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Makko Gray
Pheno-Tech Industries
Crimson Wings.
Posted - 2008.10.29 23:14:00 - [211]
 

Seems to me that gate campers should be expected to adopt different tactics for different ships. What could make things interesting is maybe giving drones the ability to patrol between 2 points such as 2 ships or a ship and can. Maybe then you could have a hic and a couple of interceptors all with drones patrolling between them trying to bump the covert ops out of cloak.

Either way - the more clever and sneaky you have to be the more fun it could be. It does make sense though that a blockade runner should be next to impossible for a solo player to catch, as that is it's purpose in life. It should take teamwork and tactics to catch a ship that specialises in not being caught.

Lynn Yi
Minmatar
Revered Mining Corp
CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.29 23:29:00 - [212]
 

Great idea in theory... except for one little thing... the whole cloaked while in warp business is a tad bit broken. Its a bit stupid that you have to come uncloaked in order to cloak again and warp away. I've discovered through experience, that you can very easily be caught because of this. When you switch, you show up for an instant on the tactical layout, and when you cloak again, you're last location is visible. And if they're heavy interdictor has a MWD, and it very likely will, it will be on top of you with its drones out before you get anywhere at all. So giving T2 transports the ability to warp while cloaked does no good if they have to uncloak to do it. Why gate campers are constantly being given more tools than those who are trying to escape them seems almost intentional, as if CCP is cheering for the badguys and making it as easy for them as possible to exploit your mission runners and industrialist. The heavy interdictor has made this game less than fun for everyone except gate campers since its debut. This lack of balance is in desperate need of review.
--
Lynn Yi

Abrazzar
Posted - 2008.10.29 23:36:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Lynn Yi
Great idea in theory... except for one little thing... the whole cloaked while in warp business is a tad bit broken. Its a bit stupid that you have to come uncloaked in order to cloak again and warp away. I've discovered through experience, that you can very easily be caught because of this. When you switch, you show up for an instant on the tactical layout, and when you cloak again, you're last location is visible. And if they're heavy interdictor has a MWD, and it very likely will, it will be on top of you with its drones out before you get anywhere at all. So giving T2 transports the ability to warp while cloaked does no good if they have to uncloak to do it. Why gate campers are constantly being given more tools than those who are trying to escape them seems almost intentional, as if CCP is cheering for the badguys and making it as easy for them as possible to exploit your mission runners and industrialist. The heavy interdictor has made this game less than fun for everyone except gate campers since its debut. This lack of balance is in desperate need of review.
--
Lynn Yi

If you don't know how to use a covops cloak properly to run through a gatecamp, you deserve to die. The one and only pvp skill a carebear needs to know is how to GTFO. It's not that difficult.

Hint: It involves a MWD burst the moment before you cloak to have your last known position not being the position you are in.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.10.30 00:06:00 - [214]
 

Nice changes! GJ to whoever thought these up - but I have to admit that it doesn't make up for the rest of the changes. ;-)

-Liang

Selexim
BLIND VENGENCE
Posted - 2008.10.30 00:18:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Lili Lu
Originally by: Tabare Vazquez
The Crane has been given five more powergrid on sisi.


Rolling Eyes Do the other races get any buff to compensate for their weaknesses? Did it lose any shield tanking advantages it presently has? Wait don't tell me, probably not. Only Caldari gets buffed.

Meanwhile, Pilgrim is crap. Arty still is crap.

Hey while your at it CCP why not just buff all Caldari ships some more. Already often best in class, but not totally. Let's go for totally. Being the most prevalent race of ships is not enough. We should all fly Caldari.


Are you... comparing the crane to a pilgrim?

Pilgrim = crap? then you sir, are flying it wrong.

Caldari best in class? are you mad? The only class where Caldari win hands down is the Recons.

the crane has been the ONLY blockade runner that has been sub par when compared to all the others. Every other BR has been better than the crane till now. Now, they are about even in my books.


FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2008.10.30 00:22:00 - [216]
 

Excellent changes.

Lynn Yi
Minmatar
Revered Mining Corp
CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.30 00:28:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar

If you don't know how to use a covops cloak properly to run through a gatecamp, you deserve to die. The one and only pvp skill a carebear needs to know is how to GTFO. It's not that difficult.

Hint: It involves a MWD burst the moment before you cloak to have your last known position not being the position you are in.


Well aware of how to use it, but a MWD will not always fit on one's setup (which others were complaining about as well on their t2 industrials). And that's not the point. You shouldn't have to cheat and use a MWD burst before re-applying the cloak. This applies not just to covert ops, but to any cloak. The cloak serves no purpose when they know exactly where you are.

I'm not here to make judgments as to who should or should not die. I'm discussing game mechanics, not egos.

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.30 00:44:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Esmenet on 30/10/2008 00:45:31
Originally by: Signati

Anyone who says a bubble wont catch them now tho... wrong. Ive seen Cov ops frigs get killed in large bubbles because they couldn't get out before getting found. a BR is gonna be easier to find thats for sure.


Once in a blue moon yes. I've never lost my cov ops frig, and have gone through lots of gatecamps with up to 100ish people and even some with multiple large bubbles anchored. Not that invulnerable haulers will make that much difference in a place were we already got jumpcapable ships.

Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
Posted - 2008.10.30 02:16:00 - [219]
 

C-c-c-cloaking haulers?

BRs using BO portals: good.
DST love: good, though the ships are still going to be slower than molasses, which makes them rather poor at getting away.
BRs with Covops Cloaks: not sure, but it means I'd better start making Proto Cloak BPCs.

I hope this does not mean that BRs will lose their current agility though.
Crane +5 PG: MWD at last for the thing.

As for the Skiff, it's always been a niche boat. So goes Morphite, so goes the Skiff.

The Procurer has one use: parts for Skiffs. I have known one person, ever, to use a Procurer for it's intended purpose of mining. This is probably because a Frigate V pilot can mine more in their racial mining frig with T2 lasers and an MLU I, barring Barge IV/V and full T2 kit on the Procurer. I wish I was kidding. However, this is mostly just because of the way the barges work: Bigger = Better, and if you have the skills to use a specialized one, you're probably already in an Exhumer.

As for the Mack, I was hoping for a bit more than 10 CPU, at least boost it to 200 base (198 base just looks weird). It's fitting a whole second 66 CPU turret over the Skiff with identical fittings elsewhere, it's CPU should reflect this. However, thank you for at least giving us the choice between a moderate tank and good yield or great yield and no tank, without needing an implant. That's something at least.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2008.10.30 03:18:00 - [220]
 

All I gotta say about the Covert Ops vs the Pirate whine, it sounds very familiar to the "Shut up and deal with it" carebears got when the HIC came out.

Good changes CCP.

Relatyve Mynd
Posted - 2008.10.30 03:24:00 - [221]
 

Edited by: Relatyve Mynd on 30/10/2008 03:28:55
Edited by: Relatyve Mynd on 30/10/2008 03:26:34
Originally by: concerning mastodons/bustards
With 3 midslots, maxskills in EFT shows:
x3LSE 2's-->42.3k EFT hp

with kinetic and explosive rigs you get:
49.6k EFT hp

However, fitting an Invuln 2 I get:
x2 LSE 2's, x1 invul 2-->45.k

and rigged we get:
51.7k EFT hp

The outcome remains the same if you use defense field extenders: the invul field setups outperform the x3 LSE setups.


The DST changes would allow them to have the pg to fit 3x LSE instead of x2 LSE as it is now. Except x3 LSE is fail compared to x2 LSE and a hardener.

tl;dr

the DST changes do not actually make these ships more survivable.

Chomapuraku
Caldari
Carinae's Workshop
Posted - 2008.10.30 05:01:00 - [222]
 

Edited by: Chomapuraku on 30/10/2008 05:06:09
i already love flying the crane, and this is just icing on the cake. no fitting mods, so i can fit an mwd, cloak, ecm, and two nanos in the lows (with my two agility rigs ugh) AND a cov-ops cloak AND use blackops gates?

hot damn, this sounds too good to be true. and if the only balancing is to remove the useless tanking bonus and the rarely-useful WCS bonus, i think we might be facing some balance issues here. insane align time, HAC resistance package, cruiser-sized buffer, cov-ops cloak, can be fit without compromise or fitting mods, decent cargo, black-ops portal capability.... a little excesive if you ask me.

i'd say for the sake of balance, cut their resistance bonuses to marauder level, give them no additional HP over their t1 counterparts, and gimp their align time to t1 levels (maybe a little shorter). that way, someone that's quick to approach them with a swarm of drones has a chance of bumping and decloaking them before they warp off, when in low-sec.

after all, if stealth is their new survival method, then having ANY of their tanking bonuses make it a split role. it's kinda like how nano pilots can fit for insane speed AND rely on a large extender and their resistance package to buffer-tank the little damage they receive. speed-tankers should take reduced damage from speed without being able to rep, buffer or recharge, and stealth tankers should tank solely from that cov ops cloak and stealthy tactics without a buffer

Aki Achura
Posted - 2008.10.30 06:56:00 - [223]
 

Overall I like the changes. Eve has always been a thinking person's game, and occasionally having to reconfigure our tactics keeps things from stagnating. I find it amazing that so many of my "hard core" brethren are screaming so loudly; as someone mentioned earlier "the sky is not falling."

As we all know "carebears" do need some extra love, they are the backbone of Eve. If they lose interest then the pirates can only play with themselves (no pun intended) and the vaunted "pvp elite" will have no ships to fly. So let's keep the industrial-minded folk engaged in the game and if one or two more ships get past our gate camps so be it.

Along that train of thought why not give the Skiff the same kind of love you just gave the BR's. True ninja mining with a cloaked skiff, extra high slot, no turret. Negligible impact due to only one strip miner, but allowing miners to experience a bit more of sense of adventure.

Might put more players into low-sec and null-sec, and being the highly intelligent, hardcore, players that we are, we can then invent new ways to get at them. Win/win I think.

Amarr Holymight
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.10.30 07:03:00 - [224]
 

The DST bonus sounds wrong active shield tanking bonus mixed with a passive shield tanking bonus it should have another cargo bonus so it can fulfil it's role as the largest sub cap cargo ship, instead of the Itty V.

Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
Posted - 2008.10.30 08:33:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: Mika Meroko on 30/10/2008 08:34:24
no worries,

I believe the devs arent gonna be affected by arguments that insults other people (Carebear, caldari, blah blah...)


as for BR using covet op cloaks...background story hmmm

well, they dont have weapons XD.. maybe they re-route more power to be able to support the field?


self-proclaimed <-(key)pvpers and their leet club... cant add anything that give them an handicap that they dont poo poo over.


(yes, for the record, the carebears been nerfed to hell and back already... IE: being probed now vs the old probing*)

but yeah, glad they are buffing it.

edit:

for those who whine, you should REALLY look at the speed/agility nerf thats coming before saying. "OMG, they be invincible"

Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Posted - 2008.10.30 11:06:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 30/10/2008 11:06:22
Originally by: Felysta Sandorn

Considering the only thing fast enough to decloak a ship that can warped cloaked before it warps is an Interceptor, a ship that can be instapopped by sentries, this makes lowsec hauling completely 100% safe. Considering these ships are already agile enough to fit all istabs and insta-warp, this change just makes them ridiculously overpowered...

Agreed. Question is , it is intended or only poor balancing ??
Cov-Op cloak is a good thing for 0.0 hauling where you can use bubbles and fast locking ships. In low-sec
it means a 99.99999% security guarantee.
How about downgrading CPU bonus of BRs for cov-op cloaks ? Scenario: if BR pilot really wants a cov-op cloak,
he has to sacrifice 2-3 low slots for cpu upgrades. This means no additional expander and no agility mods when using a cov-op.

For those complaining about whining pirates, guys it's a really though job today.

hybridundertaker
Amarr
coracao ardente
Posted - 2008.10.30 12:02:00 - [227]
 

nice change for black ops but in general its just another carebear victory...

Bado Sten
Minmatar
Republican Guard
Posted - 2008.10.30 12:57:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
All I gotta say about the Covert Ops vs the Pirate whine, it sounds very familiar to the "Shut up and deal with it" carebears got when the HIC came out.

Good changes CCP.



/thread winner!

Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente
Lysergic Spacetime Dimension
Posted - 2008.10.30 13:07:00 - [229]
 

Ive havent read through the entire thread so if someone has already said this then I apologise.

Would've been nice to see some drone bay capacity introduced on these. It's not like they don't have the space.
Other than that these changes seem ok in light of other nerfs that have been introduced.

Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente
Lysergic Spacetime Dimension
Posted - 2008.10.30 13:24:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: hybridundertaker
nice change for black ops but in general its just another carebear victory...


Ofc, pirates never move things about and never use blockade runners or DSTs. Right? Rolling Eyes

Sounds like another standard whine to me.....

Aarin Wrath
Caldari
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.30 13:41:00 - [231]
 

Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 30/10/2008 13:48:45
Originally by: Hugh Ruka

But I have a beef with the Procurer. It is outmined by Scythe, Osprey and Vexor with less training involved. All 3 ships tank and defend better too.

There is one option however, give the Procurer a large cargo bay, so it does not need to empty for longer time. 3000m3 or so will be enough. It can also double as a small transport. 20m3 drobne bay and 20mbit bandwith will also help ...


Actually yeah that is a very good idea. If the Proc had a larger cargo bay, and +1 WCS, good agility, ... it would be an excellent ninja miner.
(3k sounds pretty good to be honest)

EDIT: As suggested above, another way to boost the Proc could be to give it an extra high slot (non turret) so it can fit a cloak. Might be overpowered and such but I thought I would mention it.

Aarin Wrath
Caldari
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.30 13:46:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Bado Sten
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
All I gotta say about the Covert Ops vs the Pirate whine, it sounds very familiar to the "Shut up and deal with it" carebears got when the HIC came out.

Good changes CCP.



/thread winner!


yeah quoted for truth. I lol'd :)

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2008.10.30 14:07:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 30/10/2008 14:08:41

Originally by: Lynn Yi
Originally by: Abrazzar

If you don't know how to use a covops cloak properly to run through a gatecamp, you deserve to die. The one and only pvp skill a carebear needs to know is how to GTFO. It's not that difficult.

Hint: It involves a MWD burst the moment before you cloak to have your last known position not being the position you are in.


Well aware of how to use it, but a MWD will not always fit on one's setup (which others were complaining about as well on their t2 industrials). And that's not the point. You shouldn't have to cheat and use a MWD burst before re-applying the cloak. This applies not just to covert ops, but to any cloak. The cloak serves no purpose when they know exactly where you are.

I'm not here to make judgments as to who should or should not die. I'm discussing game mechanics, not egos.


Apparently I missed the memo that stated using a MWD on a transport was cheating. Or is it only cheating to put a MWD on a cloaking vessel? Laughing

If you are going to comment on the "proper" fitting for a covert ops class ship that will be used to get past gate camps, and the correct tactics for using them successfully, then you should make some small attempt at actually understanding them.


Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2008.10.30 15:13:00 - [234]
 

Wait, Blockade Runners arn't already hard enough to catch? Confused

Lili Lu
Posted - 2008.10.30 16:09:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Selexim
Originally by: Lili Lu


Rolling Eyes Do the other races get any buff to compensate for their weaknesses? Did it lose any shield tanking advantages it presently has? Wait don't tell me, probably not. Only Caldari gets buffed.

Meanwhile, Pilgrim is crap. Arty still is crap.

Hey while your at it CCP why not just buff all Caldari ships some more. Already often best in class, but not totally. Let's go for totally. Being the most prevalent race of ships is not enough. We should all fly Caldari.


Are you... comparing the crane to a pilgrim?

Pilgrim = crap? then you sir, are flying it wrong.

Caldari best in class? are you mad? The only class where Caldari win hands down is the Recons.

the crane has been the ONLY blockade runner that has been sub par when compared to all the others. Every other BR has been better than the crane till now. Now, they are about even in my books.




Rolling Eyes Ok do you read? I was not comparing the crane to a pilgrim. I was moaning over the fact that anytime there is a Caldari ship that has a problem the devs get right on fixing it.

The Pilgrim (btw show me your oodles of recent kills in it) is still tied with the Arazu for most useless recon. The Arazu is getting a little buff with the scrambler and mwd changes coming. Meanwhile the Pilgrim has had the nos nerf and the reduction in drone bandwidth hit it hard, and there is not any dev it seems considering giving it neut range instead of strength and a larger cargo hold for neuting. I have toons that can fly all the recons. Do you? The Falcon so outshines all the other recons if it weren't for the entirely different role for the Rapier CCP might as well delete the class from the game and just say Caldari gets a thing called an ew cruiser but noone else does. Oh btw a heavy web nerf is coming, and no talk of a buff to webbing on Minmatar recons, scratch the Rapier and Hugin.

Caldari has the only ew BS. The Raven is the best PVE BS. And, the Rokh is the best ranged sniper BS. For BC you have the Drake. No other BC can tank a level 4 and still deal enough damage to complete one because it would have to sacrifice so much grid to tank it wouldn't be able to use heavy enough guns.

For Cruisers the Blackbird is better than the other races ew tech 1 cruisers. Since the damp nerf there has been no buff on the damping ability of the Celestis class. However, when ecm was nerfed the devs came back very quickly with an over the top buff to the blackbird class ecm boats. The only other ew cruiser that is any good now is the Arbitrator. Ditto for EW frigs.

Cerb will be king of HACs when the speed nerf hits. Sacrilege will have no range option because javelin HAMs will have a worthless range bonus. It will be restricted to being a Diesecondmost. The Eagle beats the Munnin and Zealot for range by a long way. Not sure about the Ishtar being set up for sentry drone sniping, haven't tried that yet. However, your compatriot Zulupark thinks the Ishtar needs a nerf (as if the speed nerf will not hit it hard enough and it has always had a grid problem).

The Crow doesn't have to worry about tracking unlike many of the turret ceptors. There is a reason why it is the most prevalently seen ceptor.

I could go on. So you had one hair-pulling ship to fit. Can't have that. I say again to CCP. Do you want to have everyone flying Caldari? Could you not leave Caldari teh suk for some class of ships? Every other race has to endure this. And please, please pull your heads out of your collective arse and realize that noone with a brain wants to "plate" an "armor-tanking" blockade runner. Blockade runners want agility and speed which leaves the only meaningful tank a shield hp buffer for being shot before hitting warp.

The cov ops cloak is too much. Best suggestion i've seen in this thread is give BRs a cloaked speed boost like stealth bombers have w/ an improved cloak. Then shave the wcs buff to +1.

Charlie Luciano
The Administration
Cosa Nostra.
Posted - 2008.10.30 17:31:00 - [236]
 

Changes seem ok, however I can't help fearing that the changes to the blockade runners is more a way of getting easily away from the current issues with Black Ops and the fuel needed for them. It's been said again and again that Black Ops needs a boost, and I sure as hell hope you're not gonna start saying bring a blockade runner for Black Ops-stuff.

NightAngel
Posted - 2008.10.30 17:31:00 - [237]
 

i didnt read peoples posts.. 8 pages is to much crap

i did read the changes that might be happening and because its carebear changes its obviously will happen.. anyways.. my comments is why can a hauler warp cloaked yet a stealth bomber cant.. the hauler is more stealth then a stealth bomber, dont know about anyone else but to me thats ******ed.. and anyone who disagrees is clearly just a carebear so go F*** yourself anyways =)

night

Anig Browl
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.30 17:38:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Alz Shado

As for "Those other Industrial ships?" the only one that interests me is the mythological Minifreighter. The Orca is NOT it.
...
Transport ships IV, Freighters III required.



Well, you can fly an actual freighter for less than that - you need Advanced Spaceship Command I and Freighter I. I guess you could trade ASC for Transports (which seems a much more appropriate skill requirement for freighters anyway).

Quote:
It's not that hard. It shouldn't take 5 years to put these numbers into the database, do a 75% reduction on a freighter model, and slap a texture on it.


True that. I think CCP worry more about how the introduction of a new ship rebalances the game economy etc., which isn't really predictable and which doesn't show up on SiSi very well because people don't play to win there, just to experiment and have fun.

Having said that, I'm definitely considering the Orca as a hauling/support vessel and have only peripheral interest in mining with it. A version with a new texture, minus the mining bonuses and with slightly increased cargo/resists/whatever would be awesome, but I can still see a lot of potential for the ship as-is.

I predict right now you'll see a surprising number of them in low and even nullsec. Hauling, pirate support, battlefield logistics...

Dav Varan
Posted - 2008.10.30 17:44:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Lili Lu

Massive Ill-informed off topic ramble



The point in increasing the grid on a crane is so it can fit a mwd which will become a pre-req for the kind of work the ship is being steered towards.

You can't currently fit mwd to a crane without completelly gimping the rest of the setup a problem that no other blockade runner suffers from.

Anig Browl
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.30 17:49:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: NightAngel
my comments is why can a hauler warp cloaked yet a stealth bomber cant.. the hauler is more stealth then a stealth bomber, dont know about anyone else but to me thats ******ed..


Speaking as a hauler that often uses a proto cloak already, I completely agree.

Of course I like the new toys being offered, but something is Very Wrong with the stealth bomber. OK, you can fly at full speed while cloaked etc., so if you're smart the only time you appear in people's overviews is from 150km as you decloak and warp after dropping your payload of doom, but still...and as always, bombs = too expensive to be useful.




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