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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.11.05 18:28:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 05/11/2008 18:29:20
Yeah, I know we'll probably 'hear more about it at fan fest', but I'm bored and want to speculate for no good reason. Very Happy

Even though this patch is delivering some pretty far reaching and epic game play changes (hell, it's fundamentally turning the way we fight in Eve upside down and backwards in a lot of respects), the overall response that I'm seeing so far is 'meh, it's okay I guess'.

Not a lot of people are really excited about the upcoming changes. At least that's the feeling I'm getting from reading the forums and talking to random people in game. A lot of replies to the dev blogs and announcements have been 'where's the content?' and so on. As annoyed as I am with the impact the changes are having to blaster ships in general, I have to say it: give CCP a break people. They're putting together some pretty drastic changes all in one patch.

How the changes on SISI will impact TQ is anyone's guess. The speed changes, missile damage formula changes, web change and the 2 point scram deactivating MWDs in combination with each other is an extremely complex group of factors. I think we'll be surprised at what evolves as players begin to experiment with how to make the best of the new situation.

Now that the patch is almost here, and looks to be fairly solidified with respect to it's final state, with all the little surprise changes finally in and working, I'd like to start a discussion (friendly, please) about what everyone thinks the new face of PVP will look like, from 1v1 to fleet fights, empire wars to piracy in low sec to 0.0 POS warfare and everything in between.

Let's discuss how the changes are going to affect combat between the different ship classes, different gang sizes, different races and the various combat environments.

I'll try and get things started:

Do you think that CCPs effort to reduce large ship firepower vs. smaller targets their way of trying to entice players to use smaller ships for more 'hit and run' / guerilla warfare style combat?

What about the damage buff to T2 Fury ammunition? Since it has a larger explosion radius, it's best used against ships with (very) large signature radii (BCs, BS). Will the increased damage output help smaller ships against BS enough to make a difference?

Please try and keep it civil. Let's not drag personal epeen waving into the thread. Try and keep it focused on the general game changes. Thanks in advance. YARRRR!!

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2008.11.05 18:32:00 - [2]
 

I don't think the blaster change or needing ships to possibly have to fit smaller guns to combat small ships has anything to do with it; rather I believe CCP's ineptness at handling the entire thing has us in our current situation.

There will be more content to fights, I can say that for sure. More factors to play with now at a time.

Bellum, did you get a chance to read my thread on changing Officer Webs? I know you had some feeling invested into it.

Daitanfutekina Unsoya
Posted - 2008.11.05 18:34:00 - [3]
 

The way I see it, they've nerfed all of eve just to buff one ship class.

It's the opposite of what a dev should be doing imho.

Feeling a serious lack of playing eve after this patch..

I've never heard of an idea as bad as cutting webbers down to what they are now.

I'll need to hire a huggin to follow me around just to have the same effectiveness again.

Rest in peace gangs-solo.


Ava Baby
Paxton Industries
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.11.05 18:43:00 - [4]
 

I'm just looking forward the over-extended down time.

I hope this patch doesn't f-up any computers Very Happy

Frankinator
Caldari
Rebirth.
THE GOD SQUAD
Posted - 2008.11.05 18:44:00 - [5]
 

Bellum, no offense m8, I respect your opinion and value it, but god you whine a lot Razz

All Im going to say is that I have no problem fighting off smaller ships in my Golem on Sisi, just requires Javelin torps. On that note, I dont really have problems fighting anything except snipers and the occasional Autocannon Tempest who knows what hes doing...

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.11.05 18:45:00 - [6]
 

I foresee less casual pvp-ing and more whining Very Happy

Smaller ship guerilla? Not gonna happen to the extent CCP might be hoping.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:06:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Frankinator
Bellum, no offense m8, I respect your opinion and value it, but god you whine a lot Razz

All Im going to say is that I have no problem fighting off smaller ships in my Golem on Sisi, just requires Javelin torps. On that note, I dont really have problems fighting anything except snipers and the occasional Autocannon Tempest who knows what hes doing...


How do you interpret the above as whining? FFS I'm trying to be constructive here. Rolling Eyes

I was simply posing the idea that CCP is trying to change the balance of DPS transfer between small and large ships so that smaller stuff will be more included in PVP.

Let's keep the discussion how how everyone feels the changes will affect the basic aspects of PVP instead of whether or not they will affect any of us personally.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:11:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Frankinator
Bellum, no offense m8, I respect your opinion and value it, but god you whine a lot Razz

All Im going to say is that I have no problem fighting off smaller ships in my Golem on Sisi, just requires Javelin torps. On that note, I dont really have problems fighting anything except snipers and the occasional Autocannon Tempest who knows what hes doing...


How do you interpret the above as whining? FFS I'm trying to be constructive here. Rolling Eyes

I was simply posing the idea that CCP is trying to change the balance of DPS transfer between small and large ships so that smaller stuff will be more included in PVP.

Let's keep the discussion how how everyone feels the changes will affect the basic aspects of PVP instead of whether or not they will affect any of us personally.



Good post, slightly undermined by sig...

Anisa Schardl
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:15:00 - [9]
 

You can count me among the few people that are genuinely excited for the new xpac. Performance upgrades are always great, but beyond that, it gets Eve back to what my picture of it was when I began.

To expand on that, one of the major things that drew me to Eve in the first place was that bigger is not necessarily better. Or at least that was the concept. Just because you CAN fly a battleship didn't mean that you SHOULD in many cases. Larger ship classes were supposed to be relatively ineffective against smaller ships, resulting in balanced fleets consisting of capitals, battleships, and smaller support ships.

I think over time that vision degraded a bit as ships became able to effectively fill roles that a ship of their class really shouldn't be able to fill. Additionally, the proliferation of speed caused other issues, the scope of which is open to debate. But the unarguable result is that speed became king. You simply don't see non-speedy ships in roaming gangs nowadays. This includes pretty much all battleships, half of the cruisers, and a number of the smaller vessels.

The result I'm hoping for from the speed changes is a wider array of options available for an effective gang. Which way combat will evolve is yet to be seen, but I think a wider array of modules will see common usage again. More than anything else, pigeonholing annoys me in any game I play. Being forced into a certain module/fit/class/spec/whatever (depending on the game) always irritates me.

Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:16:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 05/11/2008 19:16:19
..oh look, another nano-nerf whine thread.

poasting. signed. q4t. c/d. amirite.

i'm running out of memes.

Adam C
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:18:00 - [11]
 

30man taranis gangs any1 :D

Keflin Geard
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:21:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Keflin Geard on 05/11/2008 19:33:18
Iíve done my share of whining about the patch - mostly directed at how unevenly it impacts various races and classes of ships. I really hate the wmd/scram mod thing - no other mod has this big a dual use impact - I'd still hate it if it was scripted (either a scram or wmd killer) but at least it would be consistent with recent changes to mods.

I guess I just don't like having radical and scary changes done to a game Iíve invested 3 years of money and effort into, especially ones that don't concentrate on fixing the games main problems while opening a Pandoraís Box of potential new ones.

The main issue I see is how this will affect solo and small gang roaming in the age of choke points, heavy interdictors, titans and bubbles. Speed or superior numbers was really the only way to counter these threats, and with speed radically curtailed... well.

I'll miss the days of going off in my vaga and killing NPC'ing BS - it was getting really hard to do with pro isk farmers and aligned cloaking ravens - this patch will make it a lot harder - maybe to the point of not being worth it and thatís bad for the game.

I have an open mind - I guess the changes to the transport ships is ok, and black ops maybe more viable and weapon stacking change is a certainly a massive improvement.

In light of how other mmoís have run into trouble, I would have liked CCP to have taken a more cautious approach to changing fundamental game mechanics while at the same time adding more content.

I hope that my fears are unjustified and the game prospers Ė I also hope that CCP will keep an open mind as well and if things donít work out, that they have the sense to step in and reverse changes FAST.

Like many people are telling the new President Ė you better not fu%k this up.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:29:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

Good post, slightly undermined by sig...


-ehem- ...hehehe

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:31:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I have to say it: give CCP a break people. They're putting together some pretty drastic changes all in one patch.


Do you think that CCPs effort to reduce large ship firepower vs. smaller targets their way of trying to entice players to use smaller ships for more 'hit and run' / guerilla warfare style combat?



This is the Bellum that I like. Give the ebil threadnaughting Bellum and rest and go with the flow.

As for the question, it is meant to reduce the 13km "webbing sphere of death" that exists on TQ. If you are in a frigate/cruiser you stay far from 13km or else you usually die. Right now on TQ a BS can do anti-support by webbing and killing a small ship very fast, now it will be harder to do. You can try to change your fit and bring smaller drones, but the best thing to do will be bring a smaller ship to do the anti-support role for you.

Jalif
Minmatar
Snuff Box
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:41:00 - [15]
 

I actually really dont have an idea if this will turn out good or bad. I will wait until its deployed & when I have played with it a bit longer.

I think what the following will happen but you never know in eve.
- That the small corporations are now able to make a diffrence by flying the t2 frigates.
- That having the fleet who can counter everything will be more succesfull. But it also depends on the numbers of pilots that you are using.
- Destroyers will be coming back as an rather effective shipclass
- Instead of seeying pilots specializing we could see a trend of corporations specializing depending on their size.
- New people are able to get in the game faster

- The most important: You dont know what to expect! (but this can change during time)

My honest opinion about the patch is it is going to be freaking difficult to be effective in pvp or to find out the perfect fleet to counter an other fleet. Anyway, it makes the game have a turn of 180 degrees, thats what I am sure about.

Daitanfutekina Unsoya
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:44:00 - [16]
 

I'm going to hire a azaru and huggin to follow behind me cloaked so I can 3 vs 1 people now.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:44:00 - [17]
 

One thing that I'm finding kind of interesting is how the changes will affect the market prices of items. Sure, there's been wild speculation in the mineral markets, because the people that are into that sort of thing keep a very close eye on all of that sort of stuff.

But other items, like webs and MWDs are still fairly stagnant when it comes to market prices, even a week before the patch. I'm wondering how long it'll take to proliferate, and what changes will occur with respect to the pricing of modules and their overall sales volume in the next few weeks.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:45:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 05/11/2008 19:46:29
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 05/11/2008 19:46:11
If I need to sum up the changes in short, I would say this: depressing.

I fully appreciate the intention to shake up the nano FOTM and stir things up a bit, and differentiate smaller and bigger ship classes more - it sucks to see BS and all slowed down if you fly them, but I can get the rationale of it.

Changes to interceptors (and small ships in general) designed to be speed tanked are very dissapointing - putting the standard T2 interceptor to the level of damage evasion a poly rigged/pimped TQ interceptor has while lowering their speed is bad design imo. The far reaching changes to scramblers (making them the de-facto must have module for all closerange ships) and webs are a significant nerf to solo tackle and therefore soloing in general (and could've been solved in a more elegant fashion - by boosting AB speeds so sig-based speedtanks vs larger ships are still viable, with keeping webs somewhere between SISI and TQ).

As for how do I think it will work out - well, RR BS gangs will remain on top for gangs, although they naturally pay for this with their bad mobility/etc, because it is not a real issue to deal with smaller ships in gangs of sufficient size (10+).

BCs will be a bit more popular for small gangs then HACs which lost a lot of their appeal.

Small ship gangs are maybe going to be more popular for ganking solo targets or completely outnumbered targets, but little else.

Solo combat will see more small ships being used, like AFs, and to some extent cruisers/HACs/BCs which will however have issues with dealing with all the threats they can deal with now and in general much less reliable to fly. Their versatility has in any case been reduced and they have a smaller amount of ships which they can reasonably deal with.

BS soloing except for a select few ships, is going to be largely a thing of the past. No more epic deadspace/officer-fit faction BS fighting small gangs, going to miss that aspect of EVE even though I don't partake in it.

Medium blaster ships are going to lose a huge part of their appeal, with the inability to get in medium blaster ranges.

There, I think that sums it up so far. It is a bit sad to be honest.

Edit: to answer your question, I dont think MWD/web prices will change, build costs are the same and they will still be fairly popular. For faction/deadspace MWDs (particularly above frig size), it is reasonable to expect prices going down.



Blastil
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:58:00 - [19]
 

As a small ship pilot (I only JUST got into HAC's) I can see some pros to this patch. It will certainly allow for more flexibility of low end T1 and T2 Frigs. Since a player can get into these as fast or faster than a cruiser, it seems to be oriented at enabling lower skill players to compete w/ higher skilled ones. Granted, BS are much less effective in blobs now than they used to be. As it stands, a BS blob might not even be able to pop an AF at this point. That's good. Honestly, your flexibility as a fleet SHOULD go down as your ship size increases. The advantage of medium sized ships like HACS and Recons is that they now stand a much better chance against a gang of BS. What we've seen coming is the death of the 0.0 BS gang. they will be used to support cap ships and bash posses. With those gone, the focus now turns to small and medium ship gangs. The BC will likely be crowned King of 0.0 PVP, and the AF the lord of roams.

While the blaster nerf miffs me in general, I decided to try it out and see if blasters run well against CLASS APPROPRIATE combat, EG cruiser Arrow cruiser, or Cruiser Arrow Battle Cruiser. if they do, I have no problems. As it was, I had a hard time swollowing that in my little AF, I couldn't tank damage from drakes and ravens, even though their missles weren't designed to hunt my kind of ship.

The theory is sound, in the same way that you don't use a nuclear warhead to hunt flies. Larger ships should be aquard in engaging smaller ships.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.11.05 20:00:00 - [20]
 

@ Branko-

What I was talking about regarding the MWD prices and web prices was the juggling of prices with the new 'best' modules going up and some of the others going down.

And with the MWDs- T2 losing it's pricing compared to best named, as they no longer have a speed advantage, and still have a high fitting cost. The difference in cap improvement is negligible for most BS uses, and while it may be a little more important for frigs, frigs also have the most sensitivity to fitting.

Weird tangent: I wonder how the improved cap will affect ships like the Crusader vs. other interceptors, since they're all going to be fairly close in top speed, and the Crusader is always very sketchy with it's cap?

Khandara Seraphim
Amarr
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.11.05 20:02:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Frankinator
Bellum, no offense m8, I respect your opinion and value it, but god you whine a lot Razz

All Im going to say is that I have no problem fighting off smaller ships in my Golem on Sisi, just requires Javelin torps. On that note, I dont really have problems fighting anything except snipers and the occasional Autocannon Tempest who knows what hes doing...


How do you interpret the above as whining? FFS I'm trying to be constructive here. Rolling Eyes

I was simply posing the idea that CCP is trying to change the balance of DPS transfer between small and large ships so that smaller stuff will be more included in PVP.

Let's keep the discussion how how everyone feels the changes will affect the basic aspects of PVP instead of whether or not they will affect any of us personally.



I'd give you a lot more credit if I hadn't read all your other threads, and your 'questions' to zulupark which were basically just political attacks.

That said, you do make several good points. However, I belong to the wait-and-see group, because no nerf has ever been the death of eve and none ever will be. I do think that smaller ships will see some more utility after the patch, but I don't think battleships will be as utterly useless as everyone is emoraging about.

I have a feeling the patch will hit and 3 weeks later everyone will have adapted and life will go on.

Keflin Geard
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.11.05 20:04:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Blastil


The theory is sound, in the same way that you don't use a nuclear warhead to hunt flies. Larger ships should be aquard in engaging smaller ships.


But should they be defenseless when they are set up as the were designed to be?

Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill.
Posted - 2008.11.05 20:08:00 - [23]
 

I think QR is what we saw there.
I mean two things. First, they worked a lot on non-visible things (lag, UI) and they still have ambumlation to work so I don't think they wern't busy. It's a "little" expension feature-wise but most of it is hidden. And ambulation (which i though we would get this december) takes a lot of efforts to work on. Patience (agin).

Second, in ALL threads about "what feat do you want in Eve" the number one feat was "nerf lag". They did. It tooks efforts. So this expension is suposed to be the best since everybody asked this for quite a long time now.

I don't beleive they'll put more big new things in QR : CCP made press anouncements, they allready use their media joker to announce QR. Announcing Ambulation or T3 maybe for summer expension would be my guess (i think when they'll realese this, the hardcore "ambulation nowai" population of player need new toys (sooo... t3 ships ?) or else it'll be rioting in stations :))

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.11.05 22:37:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

Do you think that CCPs effort to reduce large ship firepower vs. smaller targets their way of trying to entice players to use smaller ships for more 'hit and run' / guerilla warfare style combat?


If it is they are doing a really bad job.

Kill off nanos to replace it with frigate gangs that wont realistically be able to fight anything but lone ratters? Kill off the last few solo pvp'ers and thereby remove half the targets for those frigate gangs?

It will be trivial for any decent gang to take out a frigate gang.

Its simply a huge nerf to the fun-factor in the game. I dont play eve to mission or do posbashing.

Jalif
Minmatar
Snuff Box
Posted - 2008.11.05 22:43:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Bellum Eternus

Do you think that CCPs effort to reduce large ship firepower vs. smaller targets their way of trying to entice players to use smaller ships for more 'hit and run' / guerilla warfare style combat?


If it is they are doing a really bad job.

Kill off nanos to replace it with frigate gangs that wont realistically be able to fight anything but lone ratters? Kill off the last few solo pvp'ers and thereby remove half the targets for those frigate gangs?

It will be trivial for any decent gang to take out a frigate gang.

Its simply a huge nerf to the fun-factor in the game. I dont play eve to mission or do posbashing.


I agree... somehow, I feel forced to fly t2 (t3?) frigates if I still want to solo-pvp.

Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar
Dead poets society
The Laughing Men
Posted - 2008.11.05 22:55:00 - [26]
 

Instead of making assumptions here, why don't we see how it affects live when it's out?

Jalif
Minmatar
Snuff Box
Posted - 2008.11.05 22:57:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Rhatar Khurin
Instead of making assumptions here, why don't we see how it affects live when it's out?



Human nature? We can still discuss what we think will happen.. Only gives us more insight (& inspiration) of the topic.

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.11.05 23:02:00 - [28]
 

They are going to nerf something, most likely Titans.


Joss Sparq
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.05 23:13:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
However, I belong to the wait-and-see group, because no nerf has ever been the death of eve and none ever will be. I do think that smaller ships will see some more utility after the patch, but I don't think battleships will be as utterly useless as everyone is emoraging about.

I have a feeling the patch will hit and 3 weeks later everyone will have adapted and life will go on.

Generally, this is my opinion too - I don't know how much extra utility small ships will have and I don't know if 3 weeks is enough time for the waves of whines now crashing against the forums to subside, but essentially this is how I think things will go.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.11.05 23:21:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 05/11/2008 23:21:41
Originally by: Blastil
Granted, BS are much less effective in blobs now than they used to be. As it stands, a BS blob might not even be able to pop an AF at this point. That's good.



Because 2.000 DPS from light drones alone on a 5x webbed frigate without capacitor cannot pop it? Laughing

That's instapop territory to be precise. Not to mention smartbombs, so you can kill them en masse while barely touching your BS buddies, and podding the pilots on top Laughing

What this does change is solo viability. And I for one don't buy that a BS should die to a solo AF. Not hit for 100% DPS, yeah. Die to one? lol

Originally by: Blastil

The advantage of medium sized ships like HACS and Recons is that they now stand a much better chance against a gang of BS.



Ahahah. You mean, they'll be able to hit you perfectly while you can't rep their RR damage to save your arse? Which is precisely what happens. Stop being clueless and using 1v1 stats to determine outcomes on gang v gang combat. Sure, you can keep transversal vs 1 BS. Now try vs 10 in a 6-7km sphere (inside RR range) with 5 webs and 2.000 DPS of light drones on you with 0 capacitor, and report back your lifespan, if any.

Originally by: Blastil

The theory is sound, in the same way that you don't use a nuclear warhead to hunt flies. Larger ships should be aquard in engaging smaller ships.


SISI outcomes:

solo, small ships are total win vs bigger ships (lol)
in gangs, bigger ships rule, with focus fire/droning/inability to mantain transversal vs more then 1 target and ofc inability to use nano to negate damage out of webrange


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