no way. As people who have posted above me have said, Time is money.



Vertical Integration. It does not often happen, as this fellow said. You'll be using buy orders for most of your minerals. Those buys do not necessarily have to be for the minerals themselves, though. . .

Remember, your time has value.

Ged Satti
Satti Research and Development
Gunboat Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.11.18 19:04:00 - [16]
 

I'd also like to suggest in your spare time train up your refining skills and maybe run some missions for a corp to get your standings up with them. That way instead of buying straight minerals you can buy ore and refine it yourself for less isk per unit. This should not be a high priority however, as the time spent running missions to get your standing up high enough to get that 0% tax rate will be pretty huge. Also if you're going for metallurgy 5 you might as well get scrap metal processing, and then with a keen eye on the market you can find modules you can reprocess for minerals. These techniques might not save you lots of isk in the short term, but even if you can get 10% of your minerals at 30% off it's a savings.

Suncats Shadow
Caldari
PuttieTat Lab Rats
Posted - 2008.11.18 20:31:00 - [17]
 

Dear Mr. Nemo

Make sure to also follow up with training up all of those wonderful skills under Trade.
They will allow for reducing costs on taxes, cost of just basic business, etc.

Since they will help with number of orders you can buy/sell too; they are good to train up.

Other than that all of the other information in regards to watching the market and the price on minerals was good advice.

Cheopis
Amarr
One Stop Mining Shop
One Stop Research
Posted - 2008.11.19 06:49:00 - [18]
 

My advice?

1) Start with Ammo. Learn what sells near you for a profit. enter the market. If successful, expand. If not, try to figure out why. I was digging through ammo today in the citadel and picked up roughly 2 million torpedos at significantly below mineral value. Then I set buy orders and hope I can attract more sellers for such "good" pricing Shocked
I also found 140k of my own heavy missiles that were mixed in with 700k of other people's heavy missiles that were below mineral value. Apparently I didn't do my own homework very well on that particular order ugh Buying stuff from yourself for below mineral value is embarrassing.


2) The skills in the original post. Add a couple. The broker relations skill to 3 or 4 the accounting skill to 3 or 4, and a smattering of other trade skills to give you some ranged selling and buying skills. You will eventually want all trade skills to 5 so you can work in a region, even if you are stuck in a station way out in BFE and wardecced.


Nemo Leroux
Posted - 2008.11.19 13:17:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Nemo Leroux on 19/11/2008 14:01:36
Thanks for all the info. I was doing some research on ammo. it looks like it could be profitable.

Now I have another question. I moved to and X-Sense station before I found out that you can not really mission your way to better standing with them because they are a Jove subsidiary. So now I have to haul all my ores and stuff back to another system. Any suggestions. it took my alt using an Iteron 4 (19k/m3 cargo)((I know I need to do the 16 days of training to get the Iteron 5!!!)) 2 days to move all the ores and BPCs and such to the station. now I have to move again.

And let me just add you guys are really providing some excellent info. thank you. Buy cheap modules and reprocess them to get the ore; I never would have thought of that one.
Question: Should I train my Indy/scientist for freighters?


Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2008.11.19 14:27:00 - [20]
 

You could try a courier contract. Bundle it all up and offer to pay someone (probably a freighter pilot) money to haul it where you want it. Just make sure the collateral is equal to or greater than the value of the stuff you want moved.

Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.11.19 15:28:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Gavin DeVries
You could try a courier contract. Bundle it all up and offer to pay someone (probably a freighter pilot) money to haul it where you want it. Just make sure the collateral is equal to or greater than the value of the stuff you want moved.


This.

Freighter pilots like me will scoop up your stuff and deposit it at your destination for a fee. Look at the courier contracts in your area for pricing, make sure you collateral is ample to cover a loss/theft. Whenever I have to do a haul for my own operation I always look for any courier contracts I can knock off at the same time.

Chssmius
legio immortalorum
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2008.11.19 16:42:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Chssmius on 19/11/2008 16:41:56
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Gavin DeVries
You could try a courier contract. Bundle it all up and offer to pay someone (probably a freighter pilot) money to haul it where you want it. Just make sure the collateral is equal to or greater than the value of the stuff you want moved.


This.

Freighter pilots like me will scoop up your stuff and deposit it at your destination for a fee. Look at the courier contracts in your area for pricing, make sure you collateral is ample to cover a loss/theft. Whenever I have to do a haul for my own operation I always look for any courier contracts I can knock off at the same time.


Very sound advice. When you start to get serious about production (even keeping 4 production slots going for ammo), you will quickly exceed the capacity of industrials to haul minerals quickly and efficiently.

Nemo Leroux
Posted - 2008.11.19 18:54:00 - [23]
 

Bet. I'll ditch the freighter idea for right now, and concentrate on production and trade skills.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.11.19 19:52:00 - [24]
 

It has been said, but I'll say it again.

First: Trade skills trade skills trade skills.

Once you start producing, you'll run into the problems of not having enough orders to keep enough mineral buys up.

Second: Connections.
You'll want to hire people to get you standings so you can cut down on refining waste and brokers fees. The Connections skill will give a boost to that number.

Shadow's Caress
Lone Sword Production
Posted - 2008.11.20 16:59:00 - [25]
 

If you are ever interested in capital production, here's a tip.

Profits on capital production are based on ownership of BPOs. If you build from a set of BPOs, you can make some profit on a capital ship. If you buy BPCs and build it instead, you end up making the capital ship for almost exactly what it is selling for on the markets. So, if you own a capital BPO or component BPO, you can make money either by making and selling copies, or by actually building the ships/components. Building makes money faster than copying, but either way you earn money just by owning the BPOs and keeping them active.

Etara Silverblade
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.11.20 17:23:00 - [26]
 

To me the worst part of manufacturing is waiting for the stuff to sell on the market. I usually sit on a few hundred million isk in inventory because prices aren't where I want them to be or I just don't feel like playing then 0.01 isk game trying to sell hi volume products.

I wish there were some distributors or something to sell the stuff but most of the people you try to sell your manufactured stuff to try to get it for way below market value so you end up putting it on the market and have to babysit it so that it sells.

Also, if I can suggest something, start making things you use. For me that has been the greatest source of income since I don't have to buy ammo, ships, drones unless it's one I don't have a BPO for and then I go out and get one, research it, and then I can sell the remainder of what I can't use.

Nick Domani
Posted - 2008.11.21 04:25:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Nemo Leroux
I am just starting out. Can someone give me a basic skill path to becoming an industrial mogul? Do i need to train research skills to make BPCs more efficient?


I didn't see anyone mention it, but check out the certification planner for industrial certs. Some things they require are a bit excessive for the elite levels, or even the improved ones, but you can use them as a starting point and adjust your skill plan however you want from there.

Nemo Leroux
Posted - 2008.11.21 13:08:00 - [28]
 

Good call Nick. I have been reading up on certificates as a training tool.

Nemo Leroux
Posted - 2009.01.14 20:58:00 - [29]
 

Just as an update I've been doing some manufacturing. Mostly focusing on ammo right now. I have a pretty good blueprint for a Vexor and a PBC for 5 Domi's, but getting the resources for it si a serious pain.

So how do you all go about acquiring large amount of minerals in sufficient quantity for mass production?

Nemo Leroux
Posted - 2009.01.15 01:08:00 - [30]
 

First: Trade skills trade skills trade skills.

Once you start producing, you'll run into the problems of not having enough orders to keep enough mineral buys up.



Ran into this the other day.

Working on Trade skills now.


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only