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blankseplocked so who thinks ccp went to far with missles.
 
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Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:14:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Sig Sour
I suppose now that the patch is out, Ill let you in on the secret. PWNAGE. Ive been buying it up like mad for the last few months, and now its for sale for 20x what i paid for it. PWNAGE is now necessary.

For those of you new to using PWNAGE, search for Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron.


Thank you for your idea to fit a TP, however a ship that outruns your misile explosion even if it's as big as a BS will take little damage (if at all any to be mentioned).. your point?

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:15:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Anonymous Troll
No, CCP did not go too far with missiles.


Your name sums it up.. :P

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:16:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sig Sour
I suppose now that the patch is out, Ill let you in on the secret. PWNAGE. Ive been buying it up like mad for the last few months, and now its for sale for 20x what i paid for it. PWNAGE is now necessary.

For those of you new to using PWNAGE, search for Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron.


Well yeah, 95% of PvE takes place within TP range. A CNR can easily fit one, and they take a few days at most to skill for.

As for PvP... not so sure. But hey I just trained lasers, so I get to mothball my cerb and use a Zealot.


I don't understand Malcanis, if misiles did not see any "big" changes, why are you mothballing your Cerberus and training lasers?

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:17:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Megan Maynard
Hitting ships that fit a MWD.

Lights to hit frigs.
Heavies to hit cruisers or BC.
Cruiser or torps for BS

Not that difficult.


Problem comes when cruise/torp misiles cannot hit BSs for anything worth mentioning...

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:18:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Pilot Abilene
SO... they brought large missiles back in line with large turrets, what's the problem?

...also what's the deal with all these missile users that don't know how to use drones? lol

Oh and btw, I think its funny as hell that all these people saying they are going to train Amarr now because they seem to think large energy turrets are going to hit small targets any better. Hope you're prepared to train most gunnery skills to 5 and be prepared to still miss a lot of hits vs smaller targets. ^.^




The problem is that Large Turrets do damage to Large targets, Cruise/torps are funny against anything moving at 200m/s out of web range..

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:19:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Suitonia
Edited by: Suitonia on 12/11/2008 03:33:39
oh**** I have to fit a web, or a gang mate does just like with turret ships?
Crying or Very sad


You don't even know what you're talking about, do you...

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:21:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Enjoy the nano nerf, Caldari pigs.

Turret tracking got nerfed by 400% in webrange.




I haven't noticed that Bro, have you? Out of all the PvP scenarios since patch i haven't had a missed hit on my large turrets against another BS... quite different picture with misiles..

oh and by the way, about your running your mouth, aren't you the badass pirate that pretends to be so Uber around here? get a tracking comp you moron.. see, i couldn't give this advice to a caldari pilot.. because... THERE IS NO EXPLOSION VELOCITY MODULE...

Rigs are auxiliary for all ships and are not modules :P

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:23:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Soporo

CCP needs to require armor tanking gun ships to lose another low slot in order to do proper damage to the same size ship class, just like shield tankers have to do now.Wink


We lost 3 midslots if we want to get somewhere near old tracking values. Caldari whiners are better off.



You lost 3 midslots what? i wish i can lose 3 low slots to get back to where it was.. but it's not possible is it.. not to mention if you're really failing to track BS size ships within web range you are a poor EvE player :P

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:25:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri
I tried shooting a drake in a thorax today, turned on MWD and burnt right at it.
Three volleys of precision scourge put me into 75% armor, turning off the MWD didn't so much help.

Not sure what you guys are complaining about, the only things that are actually going to be fitting ABs anyway are frigates and you couldn't kill those before the patch either.


Maybe you shouldn't have burned "right at him" now should you.. :PP and yes if you start from 60km what do you expect? not to mention fighting a Drake in a Thorax.. I assure you the result of a Moa trying to kill a Harbinger would be even worse..

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:27:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Dracthera
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 12/11/2008 02:45:32

I blew through a Level 4 with a Drake a little earlier. Honestly I think heavy missiles are even more effective against BC's and BS's than they used to be. Light drones seem to be doing more damage too although maybe that's my imagination.

The missiles definitely do less damage against small targets though, and the smaller targets seemed to be hitting me pretty hard for their size. But it seems like a fair trade. I don't use BS-sized missiles though except for Bombers and I haven't tested those yet.


This. Same experience for me today. Ran GE4 in my Drake yesterday as a baseline before the patch. Ran it again today after the patch, and it sure seems like I finished it a lot faster. I'll have to time it tomorrow to see how it comes out. Heavy missiles work awesome against everything.


Yep, maybe Raven's should now come with a button, switch to Drake mode.. that'd be cool, i admit :)

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:28:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sig Sour
I suppose now that the patch is out, Ill let you in on the secret. PWNAGE. Ive been buying it up like mad for the last few months, and now its for sale for 20x what i paid for it. PWNAGE is now necessary.

For those of you new to using PWNAGE, search for Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron.


Well yeah, 95% of PvE takes place within TP range. A CNR can easily fit one, and they take a few days at most to skill for.

As for PvP... not so sure. But hey I just trained lasers, so I get to mothball my cerb and use a Zealot.


I don't understand Malcanis, if misiles did not see any "big" changes, why are you mothballing your Cerberus and training lasers?


If it turns out that cerb is not good I have alternatives. Cerb is still as good for ratting as it ever was. Haven't tried CNR yet.

Personally I suspect that Cerb will still be good as a ranged DPS ship in PvP, but right this instant I'm in a pulse ealot and haven't had opportunity to test my cerbs in a fight.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:33:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
What a bummer. I used to enjoy coming home from work to play a nice level four in less than an hour. Now it takes all night. What people are saying about missile ships being inline with other races in PVE is true, but that really only shows how bad EVE PVE already was. Theoretically, in a well balanced game no race should have a particular advantage in PVE, and it should be fun and do-able for all races. But with hordes of smaller ships, and turrets sucking at tracking them, it just became a royal pain in the ass for most ships save the missile ships and the drone ships. Now those are being nerfed.

At some point, EVE should take a serious look at the PVE system and redo it from the ground up so that all races can fly and enjoy relatively profitable PVE. Until then, the minimum they could do is undo this missile nerf.


Here's a person that can stay impartial for ones. I agree with this statement. If devs wanted to put things in line so much how come they are doing it behind the scenes, so much so that the general public doesn't even have a clue? sure they have Sisi, but i doubt even 10% if anything closer to that actually knows about and uses it. Not to mention that it is completely a WAY over the line drastic change.

Most people don't care as they have high SP trained in more than 1 race but majority of newer players do not, and should not be treated as pebbles moved from one place to another just b/c someone had one too many donuts at CCP.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:34:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Suitonia
Edited by: Suitonia on 12/11/2008 03:33:39
oh**** I have to fit a web, or a gang mate does just like with turret ships?
Crying or Very sad


You don't even know what you're talking about, do you...


u sure do with your

12 POST CO-CO-CO-COMBO!!!!

at first i was like Laughing
but then i was like Rolling Eyes

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:35:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sig Sour
I suppose now that the patch is out, Ill let you in on the secret. PWNAGE. Ive been buying it up like mad for the last few months, and now its for sale for 20x what i paid for it. PWNAGE is now necessary.

For those of you new to using PWNAGE, search for Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron.


Well yeah, 95% of PvE takes place within TP range. A CNR can easily fit one, and they take a few days at most to skill for.

As for PvP... not so sure. But hey I just trained lasers, so I get to mothball my cerb and use a Zealot.


I don't understand Malcanis, if misiles did not see any "big" changes, why are you mothballing your Cerberus and training lasers?


If it turns out that cerb is not good I have alternatives. Cerb is still as good for ratting as it ever was. Haven't tried CNR yet.

Personally I suspect that Cerb will still be good as a ranged DPS ship in PvP, but right this instant I'm in a pulse ealot and haven't had opportunity to test my cerbs in a fight.


Well from experience i know that once you get in Amarr ship line you won't look back for a while.. ;)

My point was toward people that do not have 3-4 races trained up.. they just need to live with the changes. And insomuch as i don't care that much.. i can understand and i see the newer players on the forum trying to make their case but meeting a wall of aahahah suck it you pig speed nerfing noob boo..

Which new players really should not have to deal with.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:36:00 - [195]
 

Edited by: Black Scorpio on 13/11/2008 21:36:13
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Suitonia
Edited by: Suitonia on 12/11/2008 03:33:39
oh**** I have to fit a web, or a gang mate does just like with turret ships?
Crying or Very sad


You don't even know what you're talking about, do you...


u sure do with your

12 POST CO-CO-CO-COMBO!!!!

at first i was like Laughing
but then i was like Rolling Eyes


So you read it? Thank you very much.. i like replying to everyone's post i read.. :)

PS: Edit, mostly everyone's.. :)

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:37:00 - [196]
 

ps, my CNR is still awsome and does l4's just fine.

Train your missile skills and fit a painter (you can still fit a good tank and sacrifice ONE mid), you will do fine.

If that doesn't have you zooming through lvl 4s, then the problem isn't the game, its the user.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:41:00 - [197]
 

Edited by: Black Scorpio on 13/11/2008 21:42:05
Edited by: Black Scorpio on 13/11/2008 21:41:51
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
ps, my CNR is still awsome and does l4's just fine.

Train your missile skills and fit a painter (you can still fit a good tank and sacrifice ONE mid), you will do fine.

If that doesn't have you zooming through lvl 4s, then the problem isn't the game, its the user.


So then you really aren't using Caldari in PvP i gather?

PS: i mean misiles :)
PPS: thank you for your lesson on how to run missions.. Laughing

ArcDragon
Caldari
Ghost Data
Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:51:00 - [198]
 

I closely followed the changes to missles during their testing and developement. I also saw the data and graphs posted by the developers for the speed changes.

1) I agree with having a more uniform speed spread.
2) My Raven now goes 94 m/s base from it's previous 115 m/s base.
3) I hate myself.

About missles:

1) Too far, they are not doing enough damage to compete with other weapon systems.
2) I'd hate to be the guy sorting this all out.


I do feel like all I have been working for with training up battleship skills, training up missles and learning various fits for a CNR have been devalued by missles no longer doing their previous damage against various ship sizes/speeds.

The original problem was based upon players going ludicrous speed and I believe they did and should have gotten their spankings, but why should missles also get a severe reduction in damage capabilities (yes, I know it came about due to a relationship between speed and missles)?

I do not buy the "fit a Target Painter" arguement. I don't buy it because other systems do not require an additional module to be on par with other weapons system damage. Let me be more clear, a cruise missle launched against a given target will do an amount of damage. A railgun/energy weapon etc. fired at comperable range will always do more. The BASE level of missle damage has been lowered too much. I should not have to fit a target painter just to keep up with the Jones'es old ray gun.

I am dissapointed that I am now less capable than I was. That is very counter productive to the average Eve player.

Please increase or compensate or tweak in a fashion that will yield more damage.

Thank you.

Brea Lafail
Posted - 2008.11.14 01:03:00 - [199]
 

ITT people who don't understand the missile changes.


Marak Bon
Parallax Continuum
Motivated and Determined
Posted - 2008.11.14 02:33:00 - [200]
 

I havnt noticed a difference in missions/pvp, but then again, i have always used TP drones - gets the sig radius on most ships waaaay up. Especially with the associated skills trained up to l5. Yeah you lose 100 dps or so from not having combat drones, but really with a torp chucking raven hitting at 38km or so for around 1000 dps, do you really need combat drones?

I neither like nor dis-like the changes, they add a little more complexity to my fits(considering adding a web now, as some of those bs's keep running or chasing as the case may be haha.)


Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2008.11.14 03:41:00 - [201]
 

I think I'm going to go and post this in al;l the missile whine threads, because TBFH it needs to be said:

Well let's look at the nerfs and some buffs of the last year or so, and see how caldari compares to other races:

Tier II BCs introduced, caldari and gallente both get a BC capable of fielding >BS sized tanks. Nice Buff IMO (though they later get nerfed a bit, they still field awesome tanks)

Nos nerf. Affects everyone but mostly the gallente with their nos Domis.

Drone bandwidth. Gallente get a huge nerf that hits 2 of their best ships (Eos and Myrmi) Required? Of course, but the nerf was over the top. The ishkur also took a beating with this one.

Drone shield recharge nerf. Gallente get hit really hard with this one as recalling/relaunching drones is no longer very viable.

First nano nerf. Nanophoons and nanodomis are no more. Gallente and minmatar get nerfed.

I know at some point the calldari recons got boosted, though I don't remember exactly how Razz If someone can point out the change to me that'd be appreciated.

Resistance nerf. Armor lost some EM, shields lost some explosive, everyone gets nerfed.

Torp Buff. All of a sudden the raven becomes a very viable option in pvp. A raven + a tackler is a dangerous combination when the raven can easily hit >1k DPS

Sensor damps reduced massively in effectiveness (by about 50%) HUGE gallente recon nerf.

Second nano nerf. Many matari (as well as some gallente + amarr) ships become far less useful in pvp.

Those who were paying attention earlier may have noticed that drone boats got nerfed pretty hard a while back. But blaster ships are still viable in pvp!

Oh wait...

Web nerf. Blaster boats do not have the optimal to work without a good web. The web reduction results in a required tracking several times greater then before, and much more then blasters have.

The missile nerf. The raven is no longer the powerhouse of mission running.

I'm pretty sure that caldari have had it easy for quite some time now, it amazes me how quickly people complain the instant CCP changes their PVE boats. You'll get used to it, it's not like you're competing against other people in the mission...

And as far as PvP goes, Torp raven is still awesome, all ECM ships are as well, and I will be soon flying a blasteRokh as it'll be one of the few blaster boats with the range to track targets.

Everyone gets nerfed, the ships are far from useless. There will still be more caldari pilots and caldari raven mission runners then any other race, and the price on CNRs is a hundred freaking mil higher then the navythron...

This is the first nerf felt by mission runners in years, which is why we're seeing so much complaining, eventually they will realize that the sky is not, in fact, falling and we will all resume our normal eve lives.

Ragnar Darkstar
Posted - 2008.11.14 04:28:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Korovyov
TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.


So I can have wrecking shots with Cruise missiles and do over 1000 DPS at close range?

Razz

Khamal Jolstien
Caldari
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.11.14 04:48:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Brea Lafail
ITT people who don't understand the missile changes.



And I spotted one!

CHAOS100
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.11.14 05:03:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
Originally by: Korovyov
TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.


So I can have wrecking shots with Cruise missiles and do over 1000 DPS at close range?

Razz


Sure, its called torps, remember that other caldari weapon?
can I trade my ~2% wrecking chance to have guns hit constantly?

Terraform
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.11.14 05:17:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: CHAOS100
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
Originally by: Korovyov
TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.


So I can have wrecking shots with Cruise missiles and do over 1000 DPS at close range?

Razz


Sure, its called torps, remember that other caldari weapon?
can I trade my ~2% wrecking chance to have guns hit constantly?


Gee, using wrecking shot as a way to try to "justify" how turrets are supposedly "better" is just lol. Fly a turrent-ship and then you'll see that unlike WoW you can't boost your critical/wrecking hit chance to 25% or more, it stays at 1-2% and you rarely get to see it.

Ragnar Darkstar
Posted - 2008.11.14 06:34:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Terraform
Originally by: CHAOS100
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar
Originally by: Korovyov
TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.


So I can have wrecking shots with Cruise missiles and do over 1000 DPS at close range?

Razz


Sure, its called torps, remember that other caldari weapon?
can I trade my ~2% wrecking chance to have guns hit constantly?


Gee, using wrecking shot as a way to try to "justify" how turrets are supposedly "better" is just lol. Fly a turrent-ship and then you'll see that unlike WoW you can't boost your critical/wrecking hit chance to 25% or more, it stays at 1-2% and you rarely get to see it.


The point is that you have to take into consideration all the various strengths and weaknesses of weapons systems. Missiles generally are not used in PVP, from what I understand. Most people seem to consider turrets to be more effective. As a trade-off, they were always better in PVE. The posters saying that it is fair to nerf missiles in PVE to bring them inline to turrets are ignoring the unaddressed weaknesses of missiles in PVP. The patch appears to have left missiles inferior in both PVP and PVE. So then, why would you fly a missile ship? I don't think the developers intended a whole class of weapons/ships to be that ineffective. I understand what they were trying to accomplish with the re-balance, but I think they went too far and it needs to be re-adjusted. As it stands now, my Maelstrom is more effective doing damage than my Raven in missions, and Artillery has never been considered to be particularly effective at PVE. Missiles need some kind of adjustment for balance. Either make them as effective at PVP as turrets, or make them more effective at PVE as a tradeoff.

Oh, and since you brought up our favorite mmo besides EVE, I should inform you that my Maelstrom is entirely crewed by Night Elf Rogues.

Wink

Stunna Shade
Posted - 2008.11.14 06:41:00 - [207]
 

They fixed missiles.

Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Sc0rched Earth
Posted - 2008.11.14 06:46:00 - [208]
 

Edited by: Mithrantir Ob''lontra on 14/11/2008 06:47:55
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar


The point is that you have to take into consideration all the various strengths and weaknesses of weapons systems. Missiles generally are not used in PVP, from what I understand. Most people seem to consider turrets to be more effective. As a trade-off, they were always better in PVE. The posters saying that it is fair to nerf missiles in PVE to bring them inline to turrets are ignoring the unaddressed weaknesses of missiles in PVP. The patch appears to have left missiles inferior in both PVP and PVE. So then, why would you fly a missile ship? I don't think the developers intended a whole class of weapons/ships to be that ineffective. I understand what they were trying to accomplish with the re-balance, but I think they went too far and it needs to be re-adjusted. As it stands now, my Maelstrom is more effective doing damage than my Raven in missions, and Artillery has never been considered to be particularly effective at PVE. Missiles need some kind of adjustment for balance. Either make them as effective at PVP as turrets, or make them more effective at PVE as a tradeoff.

Oh, and since you brought up our favorite mmo besides EVE, I should inform you that my Maelstrom is entirely crewed by Night Elf Rogues.

Wink


What people were saying was and still is that Cladari ships are not that good for solo pvp. And the reason for that was not the missiles but the fact that shield tank requires mid slots, as the warp jammers and webbers and other modules do.

They were not preferred in large gangs due to the flight time of the missiles, but guess what no drone ships are welcomed either in large fleets (unless it's with sentries) due to the flight time the drones need to reach the target.

Don't believe whatever people are saying in the forums, it's not always true.
Lately the impression that many people writing constantly in forums rarely log in the game and actually play it, is growing.

As for PVE I still can't understand why it's impossible for the Caldari ship users to alternate their setups, and gain at least a portion of their former glory.

I do missions in a Dominix (drones got hit also right?) and managed to do one mission after patch. The outcome was that due to the patch i managed to finish the mission faster than i used too ( i was using target painter even before the patch). I am pretty sure that Raven pilots can modify their setups a little in order to take advantage of the changes.

Ragnar Darkstar
Posted - 2008.11.14 06:51:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra


I do missions in a Dominix (drones got hit also right?) and managed to do one mission after patch. The outcome was that due to the patch i managed to finish the mission faster than i used too ( i was using target painter even before the patch). I am pretty sure that Raven pilots can modify their setups a little in order to take advantage of the changes.


A midslot on a Dominix is less of a sacrifice than a midslot on a Raven. 90% of the problems could be solved with a highslot version of the target painter and maybe some minor tweaks to explosion velocity. Drake/Raven/CNR all have an extra highslot.

Ackwell
Caldari
Tiera Javelin Ltd.
Posted - 2008.11.14 07:04:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: Ackwell on 14/11/2008 07:35:22
Originally by: Goyda
Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius.


Are you basically trying to say that only new players fly small ship classes? At last the small ship lovers get some long waited love. My Vengeances missiles has never been this effective <3. And probably you can fly some smaller ships too? It's about choosing the right one to the right occasion. And for your information all BS's have dronebay for small targets, I wonder why you already fly a BS and don't even have drone skills. What I love about EVE is that you can be an experienced player and still fly small ships and all classes are viable in combat. Now it levels it up even more.

EDIT: missing tag


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