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Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.11.15 14:41:00 - [1]
 

First a note, Shanzem probably allready knows where this is going, we bounced ideas about this a while back and the idea has started mutating in my brain. In this discussion hoping to pry apart the holed in a very basic idea and flesh it out if interested.

For starters, this is done with Britain's problems at the forethought of mind, and by making a new nation getting of problems that will not go away no matter what way we look at it. There is somewhat of a monopoly on land from current governments, so the idea me and a few mates had of getting a mass exodus to Orkney or Shetland then declaring independence in a way reminiscent of Israel may be a bad idea in the long run YARRRR!!

Because of said monopoly, and lack of governments liking land not being under there control anymore (note I don't support Scottish independence in any degree even though I am from Edinburgh) it becomes necessary to have ones own land being produced. Notable is Sealand and hence the pondering that something like this or an Oil rig might be converted into something habitable. Which leads me to the main chunk of my article, Seasteading. The project of creating floating structures designed not to move and just sit there anchored. Doing this in international waters flying a flag of convenience until large enough to declare independence. Thus because of the International waters clause, it has to be sitting somewhere in the blue bits of this image, which would make a larger structure needed to be more stable in oceanic waters.

The benefits of doing this would be the fact that flooding isn't an issue with floating buildings, which is a big problem at the moment due to the fact that London is slowly sinking into the Channel due to isostatic motion and of course fears of Antarctica and Greenland melting. Another would be the non existence of a legacy government fixing problems from a previous government. It also keeps open the option of starting it with a competely different way of management, personaly I like the idea of trying out a Technocracy akin to the Demarchist's in Alastair Reynolds Yellowstone/Glitterband.

Economically the main export would likely be energy, out in the ocean there would be a fair amount of energy around unused, so I suspect wind generation would generate considerably more electricity than it would out on coastal operations. This is because the speed of the wind increases the power in the fact that 10mph winds going to 15mph may double the amount of power generated. Getting this back to the mainland could be an issue, so a solution could be to purify water and via electrolysis obtain Hydrogen to be pumped or shipped in. Can be used to fuel power stations and provide clean water, I look straight at the South East of Britain with this part.

So that's a bit of a brain fart on it to get some ideas out there, what do people think of this?

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.11.15 14:46:00 - [2]
 

I am ReaperOfSly, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, Where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well.

Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.11.15 14:53:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Arianhod on 15/11/2008 15:10:21
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Rapture can become your city as well.
Heh, maybe I should have played Bioshock, just looked this up on Wikipedia, reading the article now....

Having read it, no that's not what I am after, I'm proposing it floats - do you have any idea how hard it is to make an underwater city Mad

kor anon
Amarr
FISKL GUARDS
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2008.11.15 17:58:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I am ReaperOfSly, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, Where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well.


I f*cking loled

Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.11.15 18:24:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: kor anon
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I am ReaperOfSly, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, Where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well.


I f*cking loled
To be quite honest I'm surprised noones actualy saying anything about the actual idea, given peoples disgruntled nature about Britain recently I am surprised Razz

ebonyivory
Posted - 2008.11.15 18:50:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Arianhod
Originally by: kor anon
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I am ReaperOfSly, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, Where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well.


I f*cking loled
To be quite honest I'm surprised noones actualy saying anything about the actual idea, given peoples disgruntled nature about Britain recently I am surprised Razz


id join but alas im too young :(

Jacob Mei
Gallente
Posted - 2008.11.15 19:07:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I am ReaperOfSly, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, Where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well.


Heh, yeah, we all know how well THAT turned out huh Laughing

Jacob Mei
Gallente
Posted - 2008.11.15 19:10:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Arianhod
Originally by: kor anon
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I am ReaperOfSly, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, Where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well.


I f*cking loled
To be quite honest I'm surprised noones actualy saying anything about the actual idea, given peoples disgruntled nature about Britain recently I am surprised Razz


Its not realistic. Even if one were to build on a desert island some nation somewhere would try to find a way to claim it as a colony. "Oh its close to our territorial waters so for security reasons we are occupying it."

The era of leaving one nation to start another has long since past.

kor anon
Amarr
FISKL GUARDS
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2008.11.15 19:29:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Jacob Mei


The era of leaving one nation to start another has long since past.


Didnt realise it worked like that. Rolling Eyes

Jacob Mei
Gallente
Posted - 2008.11.15 19:33:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: kor anon
Originally by: Jacob Mei


The era of leaving one nation to start another has long since past.


Didnt realise it worked like that. Rolling Eyes


What I mean is that, for an example take the American colonys. One thing that can be attributed to their independance was the sheer distance between us and Great Britian as it took months to travel between the two lands. These days where one can travel around the globe in a few hours by air and have naval vessels on the other side of the planet in a few weeks the map has shrunk considerablly to the point that distance is no longer a way to get away from government.

Rana Ash
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.11.15 19:37:00 - [11]
 

Save up and buy some old cargo ship, perhaps one of those that hauls containers around.
It's big enough to support alot of people, ofcorse keeping it in one peice will be a drain on the economy..

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2008.11.15 19:54:00 - [12]
 

Well, here is a problem with this idea.

When it comes to creating a new nation you need a couple things(or AT THE VERY LEAST one of these)fertile soil, freshwater, minerals that you can mine, forests at which you can cut, or seas at which you can fish.

In the above you would have one on a manmade island(ie a metal floating contraption) and in this your economy would fail quickly.

Now if your talking about dirt you would have to get the dirt from somewhere, and also you would need to ensure you get good topsoil(for forests and farms) and you would be in extreme poverty until your plants/trees grow which is a long period of time.... Not to mention you wont have any mining meterial to mine or freshwater to drink.

I suppose it is doable, but is it worth it? Probably not as you probably wont become a powerful nation due to the above.

Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.11.15 21:20:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
When it comes to creating a new nation you need a couple things(or AT THE VERY LEAST one of these)fertile soil, freshwater, minerals that you can mine, forests at which you can cut, or seas at which you can fish.

In the above you would have one on a manmade island(ie a metal floating contraption) and in this your economy would fail quickly.


There would be an ocean for fishing in, the foodstuffs would be grown via hydroponics and as I said I believe that energy would be the main export material in the form of either pumped/shipped hydrogen or a cable connected to a national grid. There exists the possibility of mining the oceanic crust at a later point. The internet allows hosting of data so software development and the like could be done. Easier to think of it as a small nation state as opposed to a country I suppose.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2008.11.15 21:31:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: goodby4u on 15/11/2008 21:32:07
Originally by: Arianhod
Originally by: goodby4u
When it comes to creating a new nation you need a couple things(or AT THE VERY LEAST one of these)fertile soil, freshwater, minerals that you can mine, forests at which you can cut, or seas at which you can fish.

In the above you would have one on a manmade island(ie a metal floating contraption) and in this your economy would fail quickly.


There would be an ocean for fishing in, the foodstuffs would be grown via hydroponics and as I said I believe that energy would be the main export material in the form of either pumped/shipped hydrogen or a cable connected to a national grid. There exists the possibility of mining the oceanic crust at a later point. The internet allows hosting of data so software development and the like could be done. Easier to think of it as a small nation state as opposed to a country I suppose.
Hmmm interesting, but in hydroponics you still need mineral solutions, where will you obtain these?

Since your an island and you just established yourself, the internet is something that will be something low on the list of stuffs to online, though I suppose this could eventually be an option.

The nation state idea is interesting, but I dont see the difference between a nation state and a country as a nation state is a certain form of state that derives its legitimacy from serving as a sovereign entity for a nation as a sovereign territorial unit.

ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.15 21:46:00 - [15]
 

the fake multiculturality imposed on britain by massive economic immigration and welfare state spongers, combined with a dominant liberal media making people doubt their own feelings in regards to this, and yet more petrified to say them aloud for fear of the 'freedom of speech lovers' silencing them with every tactic they claim to stand against, is going to be shattered if the economy fails and people look for someone to blame :)

**** me, could it get bad... Laughing

Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.11.15 22:05:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
Hmmm interesting, but in hydroponics you still need mineral solutions, where will you obtain these?

The nation state idea is interesting, but I dont see the difference between a nation state and a country as a nation state is a certain form of state that derives its legitimacy from serving as a sovereign entity for a nation as a sovereign territorial unit.
Ah sorry, I meant to say City-State, not Nation state, proverbial slip of the tongue there Confused
For the Hydroponics chemicals, I recall my grandfather used fish bone a lot on his allotment, hence fishy puree could be a major source of this. Another would be spending money earned from energy distribution to buy in chemicals, expand the hydroponics and maybe start exporting the vegetables themselves. This solves an issue of the energy loss through transfer as it is all used in situ, process the water and use energy on site.

Originally by: ouroboros trading
the fake multiculturality imposed on britain by massive economic immigration and welfare state spongers, combined with a dominant liberal media making people doubt their own feelings in regards to this, and yet more petrified to say them aloud for fear of the 'freedom of speech lovers' silencing them with every tactic they claim to stand against, is going to be shattered if the economy fails and people look for someone to blame :)

**** me, could it get bad... Laughing


Yea, we all know that non British cultures represent a single digit percentage of the population but to be honest, that doesn't mean much to me. To me it's things like the contact database that Whitehall wants, the DNA database it already has and the ID card scheme coming soon(tm). On top of that, the more I read into it the more real disgust I have at the growing scum in society. It would be one thing if those on benefits were doing it because they were physically incapable, were trying to find a job due to being laid off or were in training. But the fact that there is an entire underclass thats growing quickly by breeding, the state paid class that seems to exist to buy bling, tracksuits, cigarettes beer and chips.... Evil or Very Mad
Yea, I don't want to be supporting a people that takes advantage of and exploits to a hideous degree the generosity of the state... it would be different if they actualy wanted to go to work and get themselves out of the pit Mad

ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.15 22:17:00 - [17]
 

I see benefits as a cynical ploy to get an encumbent mass of labour voters tbh, same with the mass immigration, social engineering the population, who needs gerrymandering hahaha....That's why i'm voting for Conservatives this time, not because I like or trust them (oh i know what they are like ;P) but because perhaps the single best thing about a democracy is that you can get rid of the people in power and **** their plans up (ID cards and encumbent voters, etc).

Oh, and I am all for immigration don't get me wrong, and not for any contrived economic reasons, simply because people from other cultures are intresting and bring nice food :P but what we're getting isn't that at all :(










Sazkyen
Posted - 2008.11.15 23:48:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Sazkyen on 16/11/2008 00:05:41


When you have a society, you have to adopt rules. At first perhaps mostly against crimes. Now, you need to be able to hold up the law you set. It requires power. So you form law enforcement. Of course this new organization needs a leader. I'm sure I don't need to go on.

Your society could function, but only for a short period of time. It could crumble in a week, a month, heck, you may even manage to keep it up for 20 years. But then come your children. They learn of the outside world (you didn't intend to keep them in the dark, did you?) and propose changes. Etc. I could go on and ofc I could have pointed out flaws much earlier but I really didn't want to make it a one sentence post. It just cannot be done. Power tends to focus. It's just in its nature. That's the way it goes. You can isolate yourself from the world for a while. Heck, you could probably find some desolate place far away from any interests (though the danger of invasion or other influence is always there) but it just couldn't be kept up for long.

---

Toying with your idea a bit more I came to the opinion that certain forms of such societies could probably function effectively, but it would require certain circumstances.

I could imagine (for example) a scientific community that is set out to achieve a certain goal (which could be a very long term one). Assuming it's a satellite society (like, for example, a colony on Mars) it could be maintained artifically by an Earthbound government by paying close attention to events taking place inside this society and intervening should unwanted events occur.

Now, I'm not entirely sure how long could it be sustained but if the goal was important enough the Eartlings would probably grant the freedom to this society until that goal is reached.

The real problem here could be a rebellion against Earth control. It's just a thought, mind you. But I believe that after a time the Martians would declare independence.

It would require some in depth study. Perhaps someone already did this. Who knows.

The key is: there would have to exist an interest to keep this society up and running. And this interest would have to belong to a significant *outside* power. Not the society itself.

I'm really just playing with ideas here. Probably wasting both of our time Laughing


Sniper Wolf18
Gallente
A Pretty Pony Princess
General Tso's Alliance
Posted - 2008.11.16 00:04:00 - [19]
 

Found the "republic of dave" LaughingLaughing

Sazkyen
Posted - 2008.11.16 00:08:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Sniper Wolf18
Found the "republic of dave" LaughingLaughing


Damn, played it twice and forgot to go there both times. Mad


goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2008.11.16 00:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Arianhod
Originally by: goodby4u
Hmmm interesting, but in hydroponics you still need mineral solutions, where will you obtain these?

The nation state idea is interesting, but I dont see the difference between a nation state and a country as a nation state is a certain form of state that derives its legitimacy from serving as a sovereign entity for a nation as a sovereign territorial unit.

For the Hydroponics chemicals, I recall my grandfather used fish bone a lot on his allotment, hence fishy puree could be a major source of this. Another would be spending money earned from energy distribution to buy in chemicals, expand the hydroponics and maybe start exporting the vegetables themselves. This solves an issue of the energy loss through transfer as it is all used in situ, process the water and use energy on site.

Wow, never thought of that, this could actually work.

If you were to setup the nation of Arianhod what type of government would you make it though? How would your economy be based?

Personally I would probably establish a republic much like the US's current one, accept the voters would have more voice and the economy would be slightly more open and slightly less regulated... But thats just me.

Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment
Blade.
Posted - 2008.11.16 01:10:00 - [22]
 

How about you start a libertarian micro nation. Litle need for government, taxation, burocracy, etc. And let the market work please. Let liberty-minded people rent a place in your oil rig or whatever and live in whatever way they see fit. For example, you're a new citized, you start a software company, work without worrying about stupid burocracies and taxes, sell services/products to peoples of other nations, use money to import goods.

Key here is freedom. Think about it. Ya you need some kind of small Tribunal, but for starts, a constituion/law that says: You have the right to life, liberty and proprierty. No one is allowed to surpress any of those rights of any other individual unless said individual surpressed yours. That could be good enough for starts hein?

ps: 1am here, going to bed

Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.11.16 01:11:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Arianhod on 16/11/2008 01:14:16
If the nation were setup, it would likely start out small as a single small corporation that everyone works for. As it expands subcontract to other corps with taxation rules heavily benefiting expansion of the local area itself.

Goal is to have the bulk of the national purse taken care of by the by this point nationalized starter corporation, perhaps also acting as a central bank later on. Form of Government.... that's a tricky one, given the opportunity there would likely be some experimentation with alternate approaches to democracy. I don't believe the world has ever gotten to the point of having a Technocracy and I am curious as to see how that would pan out.

Truth be told the Republic the USA has works in the USA, this would be more akin to a single state, though if there were other projects to do the same thing I could see a larger alliance of them coming together like the USA or EU over time. It's probably cultural bias but I prefer the idea of a leader of the opposition, hence my favoritism towards the Westminster system.

Besides King Kirjava has a mighty nice ring to it YARRRR!!

EDIT - I note the personal liberty as a must, I believe that to avoid taxation it may be better to have the state having a portion of shares in commerce so as to tax the corporation as opposed to the individual for services. Taxation has to happen on something that floats, needs a fair bit of maintenance I reckon.

Keorythe
Caldari
Terra Rosa Militia
Posted - 2008.11.16 01:34:00 - [24]
 

You'll need huge floating cities to do this. I'm talking 20 aircraft carriers welded together and that might be a little on the small side.

Energy: Wind power is still in its learning stages. Power is not directly taken from the generator to an outlet since you get spikes and ebbs in generation. It has to be stored then regulated out. In laymen terms this requires ALOT of HUGE windmills and battery/capacitor farms. This requires alot of terriory to do so.

You need a fair amount of energy to make hydrogen through electrolysis. Its really not that efficient although its very clean. Since its volatile and needs to be stored in strong pressure tanks you're going to run into capacity issues and bigtime export issues.

Food: Hydroponics is great for small areas and maybe a really small village. But they too require alot of territory to supplement the diet of an entire city. Remember, we're talking about supplementing an entire city whose diet is going to be fish and "insert kelp product here". You'll need diversity in your plants to get the nutrients and minerals for a steady diet. Hope you're really good at making kelp and soy burgers. Prepare for revolts when the people get tired of fish.

Materials: You'll need alot of materials to create these things in the first place. You'll need alot of space to store repair and maintenance supplies. Since you can't create these out of water, fish, or seaweed you'll need to import these materials. This means you have to have some form of credit or product. Exporting hydrogen isn't going to cut it. Maybe if you figure out how to deep sea mine but until then...pipe dreams.

All of your boats, helo's, submersibles, and other vehicles would have to be electric or hydrogen powered unless you import/buy oil from someone. Think someone is going to pay to send a barge out to get your product?

Manufacturing: Wow, alot more space and manpower for this one. Too much to cover here.

Waste: American aircraft carriers have some of the strictest waste management protocols on the high seas. However, even they end up with tons of solid waste that can't be recycled. Where do you plan on dumping your junk and human waste? Batteries, computer/mechanical parts, etc.



Its a nice thought and all but running a city is no small matter. We often take for granted many of our services without realizing the infrastructure that it required to make them work.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2008.11.16 01:46:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: ReaperOfSly
I am ReaperOfSly, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, Where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well.


Louis salutes epic post LaughingShocked

Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.11.16 02:13:00 - [26]
 

Keo, I concur with the infrastructure which is where I think the whole thing needs to be rethought. Every site I have looked over so far is based upon the assumption of no trade whatsoever with the outside world ugh
Wind is in it's early days, however the way I look at it it will be able to be mobile. Start out in European waters where there are massive benefits for wind power and setup there. Build the first stead as a base of operations to support the generators, expand, pay off debts. When it's sustainable, and debts paid off move out into international waters and declare independence. Methinks that a this approach would work, the learning curve would be tough and hence the lessons learned when there is something to fall back on.

EnslaverOfMinmatar
Amarr
Posted - 2008.11.16 02:44:00 - [27]
 

u gonna be proclaimed a terrorist real soon, as soon as mi-6 dudes stop mining veldspar and take a look at oop

Jago Kain
Amarr
Ramm's RDI
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2008.11.16 11:30:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: ouroboros trading
the fake multiculturality imposed on britain by massive economic immigration and welfare state spongers, combined with a dominant liberal media making people doubt their own feelings in regards to this, and yet more petrified to say them aloud for fear of the 'freedom of speech lovers' silencing them with every tactic they claim to stand against, is going to be shattered if the economy fails and people look for someone to blame :)

**** me, could it get bad... Laughing


NF much?



annoing
Amarr
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2008.11.16 12:26:00 - [29]
 

Well, I hope you and Snanzem move away as quick as possible ....you wont be missed from our fair isle thats for sure... Wink



Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.11.16 12:30:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: annoing
Well, I hope you and Snanzem move away as quick as possible ....you wont be missed from our fair isle thats for sure... Wink



Truth be told I haven't a clue what the hell has happened to Shanzem, he's acting completely different to the point I think he has probably sold his account.Neutral


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