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Kirja
R.U.S.H
Red Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.23 15:29:00 - [31]
 

Don't speak English... F1!

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2008.10.23 15:48:00 - [32]
 

Silly question, but if a defender missile does not do enough damage to a stack to remove a missile, is the stack's damage still reduced?

Shadow's Caress
Lone Sword Production
Posted - 2008.10.23 15:51:00 - [33]
 

As it stands, it seems like the grouped weapons all effectively fire at the same time. That's great and all, but is there any way we can group them and have them fire sequentially in even intervals? This would do wonders for capacitor efficiency on some guns as well as giving the missile users some chance to penetrate smartbombs.

jbob2000
Gallente
Degenerate...
Posted - 2008.10.23 15:59:00 - [34]
 

Why couldn't weapon grouping be a simple hot key hash? I was beginning to wonder why this was listed as a key feature in the new expansion when it should be something extremely simple. You've made this system far too complex. All it needs to do is allow us to fire all 8 guns with 1 key. That's it. I don't really need to use the rest of the F2-F8 keys cause i have F9-F11 for MWD, Reps, drones, etc.

I foresee many problems with this system.

IR Scoutar
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.10.23 16:06:00 - [35]
 

Let me be a bastard and ilustrate how this should be handled UI wise

  • First we make a new button that could look like this :

  • Link to Chribbas wonderful service
    please excuse the horrible shoop but im not designing the UI for you guys ... Wink make it look like um a chain or something

  • Then we proceed with :

  • Giving the button the rightclick option of "Enter Grouping mode"

  • Next folows the anti RSI function of convenience

  • As you already stated weapons that arnt of the same type cannot be grouped together.
    That is why at the click of this button all those High slot modules should be grouped together into their possible groups.
    This could then be indicated on this button by a color and/or form change
    An aditional click on this button should unlink all High slot modules and set the icon back to its original state

  • Extra merrit section :

  • Do not just shuffle all modules into 1 icon and give it the number of modules underneth it
    Leave all modules inplace but add the number of the GROUP they belong to (facilitating thermodynamics monitoring and i want to see my gun mentality)

    similarly have the ui respond to the standard F button layout
    e.g. guns from f1-f6 neuts f7-f8
    any f button from f1 to f6 could then activate the weapon group (remember unlinking is just 1 click away and manual linking is still possible) and f7 to f8 activate the neut group

    As an extra extra bonus weapon groups could then be dragged over to switch place with the lesser ones in 1 go instead of multiple
    e.g. f1-f6 goes 2 up while f7-f8 goes all the way down with the simple hold and drag of 1 item of a group (visualy you see all of them going of course)

    Extra extra extra tripple gold star merrit badge :
    Weapon staggerd activation available in the new buttons rightclick menu
    and other cool stuff

    so much for the UI
    feel free to use this idea i declare it open source Razz
    ------------------------


    Missiles:
    should never be of the im a giant missile type
    thats just not right in so many ways

    IR Scoutar
    Caldari
    State War Academy
    Posted - 2008.10.23 16:09:00 - [36]
     

    Originally by: jbob2000
    Why couldn't weapon grouping be a simple hot key hash? I was beginning to wonder why this was listed as a key feature in the new expansion when it should be something extremely simple. You've made this system far too complex. All it needs to do is allow us to fire all 8 guns with 1 key. That's it. I don't really need to use the rest of the F2-F8 keys cause i have F9-F11 for MWD, Reps, drones, etc.

    I foresee many problems with this system.


    because instead of doing an UI fix they went ahead and overengineerd it so its a background feature reducing calls and stuffs visualy represented with the option to group weps together Very Happy

    Dmian
    Gallente
    Gallenterrorisme
    Posted - 2008.10.23 16:32:00 - [37]
     

    Two simple questions:

    -Can you group weapons at the Fitting screen? (like Shift-drag&dropping one weapon over the other or something like that)

    -Will there be a "Right-button > Ungroup all weapons" option?

    Thanks. Great work! Very Happy

    TimGascoigne
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Posted - 2008.10.23 16:35:00 - [38]
     

    Edited by: TimGascoigne on 23/10/2008 16:34:51
    Twisted EvilEvil or Very Mad==> CCP me needs this in game now!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <==Evil or Very MadTwisted Evil

    royal killer
    Amarr
    Shadows Of The Federation
    Posted - 2008.10.23 16:49:00 - [39]
     

    Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
    (I am a misunderstood genius)


    Oh god that made me laugh so hardLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

    LoKesh
    Amarr
    Nex Exercitus
    Posted - 2008.10.23 17:00:00 - [40]
     

    Great idea!

    The blog states that exceptional hits (wrecking, etc) will be handled separately. However, the way you describe the overall system seems to imply that normal hit and damage calculations will be performed together. I say this because you are treating multiple missiles as one entity and you mention this will reduce needed calculations.

    Does this mean when I fire 8 guns I will either hit with all 8 or miss with all 8? (and that they'll all do the same base damage?)

    That seems like an important detail to know. High RoF weapons won't care much, but if you're dealing with a long range weapon that only fires every 10 seconds this is something to think about.


    Nekopyat
    Posted - 2008.10.23 17:33:00 - [41]
     

    Originally by: Hugh Ruka
    wait ... so instead of an UI only feature you created something that has more limitations than usability ?

    how is that good ?


    The 'UI' version of this was discussed for a while but the developers came back saying that it was resource prohibitive, meaning if they implemented it you would get more lag and server load.

    With this solution, they gave the basic functionality AND reduced the number of client/server & db calls, which speeds things up. Less lag is good.

    Aarin Wrath
    Caldari
    East Khanid Trading
    Khanid Trade Syndicate
    Posted - 2008.10.23 17:52:00 - [42]
     

    Originally by: LoKesh
    Great idea!

    The blog states that exceptional hits (wrecking, etc) will be handled separately. However, the way you describe the overall system seems to imply that normal hit and damage calculations will be performed together. I say this because you are treating multiple missiles as one entity and you mention this will reduce needed calculations.

    Does this mean when I fire 8 guns I will either hit with all 8 or miss with all 8? (and that they'll all do the same base damage?)

    That seems like an important detail to know. High RoF weapons won't care much, but if you're dealing with a long range weapon that only fires every 10 seconds this is something to think about.




    Nope. You will make one function call to fire guns. The server then works out the damage calculations for each gun all at once.

    So instead of (for eight turrets):

    1. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage
    2. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage
    3. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage
    4. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage
    5. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage
    6. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage
    7. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage
    8. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage

    Its:

    1.
    Fire turret x 8
    -> calculate hits for eight distinct guns
    -> calculate damage for eight distinct guns

    At least that is my understanding.

    They are grouping the function calls on the server to increase performance. Make Sense?

    Matthew
    Caldari
    BloodStar Technologies
    Posted - 2008.10.23 18:27:00 - [43]
     

    Originally by: Aarin Wrath
    Its:

    1.
    Fire turret x 8
    -> calculate hits for eight distinct guns
    -> calculate damage for eight distinct guns

    At least that is my understanding.

    They are grouping the function calls on the server to increase performance. Make Sense?


    I would expect there is a further performance increase beyond that. With the un-grouped method, each turret's damage would actually be applied to the target ship separately, requiring 8x resistance calculations, attribute modifications, damage notifications to the target client etc.

    With grouping, I would assume that they would aggregate up the damage from each individual gun in the group, and apply the total as a single hit to the target, requiring only 1x resistance calculation etc.

    jbob2000
    Gallente
    Degenerate...
    Posted - 2008.10.23 18:31:00 - [44]
     

    Originally by: Aarin Wrath

    1.
    Fire turret x 8
    -> calculate hits for eight distinct guns
    -> calculate damage for eight distinct guns



    In your example, nothing has changed, they still have to calculate the damage for eight guns. Unless I am the one who misunderstood.

    With this system though, does 1x wrecking mean that all the other guns are wrecking shots as well? Do some guns miss when grouped and others not miss?

    Aarin Wrath
    Caldari
    East Khanid Trading
    Khanid Trade Syndicate
    Posted - 2008.10.23 18:31:00 - [45]
     

    Originally by: Matthew

    I would expect there is a further performance increase beyond that. With the un-grouped method, each turret's damage would actually be applied to the target ship separately, requiring 8x resistance calculations, attribute modifications, damage notifications to the target client etc.

    With grouping, I would assume that they would aggregate up the damage from each individual gun in the group, and apply the total as a single hit to the target, requiring only 1x resistance calculation etc.


    Wow yeah I diden't even think of that. That would definitely speed things up.

    Aarin Wrath
    Caldari
    East Khanid Trading
    Khanid Trade Syndicate
    Posted - 2008.10.23 18:33:00 - [46]
     

    Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 23/10/2008 18:37:22
    EDIT: Spelling

    Originally by: jbob2000


    In your example, nothing has changed, they still have to calculate the damage for eight guns. Unless I am the one who misunderstood.

    With this system though, does 1x wrecking mean that all the other guns are wrecking shots as well? Do some guns miss when grouped and others not miss?


    Yeah but they caculate all eight guns in one function call. Much faster.

    To give an analogy:
    Say you need to get toilet paper and some milk at the store.

    In the current system you would get in your car, drive to the store, buy milk, get back into the car, drive home. Get in the car again, drive to the store again, buy toilet paper, get back into the car again, drive home again.

    With grouping you would get into your car, drive to the store, buy milk, buy toilet paper, get back into your car, drive home.

    Make sense?

    And from the blog:
    Originally by: CCP Ytterbium

    How are the grouped weapons attributes calculated?
    The system was designed to retain balance between grouped and individual weapons. For example, damage multiplier and capacitor consumption will be properly multiplied depending on the number of grouped weapons, while falloff, tracking, range will remain the same. Hit dice is rolled separately for each module that is grouped while taking into account wrecking hits, so you won’t have a wrecking hit taking the summed up damage of all weapons (which would just be insane).



    jbob2000
    Gallente
    Degenerate...
    Posted - 2008.10.23 18:35:00 - [47]
     

    Originally by: Aarin Wrath

    Yeah but they caculate all eight guns in one function call. Much faster.

    And from the blog:
    Originally by: CCP Ytterbium

    How are the grouped weapons attributes calculated?
    The system was designed to retain balance between grouped and individual weapons. For example, damage multiplier and capacitor consumption will be properly multiplied depending on the number of grouped weapons, while falloff, tracking, range will remain the same. Hit dice is rolled separately for each module that is grouped while taking into account wrecking hits, so you won’t have a wrecking hit taking the summed up damage of all weapons (which would just be insane).





    Ahh ok, gotcha. Stupidly complex....

    El'essar Viocragh
    Minmatar
    Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
    Posted - 2008.10.23 18:40:00 - [48]
     

    Can different-by-name-but-otherwise-the-same weapons be stacked together?

    For example, 3 Domination 1400m Howitzers with 3 Republic Fleet 1400m Howitzers?

    jbob2000
    Gallente
    Degenerate...
    Posted - 2008.10.23 19:06:00 - [49]
     

    Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
    Can different-by-name-but-otherwise-the-same weapons be stacked together?

    For example, 3 Domination 1400m Howitzers with 3 Republic Fleet 1400m Howitzers?


    from the blog: "you cannot have a mixed group made of TI, TII and named/faction/deadspace variants at the same time"

    El'essar Viocragh
    Minmatar
    Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
    Posted - 2008.10.23 19:13:00 - [50]
     

    Also from the blog, they need to have the same stats for the calculations to work.
    These modules have the exact same stats.

    A mix of T1/named/T2/faction has different stats, these have different names but identical stats.

    Maren Maen
    Posted - 2008.10.23 20:02:00 - [51]
     

    Is there some reason this can't be applied to tanking modules as well (e.g., combining a therm armor hardener, em hardener, kinetic hardener into a one click operation)?

    Dav Varan
    Posted - 2008.10.23 20:07:00 - [52]
     

    Great stuff.

    Question

    If I have guns with the same stats but different names will I be able to stack them ?
    True Sansha / Dark Blood etc

    Request

    While your tinkering with the context menu can you please put the ammo list into some sort of order ( alphabetical would be nice ) hint.

    matarkhan
    Suprema Exstinctio
    Numerus Ruina.
    Posted - 2008.10.23 20:22:00 - [53]
     

    Edited by: matarkhan on 23/10/2008 20:22:54
    Quote:
    Why couldn't weapon grouping be a simple hot key hash? I was beginning to wonder why this was listed as a key feature in the new expansion when it should be something extremely simple. You've made this system far too complex. All it needs to do is allow us to fire all 8 guns with 1 key. That's it. I don't really need to use the rest of the F2-F8 keys cause i have F9-F11 for MWD, Reps, drones, etc.

    I foresee many problems with this system.


    ^this


    IMHO, I would rather see a system where the weapons weren't stacked, and wouldn't *have* to be identical.


    OneSock
    Crown Industries
    Posted - 2008.10.23 20:31:00 - [54]
     

    I may not use this simply due to cycle time and drone logic.

    If you F1-F8 a row of rails when rats pop you can be fairly sure one of the rails will be at the end of the cycle and can immediately be applied to a new target. This helps as drones will tend to follow your lead in their target selections.

    If all the rails were stacked you would have to wait for the entire stack to complete the cycle before you can reactive on a new target. By that time your drones will have made their own (Failmento) decision.


    Daminma2
    Perkone
    Posted - 2008.10.23 20:39:00 - [55]
     

    Originally by: matarkhan
    Edited by: matarkhan on 23/10/2008 20:22:54
    Quote:
    Why couldn't weapon grouping be a simple hot key hash? I was beginning to wonder why this was listed as a key feature in the new expansion when it should be something extremely simple. You've made this system far too complex. All it needs to do is allow us to fire all 8 guns with 1 key. That's it. I don't really need to use the rest of the F2-F8 keys cause i have F9-F11 for MWD, Reps, drones, etc.

    I foresee many problems with this system.


    ^this


    IMHO, I would rather see a system where the weapons weren't stacked, and wouldn't *have* to be identical.




    The idea of this is to reduce lag. The grouping is just a way to realize that and not to make our life easier.

    Vyktor Abyss
    The Abyss Corporation
    Posted - 2008.10.23 21:58:00 - [56]
     

    Sounds like an excellent development.

    Only questions I have are regarding Heat; When one gun explodes in the stack, how will you tell while they are all stacked?

    Say with 2 stacks of 4 guns, can you overload one stack only with one click as you would with individual turrets?

    Looking forward to new and improved alpha strikes, though you still need to look at blaster tracking if you intend to nerf webbers - cheers.

    Theqwert125
    Qwertian Enterprises
    Posted - 2008.10.23 22:01:00 - [57]
     

    For everyone whining about it's limitations: IT'S OPTIONAL!
    Use it if it works for you, and if it doesn't, don't.

    This is a server optimization cleverly disguised as a UI feature, NOT just a new shiny button to use.

    Also (from my understanding) since turret shots will be simultaneous with linking, they all have the same hit chance from the tracking formula, so it is only used once per volley. Then the die is rolled per turret.

    Like this:
    1x Ammo calculation
    1x Capacitor calculation
    1x Tracking calculation
    8x Hitchance/quality die roll calculations
    1x Damage aplication calculations

    Instead of 8x of each

    Gerard Deneth
    Caldari
    Pavlov Labs GmBH
    Independent Faction
    Posted - 2008.10.23 22:01:00 - [58]
     

    Originally by: OneSock
    I may not use this simply due to cycle time and drone logic.

    If you F1-F8 a row of rails when rats pop you can be fairly sure one of the rails will be at the end of the cycle and can immediately be applied to a new target. This helps as drones will tend to follow your lead in their target selections.

    If all the rails were stacked you would have to wait for the entire stack to complete the cycle before you can reactive on a new target. By that time your drones will have made their own (Failmento) decision.




    No-one says you have to group it into one big grouping of 8 guns. I'll probably split mine into two groups of 4 instead for flexibility.

    Nyphur
    Pillowsoft
    Posted - 2008.10.23 22:34:00 - [59]
     

    This was a nice overview of the new system, but there was a distinct lack of new information. I asked a few very important questions in a previous thread that went largely unanswered. It's been mentioned that the number of server calculations are being reduced by stacking guns and that the new supergun will be "equivalent" to the eight guns but it's very possible that something's been overlooked and the guns will not be equivalent. If I'm understanding this correctly, guns with a high refire time could end up with more variable (less consistent) damage and that's just one thing that needs to be examined. I gave more details in the post linked there.

    Rockstara
    Blue Republic
    Posted - 2008.10.24 00:12:00 - [60]
     

    Originally by: Nyphur
    This was a nice overview of the new system, but there was a distinct lack of new information. I asked a few very important questions in a previous thread that went largely unanswered. It's been mentioned that the number of server calculations are being reduced by stacking guns and that the new supergun will be "equivalent" to the eight guns but it's very possible that something's been overlooked and the guns will not be equivalent. If I'm understanding this correctly, guns with a high refire time could end up with more variable (less consistent) damage and that's just one thing that needs to be examined. I gave more details in the post linked there.


    no seems like they are thinking of most things. I'm sure something will come up in testing, but hey thats what testing is for. The hit calculation is only one in a long stream...read up
    Originally by: theqwert125
    For everyone whining about it's limitations: IT'S OPTIONAL!
    Use it if it works for you, and if it doesn't, don't.

    This is a server optimization cleverly disguised as a UI feature, NOT just a new shiny button to use.

    Also (from my understanding) since turret shots will be simultaneous with linking, they all have the same hit chance from the tracking formula, so it is only used once per volley. Then the die is rolled per turret.

    Like this:
    1x Ammo calculation
    1x Capacitor calculation
    1x Tracking calculation
    8x Hitchance/quality die roll calculations
    1x Damage aplication calculations

    Instead of 8x of each
    [\quote]

    ^^this...read the damn thread


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