Posted - 2008.11.12 07:53:00 - [62]

 

TBH the missles were as out of line as nano ships, so CCP fixed both.

there is NO way that a long range BS weapon should be able to hit a cruiser at under 1km from you, its completely out of line and no other long range BS weapon can hit a orbiting cruiser sized ship that close.

bears got nano killed and missles inlined, that just the way CCP works

Posted - 2008.11.12 08:05:00 - [64]

 

Originally by: Poba

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there is NO way that a long range BS weapon should be able to hit a cruiser at under 1km from you

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Ok now theve killed caldari missile monstrosities its time to make smart bombs caldari only,put them under the missile skill tree, pimp the dmg power, extend the range of the bombs and allow them in empire. then I might forgive ccp for this

Posted - 2008.11.12 09:05:00 - [66]

 

I cant say anything, it's just wrong to lower the damage capabilities of a weapon in this way.

Turret weapons arent effective on short range if u use long range weapons or in short range if u use short range weapons, but they all can do allways max damage under the correct configuration.

Let's describe the correct configuration for doing max damage on missiles.

* Your missile explosion velocity has to be higher than target velocity. After nerf, it's like if every ships is flying ten times faster than it was before, so a crap bs flying 130 m/s is like a 1300 m/s bs.
* The speed comparison between any missile explosion velocity and their same size ships objective is totally a joke. On normal combat they have like a 40% speed of the ship and in most cases in pvp it's down to 10%. Even a npc-rat can speed tank u.
* The drawbacks from missiles keep the same (Fly time to deal damage, Posible destruction by Smartbombs-Defenders, U can keep outrunning they).
* Missile weapons + shield tanking is a total pain, so being missile ship focused has a huge lack of posibilities in fitting.


It's totally out of range. U have lowered speed for all people but U have destroyed the way of playing using missiles.

/signed.

Posted - 2008.11.12 09:18:00 - [68]

 

Originally by: Arikanaiz

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Originally by: SenshiMaru

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Originally by: Rail Gun

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We have tested missiles now and they are totally worthless... BS can speed tank part of torpedeos damage only by MOVING without MWD ot AB.

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you mean they work exactly like all the other types of guns? *mind blown*

It is my opinion that this is exactly how missles SHOULD work but everyone is just used to them being broken.

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No they don't work like all types of guns, the damage penalty they suffer from a moving target is great than that of a hybrid turret and thier ROF is no where near the same. if you remember, a raven couldn't rival the DPS of a Megathron, moving target or not. Now, if the target is moving we can have up to a 50% drop in DPS... is that still BALANCED and FAIR?

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Actually a cruise raven had a greater dps than a rail mega and the raven does not need to change ammo every 15-20km nor does it miss virtually 100% under 30km or so....

Posted - 2008.11.12 10:05:00 - [70]

 

Originally by: ian666

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adapt empire n00bs

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L0ts of us use missiles *t0rped0s* for PVP. y0ur c0mments make n0 sense t0 me in that regard. Please next time think bef0re assuming that every0ne that uses missiles is an empire n00b.

Posted - 2008.11.12 10:10:00 - [72]

 

I like the new missiles. No more escaping their effects simply by going fast, meaning that the range advantage of long-range ships becomes meaningful. Meanwhile, close-range missiles are pretty much unaffected.

The old situation was far too binary, with missiles doing either full or no damage. It was stupid. The new formula is much more sophisticated. Cruise could do with another look, however.

Posted - 2008.11.12 10:22:00 - [74]

 

Originally by: Gypsio III

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I like the new missiles. No more escaping their effects simply by going fast, meaning that the range advantage of long-range ships becomes meaningful. Meanwhile, close-range missiles are pretty much unaffected.

The old situation was far too binary, with missiles doing either full or no damage. It was stupid. The new formula is much more sophisticated. Cruise could do with another look, however.

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LOL regardless of how sophisticated the MATH is, the outcome is still the same, and "No more escaping their effects simply by going fast," every ship in the game can now speed tank missiles, depending on thier size, some without even using Mods. and missiles didn't either hit for full or no damage, damages WERE reduced by sig radius and explosion, they just booted the ratio for some reason.

"Rage rocket, assault missiles and torpedoes and Fury light, heavy and cruise missiles will do less damage to their own ship class but will do more damage to a larger ship class. They will also have a -10% range reduction. "

So, if I fit a RAGE torpedo, and engage a battleship, because I'm' in a battleship, it'll do less damage?

The folks at CCP didn't think this through, and didn't listen to anyone that told em it'd be a BAD idea, they simply said, hey, this sounds complicated, lets do this!!! It'll be great, they'll all be glad we're here to come up with such COMPLICATED and "shopisticated" ideas.....

"The simplest answers, are usually the correct ones!"

PUT IT BACK TO NORMAL AND LEAVE EM ALONE!! THEY SUCKED BEFORE DON"T MAKE EM SUCK WORSE.

Posted - 2008.11.12 10:29:00 - [76]

 

Originally by: Arikanaiz

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Originally by: Role Play

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Originally by: Loyal Soldier

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Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn

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Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 12/11/2008 06:28:17


So, heres a novel thought. Quit spamming missions like an isk farmer, go to low sec and play the damn game. You kids were sooo happy when you thought this nerf meant "Drakes Online". And now the streets are running high with a river of carebear tears.

Heres another thought: Fit LIGHT drones. Buy a tissue. Dry Tears. Problem solved.

And hold on..... It took you 10-20 minutes longer... oh noez... this is an out rage. You should petition to get your life back.

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I wonder if you even decided to look at the missile specs now. Wrath Cruise Missile - Explosion Velocity = 69m/s
wow...........a car can go faster than that. Get a brain before you decide to spew your crap here. And it's not up to you to dictate where we play or how we run missions.

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...dude you know that 69m/s is 250km/h right?

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DUDE... did you know that every ship in the games speed is in METERS/SECOND???? not KM/H????/

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Do you know how the metric system works? KM/H is the same as M/S.

Posted - 2008.11.12 10:32:00 - [78]

 

Originally by: Gypsio III

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I like the new missiles. No more escaping their effects simply by going fast, meaning that the range advantage of long-range ships becomes meaningful. Meanwhile, close-range missiles are pretty much unaffected.

The old situation was far too binary, with missiles doing either full or no damage. It was stupid. The new formula is much more sophisticated. Cruise could do with another look, however.

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Binary? at least there was a way to use missiles @ 100%.

Cruise raven for PvP? Dead
Stealth Bomber? Dead
Widow? It was pre nerfed before... now it's even worst.

using caldari ship for pvp with missiles today:

Torp raven/golem, only if your fleet is rdy to support you.
Good dmg vs any BS without AB. BS with AB or any other ship can speed tank ur torps.

Cerberus, you can deal dmg to every ship, but you can't break any tank alone and also you don't have tackler capability, but if your mates are smart, you can see your name into the killmail.

Posted - 2008.11.12 10:59:00 - [80]

 

Originally by: Gypsio III

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Originally by: Arikanaiz

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LOL regardless of how sophisticated the MATH is, the outcome is still the same, and "No more escaping their effects simply by going fast," every ship in the game can now speed tank missiles, depending on thier size, some without even using Mods. and missiles didn't either hit for full or no damage, damages WERE reduced by sig radius and explosion, they just booted the ratio for some reason.

"Rage rocket, assault missiles and torpedoes and Fury light, heavy and cruise missiles will do less damage to their own ship class but will do more damage to a larger ship class. They will also have a -10% range reduction. "

So, if I fit a RAGE torpedo, and engage a battleship, because I'm' in a battleship, it'll do less damage?

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Oh dear.

If a ship larger than a frigate or certain HACs is fitting a AB, the chances are that your damage output to it is quite inconsequential, because said ship is lol fit. Also, an ABing ship is trivial to web, and if you don't have your target tackled and webbed, why are you shooting at it? Damage mitigation via ABs looks nice on paper, but doesn't actually work very well in practice.

Rage HAMs and torps still require the target to be tackled, but now do more damage. That's a boost, in my book. As is the massively increased damage of any missile to any fast MWDing target.

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Are we not getting something here? Where is the "massively increased damage of any missile to any fast MWDing target".... The faster the target the less damage the missile does.

"Also, an ABing ship is trivial to web" so, now those of us who shield tank instead of armor tank must sacrafice a mid slot to equip a web, even though the web has had the its effectiveness reduced from 90% on a t2 to 60% on a t2, which even on cruisers, 1 t2 webifier still leaves the ship traveling over its base speed, which inturn lowers damage done by missiles? so that negates the purpose of the web.

People may argue, that turrets don't always hit. Yes thats true, people will argue that missiles ALWAYS hit, no matter the range, Yes thats true too. But whats a turrets rate of fire? Whats a launchers? A LARGE t2 Nuetron Blasters rate of fire, 7.88 Seconds, the rate of fire on a STANDARD Light missile launcher, t2, is 12.00, so a missile, made to hit frigates and destroyers, which any noob starts out with.. Has over a 4 second delay in ROF than a turret designed for engagin battleships! Now, if that battleship is flying away from it, the missile does less damage.

"Turrets have negative effects for speed as well Arik!" Only if that target is orbiting, and even then, you have mods to increase tracking speed, oh.. and our "explosion velocity vs. ship velocity penalty, it doesn't matter which direction thier going, as long as thier going. Turrets can strike for perfect damage if a target is flying straight towards them. I've seen people 1 volley an interceptor going over 9km/s, a megathron, with railguns, taking out a ship going 9km/s, with one volley. Now, my missiles wouldn't even do 0.2 damage.

THANK YOU CCP

Posted - 2008.11.12 11:05:00 - [82]

 

Edited by: UrsaeMajoris on 12/11/2008 11:10:09
Edited by: UrsaeMajoris on 12/11/2008 11:06:17

Originally by: Gypsio III

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Originally by: Arikanaiz

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LOL regardless of how sophisticated the MATH is, the outcome is still the same, and "No more escaping their effects simply by going fast," every ship in the game can now speed tank missiles, depending on thier size, some without even using Mods. and missiles didn't either hit for full or no damage, damages WERE reduced by sig radius and explosion, they just booted the ratio for some reason.

"Rage rocket, assault missiles and torpedoes and Fury light, heavy and cruise missiles will do less damage to their own ship class but will do more damage to a larger ship class. They will also have a -10% range reduction. "

So, if I fit a RAGE torpedo, and engage a battleship, because I'm' in a battleship, it'll do less damage?

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Oh dear.

If a ship larger than a frigate or certain HACs is fitting a AB, the chances are that your damage output to it is quite inconsequential, because said ship is lol fit. Also, an ABing ship is trivial to web, and if you don't have your target tackled and webbed, why are you shooting at it? Damage mitigation via ABs looks nice on paper, but doesn't actually work very well in practice.

Rage HAMs and torps still require the target to be tackled, but now do more damage. That's a boost, in my book. As is the massively increased damage of any missile to any fast MWDing target.

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Rage torps damage got "boosted" from 540 to 576, that's only an increase of about 6.67%. Do you think that "boost" is in scale with giving Rage torps over 15% more explosion radius?
Point is, whatever standard rage torp boat fitting you have, you will do less damage now because of the decreased damage per sig radius ratio of rage torps - not to mention this is disregarding the ridiculousness of targets being able to speedtank torps with only an AB.
So now you need your bs-sized target double webbed, and double painted - the only way to do full damage with rage torps now to BS targets.

Yes this isn't a solo game, but look at it now, a megathron up against other battleship targets doesnt need as much/many support/support modules to hit for full damage with T2 close range ammo than a Raven with T2 rage torps does.

Posted - 2008.11.12 11:08:00 - [84]

 

Let's do the same to turrets that u have done to missiles.

If u try to hit a ship that is smaller than the ammunition that it's supposed to be required to kill it, u should reduce the damage in the same way than missiles are suffering now.

Using a Large turret vs a ceptor should mean doing 25/400 = 1/16 of damage.
Using a Medium turret vs a ceptor should mean 25/125 = 1/5 of damage.
Using a small turret vs a ceptor 25/40 = 5/8 of damage.

Let's see what happends then.

This is totally ridiculous to think that this nerf means balance. This means de destruction of missiles.

Posted - 2008.11.12 11:13:00 - [86]

 

Edited by: Captator on 12/11/2008 11:14:42

Originally by: Harkonin

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Let's do the same to turrets that u have done to missiles.

If u try to hit a ship that is smaller than the ammunition that it's supposed to be required to kill it, u should reduce the damage in the same way than missiles are suffering now.

Using a Large turret vs a ceptor should mean doing 25/400 = 1/16 of damage.
Using a Medium turret vs a ceptor should mean 25/125 = 1/5 of damage.
Using a small turret vs a ceptor 25/40 = 5/8 of damage.

Let's see what happends then.

This is totally ridiculous to think that this nerf means balance. This means de destruction of missiles.

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Have you not noticed all the complaints about gallente blaster boats in web range now that webs are nerfed? The damage reduction against a smaller vessel with a savvy target is 100% from main weapons (I ignore drones as both missile and turret BS can field them).

I can tracking tank a deimos in web range with an interceptor, he cannot kill me, period, against a cerberus or even a caracal, I would likely have to disengage.

edit: and blasters are the best tracking guns, so whatever problems they have are amplified inside webrange for the others. You trade off potentially reduced damage at all ranges with missiles, for potentially full damage at all ranges.

Posted - 2008.11.12 11:16:00 - [88]

 

Originally by: Harkonin

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Let's do the same to turrets that u have done to missiles.

If u try to hit a ship that is smaller than the ammunition that it's supposed to be required to kill it, u should reduce the damage in the same way than missiles are suffering now.

Using a Large turret vs a ceptor should mean doing 25/400 = 1/16 of damage.
Using a Medium turret vs a ceptor should mean 25/125 = 1/5 of damage.
Using a small turret vs a ceptor 25/40 = 5/8 of damage.

Let's see what happends then.

This is totally ridiculous to think that this nerf means balance. This means de destruction of missiles.

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ur nowlegde on hybirds fail

the blasters llready miss 9/10 times on smaller oponents due to tracking failness on the turrets even with ship bonus it isnt enough but we dint whine about it as much and ask for them to nerf everyone else so we can win

Posted - 2008.11.12 11:17:00 - [90]

 

Originally by: Arikanaiz

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Instead of just complaining I offer a Fix to CCP, increase launcher ROF 30%, and decrease the size of the missiles to allow launchers to carry more ammo.

Currently torpedo launchers carry around 18 rounds, while blasters carry 120. about 7 times as many rounds.

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this is because misiles have range and allways it unless the target is moving fast yet blasters miss 9/10 times and have very very reduced range compared to missiles