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Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.11.06 21:35:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Q: Why are cruise ravens nerfed with the next patch?
A: Everything is, so why not cruise ravens?



Your logic is bad :P

Cruise Ravens by and large are successful at two things: PVE and theoritically anti-support duties.

Assertions that the Raven does excellent DPS at long range are mostly irrelevent - as people point out in their lolzcaldari posts targets rarely stick around for the 30 seconds it takes the cruise missile to reach that target. From a PVE perspective, you must contend with the fact that you simply will NOT be the fastest mission running ship thanks to DPS output at usual rat ranges; instead, you have a ship that fits solidly in second place in terms of mission running effeciency.

I understand SOMETHING needed to be done to reduce the likelyhood that cruise missiles will be the ultimate answer to point blank frigate and cruiser fighting, but this solution seems terribly silly in my book. Whereas turret ships have accuracy that increases as range increases (so long as you remain in optimal) missile ships worry only about the absolute speed and size of targets. With the explosion speed set so very low for cruise missiles, you not only harm the ability of the missile to harm fast moving small ships, you degrade it's ability to hit ANYTHING moving with the aid of an afterburner.

If there were more options available to a missile user to compensate for the changes I would feel the change is entirely fair. For example, if the missile formula allowed ship maneuvers to make a difference, or if range itself directly aided in accuracy there would be no problem. Hell, if there were even mid and low slot modules that allowed you to overcome the explosion velocity issue (in the same way that tracking computers/enchancers work for guns) then the problem becomes one of fitting compromise.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2008.11.06 21:48:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: dojocan81
Edited by: dojocan81 on 06/11/2008 08:43:08
Originally by: Gawain Hill
Originally by: dojocan81


fixed for you



but according to that graph once the abaddon reaches around 110m/s it acctually takes more damage than when moving below that speed so all torp ravens need to do is make everyone travel at around 110m/s and they'll all take more damage because they are going slightly above 100m/s

i think your graph might be broken


nope, my graph isnt broken, its excel which cannot show somehting better like this

@ 111,8 m/s the curve starts to scale logarithmic down because this is the max explosion velocity of a max skilled torpedo with 5% explo vel. imp

that means, a torp is doing always max damage to his target, if the target
a) has the same or greater signature resolution as the explosion radius of the missile itself
AND
b) is flying slower or equal than the explosion velocity of the missile

this o/c, works for all missiles types so far

Aba: 470 sig
t1 torp explosion radius: 450 explosion radius

Aba+ABII: ~359 m/s
t1 torp explo vel. : 111,8 m/s

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

now lets take resistance into the math:

On an Aba with 1m/s, a max skilled torp in a Raven (3x BCU II, 5% explo vel imp) is doing 782 EM dmg , it will do at least 469,2 dmg due the 60% resi on armor

Now, if the same Abaddon is going with 270 m/s, you'll recieve only 314,5 dmg per torp due its speed.. add the 60% EM resi on it, you'll doing exactly 188,7 EM dmg per torpedo from the same Raven above

thats a 75% reduction with base resistance on an Aba vs a max skilled torp-raven

nice, isnt it ?



Its horrible :(. CCP could judt have removed Caldari BS's from the game for what the missiles boats are worth now :/

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.11.06 22:32:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Q: Why are cruise ravens nerfed with the next patch?
A: Everything is, so why not cruise ravens?



Your logic is bad :P



I think the governing logic of the SISI patch is 'Nerf. Why not?' to be honest.

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.11.06 22:35:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Murina on 06/11/2008 22:35:53
Maybe they are just trying to deflect all the dislike pvpers have for screwing over nano by screwing over cruise in the same patch...give it a few weeks and maybe they will redo cruise to be pwn all weapon systems hoping the player base will have settled down a little.

I would not put it past ccp to be so manipulative after the ghost training incident...

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.11.06 22:36:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Murina
Maybe they are just trying to deflect all the dislike pvpers have for screwing over nano by screwing over cruise in the same patch...give it a few weeks and maybe they will redo cruise to be pwn all weapon systems hoping the player base will have settled down a little.


Heheh, makes sense in a way Laughing

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.11.06 22:44:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Murina
Maybe they are just trying to deflect all the dislike pvpers have for screwing over nano by screwing over cruise in the same patch...give it a few weeks and maybe they will redo cruise to be pwn all weapon systems hoping the player base will have settled down a little.


Heheh, makes sense in a way Laughing



Misery loves company bud, maybe by having all the nano pilots laughing at the carebears, blaster pilots, and well lets face it virtually every ship and weapon system in the freaking game getting nerfed along with them they think will deflect some of the quitting.

Einar Goaler
Minmatar
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2008.11.06 23:12:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: fuxinos
Originally by: Murina
Ravens and cruise have been "balanced" along with nano...deal with it.


Oh yea, now a Abaddon can reduce your Torpdamage by 50% with only going 300m/s.

I never knew that fitting only an afterburner is already called nanoing.

Every turretboat hits for full effect if its bs target is moving 300m/s...
Makes me realy mad, to see that missileboats need web AND TP now and turretboats just web.




I agree. caldari pilots piloting big ships suffer from this. I mean it takes a lot of SP go get missiles going, and a lot of SP for each system. Gunnery pilots only need a few waepon system skills compared to missiles.

THere was never a problem with Cruises and Torps to begin with 8i mean, the Rokh was Caldaris most powerful ship, and it uses gunnery)


Actually Sidus, minmatar need sick heaps of gunnery skills to compensate for shooting in fall-off, tracking, lack of range/dps, etc. Far more than a missile guy has to contend with.

I fly both Minmatar and Caldari and when I want to be lazy and cruise right through missions with no effort, I fly caldari missile boats(with much less sp mind you). When I want a challenge and don't mind paying for structure damage repairs and warping out every now and again, I fly minmatar(with much MORE dedicated sp mind).

Not one pro missile person here has a leg to stand on compared to Minmatar in doing L4 missions. Caldari missile boats have been easy pve mode for some time and ccp are just balancing it out.

Congrats to ccp tbhRolling Eyes


Hyveres
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.11.06 23:18:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Einar Goaler
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: fuxinos
Originally by: Murina
Ravens and cruise have been "balanced" along with nano...deal with it.


Oh yea, now a Abaddon can reduce your Torpdamage by 50% with only going 300m/s.

I never knew that fitting only an afterburner is already called nanoing.

Every turretboat hits for full effect if its bs target is moving 300m/s...
Makes me realy mad, to see that missileboats need web AND TP now and turretboats just web.




I agree. caldari pilots piloting big ships suffer from this. I mean it takes a lot of SP go get missiles going, and a lot of SP for each system. Gunnery pilots only need a few waepon system skills compared to missiles.

THere was never a problem with Cruises and Torps to begin with 8i mean, the Rokh was Caldaris most powerful ship, and it uses gunnery)


Actually Sidus, minmatar need sick heaps of gunnery skills to compensate for shooting in fall-off, tracking, lack of range/dps, etc. Far more than a missile guy has to contend with.

I fly both Minmatar and Caldari and when I want to be lazy and cruise right through missions with no effort, I fly caldari missile boats(with much less sp mind you). When I want a challenge and don't mind paying for structure damage repairs and warping out every now and again, I fly minmatar(with much MORE dedicated sp mind).

Not one pro missile person here has a leg to stand on compared to Minmatar in doing L4 missions. Caldari missile boats have been easy pve mode for some time and ccp are just balancing it out.

Congrats to ccp tbhRolling Eyes


Thing is once you got those skills trained a minmatar boat will always outperform any caldari boat vs the right enemies due it its far higher DPS.

The ideal PvE setup will be Mixing Amarr and Gallente battleships for a player with good drone skills , good gunnery and good energy weapon skills , armourtanking has to be okish ofcourse but still.

Void Khan
Posted - 2008.11.07 00:12:00 - [69]
 

The rats got really good at whining, and voila, missiles were nerfed. There's nothing wrong with it, they deserve a fair fight too.

Marine HK4861
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.11.07 00:22:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Elhina Novae

Better adapt then. I will use 3 x Warhead Rigor Catalyst I rigs on my mission ravenSmile


Wrong rig - you'll want Warhead Flare Catalysts for the increased explosion velocity, decreasing explosion radius won't help that much.

Of course that depends on what exactly they do to the damage equation...

Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.11.07 00:48:00 - [71]
 

Well at least for PvE, the Cruise Raven is fine. I hopped on SiSi today with my CNR and I have Caldari BS V and all missile skills to level 4 and Missile Launcher Operation V (obviously for cruises) with T2 Standards and Rockets (working on Tech 2 HAMs currently)

Anyways, so on SiSi I ran a few missions. I was popping Sansha friggys for 90.9 dmg per Paradise cruise missile and the first volley would take them into structure and second volley finishes the job. I can post some screenies with I get home but I don't think thats all that far off from what they are doing now.

For PvP I can see the nerf come into play more. But I understand the devs reason for the change. How much of a change? Well I need to jump on Sisi again when I get home from work and try some PvP situations.

Or I'll just wait till the 11th. /shrug

Karl Luckner
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.07 00:49:00 - [72]
 

The reduced damage to smaller targets maybe a PvP necessaty. But what I don't understand is, why a goddamn NPC Battleship moving around gets a damage reduction.

Morgana Etoli
Posted - 2008.11.07 05:54:00 - [73]
 

Damn it Jim, I am a doctor, not a ship engineer, get Scotty to help! I'm givan er all I got captn, but she just won't put out any more!

Oh no, there it goes ... all my dps, whatever will I do?

Go on the forums an whine?

Or suck it up an drive on?

OMG, someone HURRY!!! Call a whambulance, the cruise raven is dying!

What we have here, is a challenge ...

With her "pleasure toy" held hard in hand by its sword like pommel, she looked definately at the establishment . She inhaled deep an with mirth an bitterness in her voice, she yelled. "OK, all you unwashed heathens, the fun is over, LET THE SODOMY BEGIN!" With that she charged, only to be mowed down by the strange looking rubber ball things filled with ... oh god yuck!

WoW, that was silly ... Now where was I ...

dojocan81
Caminus Trux Germani
Ewoks
Posted - 2008.11.07 07:01:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: dojocan81 on 07/11/2008 07:17:02
Originally by: Marine HK4861
Originally by: Elhina Novae

Better adapt then. I will use 3 x Warhead Rigor Catalyst I rigs on my mission ravenSmile


Wrong rig - you'll want Warhead Flare Catalysts for the increased explosion velocity, decreasing explosion radius won't help that much.

Of course that depends on what exactly they do to the damage equation...


Increasing the explosion radius will result that targets =< cruiser recieve more damage per missile, so Warhead Rigor Catalyst rigs for small targets are better

Increasing the explosion velocity will result that targets > cruiser longer take full damage before they start to accelerate up to the point, where they can speed-tank missiles ... so take here Warhead Flare Catalysts rigs b/c they're increasing this point

so , Elhina Novae, is right since almost all lvl 4 missions contain more frigs and stuff < bc, fitting Rigor Catalyst rigs would be the better solution as Flare Catalysts rigs! but this is practically o/f

Marine HK4861
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.11.07 18:22:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: dojocan81

Increasing the explosion radius will result that targets =< cruiser recieve more damage per missile, so Warhead Rigor Catalyst rigs for small targets are better

Increasing the explosion velocity will result that targets > cruiser longer take full damage before they start to accelerate up to the point, where they can speed-tank missiles ... so take here Warhead Flare Catalysts rigs b/c they're increasing this point

so , Elhina Novae, is right since almost all lvl 4 missions contain more frigs and stuff < bc, fitting Rigor Catalyst rigs would be the better solution as Flare Catalysts rigs! but this is practically o/f


Elhina Novae was talking about using Precision cruise to take out elite cruisers. Precision Cruise + GMP to 5 gives a missile explosion radius of 150m, which is about the average size for a cruiser, thus reducing explosion radius won't improve the damage that much against cruisers because of the size/explosion radius damage cap of 100%.

With regard to your comment on explosion velocity on larger than cruiser sized ships, are you talking about the new damage formula or the old one? With the old one, damage is reduced by both speed and size not speed or size, thus if the size comparison is near max, altering the speed comparison is the better choice.


I'll stand by my choice of the explosion velocity rigs over the explosion radius rigs in this case - if I'm wrong when the Quantum Rise changes hit, then I'll fit the radius rigs instead.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2008.11.07 19:00:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/11/2008 19:00:37
It is blatantly apparent that CCP does not like how easily mission runners make ISK in LV 4 missions. Even though they made it that way . . .


Regardless of what needed to be balanced it is incredibly short sighted to not simply accept the fact that this was also a Nerf to mission runners that fly the most common mission running ship on the board. Period.


But all that being said it wont be all that bad with just a little adaptation on our part.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2008.11.07 20:09:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/11/2008 19:00:37
It is blatantly apparent that CCP does not like how easily mission runners make ISK in LV 4 missions. Even though they made it that way . . .


Regardless of what needed to be balanced it is incredibly short sighted to not simply accept the fact that this was also a Nerf to mission runners that fly the most common mission running ship on the board. Period.


But all that being said it wont be all that bad with just a little adaptation on our part.


The problem is, if they do not like that missions can be made easy, why nerf ship!? Make the mission harder, its so much easier and sensible

Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.11.07 21:17:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/11/2008 19:00:37
It is blatantly apparent that CCP does not like how easily mission runners make ISK in LV 4 missions. Even though they made it that way . . .


Regardless of what needed to be balanced it is incredibly short sighted to not simply accept the fact that this was also a Nerf to mission runners that fly the most common mission running ship on the board. Period.


But all that being said it wont be all that bad with just a little adaptation on our part.


I don't think you guys read my post...

Missions are just as easy now then they were before. I was still tearing through ships in my CNR on SiSi. The change was barely noticible in PvE. Its PvP that the change becomes more apparent.

Ghengis Tia
Posted - 2008.11.07 21:23:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Elhina Novae
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Elhina Novae

Warhead Rigor Catalyst seems to be a problem solver also?




I have an experiment fit which I will use when the patch is launched using 2 x Warhead Rigor Catalyst I, and on friday Cruise Missile Launcher V will start being trained.

[

(Laughing


I currently have 3 WRCI's on my CNR, cruisers - 2 volleys, destroyers - instapop.

The nerf may slow this down a bit but with 2 Pithi Small SB's, the cap is of no concern. I've always thought the XL SB + 3 CCCI's is overtanking anyway.


Bootleg Greg
Minmatar
Death on Sight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
Posted - 2008.11.07 21:29:00 - [80]
 

Ahhh, another missiles nerf, I love it. It doesn't mean much, a battleship reduced to only doing decent damage (without support modules) to other battleships. Mission running won't change, train drone interface V, sport some T2 mediums and you should be fine. Other than that, a Raven will still probably be able to kill a HAC relatively easy, with a good setup still struggle on command ships, and still be on par with battleships, so nothing has really changed. The old gank raven with stabs/BCU died with HIC infinite point, so what's the big deal, solo ganking is dead for the most part, so the chance that you get stuck in a 1v1 scenario and take the full affect of the nerf is slim. Just adapt the playing style, like we always have.

I have been playing for 4+ years, 2 years dedicated raven, 2 years minmatar.

I haven't been too active lately, you know how it is, on and off breaks.

This is just my opinion on it, I am not refuting anyone, so no need to flame, hehe.

Bootleg

Ghengis Tia
Posted - 2008.11.07 21:39:00 - [81]
 

Flying Minmatar BS in missions will prepare you for any other race's BS nerf, that's for sure.

You really can't appreciate the slowness of running missions until you try large arty, as my 'Phoon and Mael will attest. More of an art form, actually.


hybridundertaker
Amarr
coracao ardente
Posted - 2008.11.07 22:52:00 - [82]
 

raven was overpowered for pve compared to other races.

was about time ccp fixed it imo


mad27k
Posted - 2008.11.07 23:44:00 - [83]
 

haha adapt or die farmer scum :P

Glassback
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.11.08 00:06:00 - [84]
 

I've tried missions using my Cruise CNR and can't see any difference.

G.


Hyveres
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.11.08 01:01:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Hyveres on 08/11/2008 01:01:06
Originally by: hybridundertaker
raven was overpowered for pve compared to other races.

was about time ccp fixed it imo


Yes cause we all know that ravens , have around half the DPS of Amarr battleships vs facing bloodraiders or sansha.

While gallente can put out a mean sentryboat that tears through gurista and serpentis at a higher rate than we can. There is a reason why the top missionboat for most circumstances(gurista and angels as the exception) is a laserboat.
Referring to the nightmare ofc.

The only downside is ofcourse the ammount of SP it takes to fly it.

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2008.11.08 02:54:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: mad27k
haha adapt or die farmer scum :P


Rolling Eyes

You realise this also makes the Raven even more bad at PvP then it is now?

So quit acting like a fool. The missile cahanges now is not good, large missiles are dead for anything other then POS.

Joss Sparq
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.08 08:48:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: fuxinos
Oh yea, now a Abaddon can reduce your Torpdamage by 50% with only going 300m/s.

Then just slow it down - or have someone else slow it down for you - perhaps?

Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.11.08 08:55:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Joss Sparq
Originally by: fuxinos
Oh yea, now a Abaddon can reduce your Torpdamage by 50% with only going 300m/s.

Then just slow it down - or have someone else slow it down for you - perhaps?



Just slow it down? Clearly that's a job for someone else given the Raven's already overtaxed mid slots. You only get six of em and one of them is almost certainly going to be a MWD and at least four are tank. That leaves you exactly one mid slot. Given the gigantic explosion radius of the torpedo, most would opt for a target painter so they might actually get a number approaching that on paper DPS. Some people opt for a point. Given that the torp raven tends to fair poorly at the 13km and under range, few raven pilots fit a webber.

But, it is the eternal Caldari problem. The need to cram tank modules in the mid slots combined with a (relatively) small number of slots means sacrifies have to be made.

That being said, it's still frustrating that missile users have no real options to work with other than rigs, skills and implants to deal with the dilema. If maneuver made any sort of difference on the figures and/or if there were mid and low slot modules to increase the missile velocity/explosion velocity there would be no problem at all. As it stands this equates to awesome tracking (at point blank range) and wretched tracking once you move beyond about 10km.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2008.11.08 10:28:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Cloora
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/11/2008 19:00:37
It is blatantly apparent that CCP does not like how easily mission runners make ISK in LV 4 missions. Even though they made it that way . . .


Regardless of what needed to be balanced it is incredibly short sighted to not simply accept the fact that this was also a Nerf to mission runners that fly the most common mission running ship on the board. Period.


But all that being said it wont be all that bad with just a little adaptation on our part.


I don't think you guys read my post...

Missions are just as easy now then they were before. I was still tearing through ships in my CNR on SiSi. The change was barely noticible in PvE. Its PvP that the change becomes more apparent.


I read your post... still, I've been training up for a Nighthawk anyway. Now I'm just wondering if the weapon grouping will make missiles effectively immune to NPC defenders now. If so, this whole thing could turn out to be a boost, not a nerf.

vanBuskirk
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.08 10:37:00 - [90]
 

Regarding Raven PvE; one problem with it is that the standard cookie-cutter setup (6 cruise, 2 whatever, XL SB and SBA, 4 hardeners, 2x BCU, 2x PDS and DCU) is extremely tight on CPU even using named modules where one is not using t2. That means that the two spare highslots end up being filled with tiny little guns; something like dual light lasers or 75mm gatling rails.

I will probably be trying something a bit different once the patch hits. Something like dropping to a large SB and using the spare CPU to fit a pair of 650mm artillery, for example. That ought to take care of the cruisers, and even frigates in some missions where the frigs start off a long way away.

If tracking turns out to be an issue, maybe even medium AC would be useful, especially in missions where the rats like to get close. But frankly, I haven't used autocannons much.

Use whatever works! For example, for one specific mission that involves a lot of demolition that is sometimes worthwhile (Duo of Death) I use a heavy beam laser Dominix. Saves on ammo, if nothing else.



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