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Kerogen Logos
Journey Construction Ltd.
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2008.11.13 15:05:00 - [1]
 

So I was considering how I might best apply the painting and (possibly) webbing to my target, to hopefully undo some of the nerfing that has been done to missiles in the recent patch. Note that I'm currently equally trained in Gallente and Caldari BCs, and this is a purely theoretical excercise for me, and I've been working on picking a damage platform I like. I've picked missiles, especially since they've gotten more interesting now that they require a bit more thought (please don't make that comment the point of this thread).

So here are my options for applying a painter/web to my target, drones or module for both. I'd like to only use one midslot for my damage increase, as I like having a good tank, and generally don't enjoy running away frequently. I'm alright with it taking a bit longer, just so long as I can take at least 2-3 minutes in the fray every time I warp in.

For Painting, it looks like the TP module far outclasses what I could do with 5 medium target painter drones...but the drones have the advantage of giving me the option to web cruisers that might be orbiting within web range. Web drone is out of the question, as I'd only have room for one, and it's a small enough bonus to be laughable, I think I'd be better off with a TP fit and 5 small TP drones.

So here are my possible setups, and I'd appreciate feedback.

Raven with TP fit, 5 medium TP drones, 5 hobgobbies for the frigates (I never thought firing cruises at a frig was a good idea, and this patch has done nothing to change that.)

Raven with TP fit, 5 hammerheads, 5 small TP drones.

Raven with Web fit, 5 TP drones, 5 damage drones

I think the web fit had the distinct damage advantage...if my target is in web range...which I'm assuming won't happen often. I'm leaning heavily toward the medium TP drones, hobgoblins, and a TP fit. I understand that it'd be a lot of stacking penalty though...so that's my dilemma. Hopefully someone will be able to answer some of these finer points for me. Thanks for reading.

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2008.11.13 15:07:00 - [2]
 

Just play the game. Missiles are fine. TP's aren't a requirement on every ship. Webs aren't a requirement on every ship. Shut off EFT and play the game and you'll find that missiles work as good or better than they ever did. Only change from my perspective is considering swapping to precisions instead of faction.

Kerogen Logos
Journey Construction Ltd.
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2008.11.13 15:13:00 - [3]
 

haven't loaded anything in EFT...although I will admit to comparing hybrid turrets to projectiles in a spreadsheet and finding out that hybrids outperform projectiles in every category except Alpha strike, and probably doubles projectile DPS for BS level weapons...but that's not the point...

The point is that it doesn't matter if missiles are "fine" or not. There is still a better way to do things, and I have a feeling that a Target Painter will do a lot to help that damage, considering target sig radius is used twice in the missile damage equation.

Before you assume I'm just some noob with EFT, I'd appreciate it if you'd at least take the time to answer my question.

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2008.11.13 15:16:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Kerogen Logos
haven't loaded anything in EFT...although I will admit to comparing hybrid turrets to projectiles in a spreadsheet and finding out that hybrids outperform projectiles in every category except Alpha strike, and probably doubles projectile DPS for BS level weapons...but that's not the point...

The point is that it doesn't matter if missiles are "fine" or not. There is still a better way to do things, and I have a feeling that a Target Painter will do a lot to help that damage, considering target sig radius is used twice in the missile damage equation.

Before you assume I'm just some noob with EFT, I'd appreciate it if you'd at least take the time to answer my question.


Target painters will help but missiles are fine either way. Tracking is much more of an issue than signature radius is. Missiles might hit for weak damage but turrets won't hit at all. Best way to get the hang of it is just go out and fight your corp mates and test it yourself.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.11.13 15:19:00 - [5]
 

I'm assuming that you're talking about missions. I haven't run any numbers involving rat sigs and speed, but I'd use light drones on the frigates and paint the cruisers for Cruise. And/or use medium drones on them.

I don't have the rats' sigs and speeds to hand to check, but I suspect that with good skills (e.g., TNP V, GMP IV), rat BCs will see little/no damage reduction from Cruise.

If someone does have rat BC sigs/speeds to hand, then I'll run the numbers through Stafen's damage formula. Smile

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2008.11.13 15:25:00 - [6]
 

Ah, we're talking about PVE heh. Sorry, can't help you there.

Kerogen Logos
Journey Construction Ltd.
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2008.11.13 15:33:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Kerogen Logos on 13/11/2008 15:33:01
yes, sorry, this is about PVE...explains your response to me. =D

And I do know about the formula...I'm looking at a set of graphs fight now that gives me the limits of missile damage before falloff starts to set in...I figure I'll use that to show me if and how much the TP is helping. Maybe I'll post a few of them when I'm done...maybe if someone has some representative frig, Cruiser, BC, and BS sig radii that I could plug in, then I'll just give the painted, unpainted graphs v velocity for each missile type?

Noriko Sakai
Gallente
DC1 Coalition
Posted - 2008.11.13 23:08:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kerogen Logos
Edited by: Kerogen Logos on 13/11/2008 15:33:01
yes, sorry, this is about PVE...explains your response to me. =D

And I do know about the formula...I'm looking at a set of graphs fight now that gives me the limits of missile damage before falloff starts to set in...I figure I'll use that to show me if and how much the TP is helping. Maybe I'll post a few of them when I'm done...maybe if someone has some representative frig, Cruiser, BC, and BS sig radii that I could plug in, then I'll just give the painted, unpainted graphs v velocity for each missile type?


For me, cruise are working about the same on cruiser or larger NPC, even worked ok for most destroyers and frigs (if you got the skills). The only problem I have had since the patch is the large waves of Angel Assault Frigs in "Buzz Kill" Lv 4. It would take all 6 launcher and many missiles to kill. I did not try reloading precision cruise but I will try that next time and see if it helps. I prefer precision missiles first before losing a slot to a TP or Web. However TP drone is an interesting idea so will give that a try.

Myra Rodan
Minmatar
Borderlands corp
True Reign
Posted - 2008.11.13 23:26:00 - [9]
 

I hate to sound like such a noob, but I don't think I've seen the new missile damage equation. Can someone post a link to it?

Caractacus Potts
Posted - 2008.11.13 23:47:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Myra Rodan
I hate to sound like such a noob, but I don't think I've seen the new missile damage equation. Can someone post a link to it?


All praise be to Stafen


Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.11.13 23:50:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Noriko Sakai
However TP drone is an interesting idea so will give that a try.


It's very likely that you're better off just using light drones.

Revan Crow
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.11.14 00:35:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Kerogen Logos
Edited by: Kerogen Logos on 13/11/2008 15:33:01
yes, sorry, this is about PVE...explains your response to me. =D

And I do know about the formula...I'm looking at a set of graphs fight now that gives me the limits of missile damage before falloff starts to set in...I figure I'll use that to show me if and how much the TP is helping. Maybe I'll post a few of them when I'm done...maybe if someone has some representative frig, Cruiser, BC, and BS sig radii that I could plug in, then I'll just give the painted, unpainted graphs v velocity for each missile type?


i run missions and thats since my last ...lets say living.... in 0.0 pretty much all i do in eve besides producing stuff.

Now to those missiles and TP:
Cruise missiles still do almost the same damage to all (frigs not counting, those are dronefood)
ships like before. Where i really see a difference is in elite npc (those cruisers/bc with 160k bounty and above) there i feel a drastic lowering in dealt damage. i do fly my raven with TP now and use it for those elite ship npc (tp works like a charm for med drone support too)and it does help,shame that i did not looked at those TP-Drones at all yet...even worse, i have that stuff trained up good.

To precision missiles . Faction still hit (roughly 20%) harder....same goes for Fury , again faction hit (roughly 30%)harder.

Numbers are taken from the log and no, i dont use EFT to calculate stuff like dps ...altho it is a nice tool to see if new stuff will fit pg/cpu wise before purchasing said stuff.

Weryl
Posted - 2008.11.14 03:43:00 - [13]
 

Ok I have to say this for all you EFT warriors ...
Once and for WEBBING DOES NOT HELP MISSLES ...
Let me repeat that ... Webbing in no way helps a missle hit for more damage EVER ... the game counts the velocity of a target at whatever it's supposed to be BEFORE the web ...
Don't believe me? Get a friend ... get a ship .. orbit your friend with a afterburner on .. let him web ... missle does the same damage webbed or unwebbed

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.11.14 03:45:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Weryl
Ok I have to say this for all you EFT warriors ...
Once and for WEBBING DOES NOT HELP MISSLES ...
Let me repeat that ... Webbing in no way helps a missle hit for more damage EVER ... the game counts the velocity of a target at whatever it's supposed to be BEFORE the web ...
Don't believe me? Get a friend ... get a ship .. orbit your friend with a afterburner on .. let him web ... missle does the same damage webbed or unwebbed


*sigh*

50 mil if you're wrong?

To the SISI-mobile!

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2008.11.14 03:54:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Weryl
Ok I have to say this for all you EFT warriors ...
Once and for WEBBING DOES NOT HELP MISSLES ...
Let me repeat that ... Webbing in no way helps a missle hit for more damage EVER ... the game counts the velocity of a target at whatever it's supposed to be BEFORE the web ...
Don't believe me? Get a friend ... get a ship .. orbit your friend with a afterburner on .. let him web ... missle does the same damage webbed or unwebbed


Shocked

Perhaps you should run that test yourself.

Tac Ginaz
Gallente
Liberation Army
Posted - 2008.11.14 05:15:00 - [16]
 

so let me get this straight...


missile users now have to web and paint a target to do equivalent damage to that of a turret gun user.


where does the 'wait for missile to reach target' part come into the balance equation? I do not see it. Not in damage, not in effectiveness, not anywhere.

Terraform
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.11.14 05:48:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tac Ginaz
so let me get this straight...


missile users now have to web and paint a target to do equivalent damage to that of a turret gun user.


where does the 'wait for missile to reach target' part come into the balance equation? I do not see it. Not in damage, not in effectiveness, not anywhere.


If you want to whine get the f=ck out of this thread! The thread is about advice on how to adapt to the new changes and does not need your 2tears of wrath2, go to hell.

dojocan81
Caminus Trux Germani
Ewoks
Posted - 2008.11.14 06:43:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: dojocan81 on 14/11/2008 06:49:46
hi

thats my dmg chart with Stafen's missile formula

CNR with CN Cruise Launcher + 4* Dread Guristas BCU +t1 dev druise missile @ all lvl 5

vs

Angel Cartel NPC's

No tp or web are involved into this graph

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6522/cnrt1angelwm0.png

dojo

Tolsimir Wolfblood
Templars of Space
Posted - 2008.11.14 07:02:00 - [19]
 

I really dont know if you have the skills to fly one but the Golem has never failed me in any mission. Shure ive bee playing for almost two years and have saved my isk to pimp mine out. The thing is the golem gets a bonus to target painters and provides a mid slot for it. With torps, target painters to IV and the support skill to go with it I have have no problems taking down any mission ship and or structure. Battel ships pop in 3-5 volleys depending on the BS and i insta pop every thing els. My advice is to keep training and aim high.

Max Warg
Caldari
Chosen Path
Posted - 2008.11.14 07:50:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Tac Ginaz
so let me get this straight...


missile users now have to web and paint a target to do equivalent damage to that of a turret gun user.


where does the 'wait for missile to reach target' part come into the balance equation? I do not see it. Not in damage, not in effectiveness, not anywhere.


Us turet users have been mounting tracking computers, webs and targets painters since they have been around... SO seriously?? your Complaining??

PS Can i have your stuff?

Dr Fighter
Posted - 2008.11.14 09:56:00 - [21]
 

Just remeber missiles dont 'miss' like turrets.

where a turret might miss 30% of shots on a moving target, missiles just have reduced dmg overall to compensate... or would you rather 1 in every 3 missiles to just fly off in a random direction or the warhead fail to explode instead?

Im going to be fitting my missile boats with either: warp disrupter + TP, or warp disrupter + web - and let my gang know so any other missile boats can fit alternativly. Job Done.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2008.11.14 12:00:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Dr Fighter
Just remeber missiles dont 'miss' like turrets.

where a turret might miss 30% of shots on a moving target, missiles just have reduced dmg overall to compensate... or would you rather 1 in every 3 missiles to just fly off in a random direction or the warhead fail to explode instead?

Im going to be fitting my missile boats with either: warp disrupter + TP, or warp disrupter + web - and let my gang know so any other missile boats can fit alternativly. Job Done.


Missiles get shot down with npc's defenders. So yeah missiles miss...

Tolsimir Wolfblood
Templars of Space
Posted - 2008.11.14 12:00:00 - [23]
 

EH HEM. Torps dont die from defenders.

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2008.11.14 12:03:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Kerogen Logos
Raven with TP fit, 5 medium TP drones, 5 hobgobbies for the frigates (I never thought firing cruises at a frig was a good idea, and this patch has done nothing to change that.)

Raven with TP fit, 5 hammerheads, 5 small TP drones.

Raven with Web fit, 5 TP drones, 5 damage drones


We tried experimenting with TP drones when torps got changed, IIRC 2 heavy target painter drones were optimal way of using 50m bandwith because of stacking. So imo 2 heavy TP drones and 5 goblins would be the best thing you could do, and I doubt you'd need your own target painter that way, those 2 drones will do better than 1 module, at least that's how it was than.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2008.11.14 12:05:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood
EH HEM. Torps dont die from defenders.


Who uses torps for missioning?

Tolsimir Wolfblood
Templars of Space
Posted - 2008.11.14 12:05:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Tolsimir Wolfblood on 14/11/2008 12:13:47
Golem Pilots

Edit: spelling

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.11.14 12:05:00 - [27]
 

Golem pilots, duh.

Tolsimir Wolfblood
Templars of Space
Posted - 2008.11.14 12:20:00 - [28]
 

Seriously though. Using a Golem for lvl4s is just insanity. I'm making just about 20mill per hour

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2008.11.14 12:20:00 - [29]
 

Hmm and how those golems kill enemy bs-es farther than 50km?

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2008.11.14 12:21:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood
Seriously though. Using a Golem for lvl4s is just insanity. I'm making just about 20mill per hour

Pff that is realy low income , no wonder i dont do missions.


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