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Shani Nerkata
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:14:00 - [2911]
 

Edited by: Shani Nerkata on 15/10/2008 02:16:07

Quote:
There‘s no way to spin it and we won‘t add insult to injury by trying to do so. It was a mistake on our part and for that we sincerely and humbly apologize.
So you don't keep any save of previous source code ?

I see 2 solutions :
1- you are a liar,
2- programmers are incompetent.

Both solutiosn afraid me.

ISIAM
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:15:00 - [2912]
 

*Beginning.

Betteroff Dead
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:16:00 - [2913]
 

Hey can you at least give the ability to train multiple skills in a row in exchange? This is a feature we have asked for since the beginning, and one I would like to see. So would my wife so I am not getting up from dinner to change that skill I forgot about. :)

Staberind
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:18:00 - [2914]
 

*End...

SZ Rota
Caldari
Esto Perpetua
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:18:00 - [2915]
 




Some specific responses to Torfi’s post calling this all a matter of miscommunication:


Lies. End of story about that. The explanation about miscommunication doesn’t even merit analysis.

A small note on your use of the word ‘several’ in saying some people have done this ghost training for several years now. It seems slight, but it’s a significant point to clarify it hasn’t been ‘several’ years, it’s been over half a decade. OVER HALF A DECADE you #$@#.

“We stand by our policy that if you want your character to progress in EVE, you should pay the subscription fee.” Torfi.

Yes, sure, great, we’re all agreed that this statement, taken out of context, makes complete sense. In any game, to progress, you pay a fee, you subscribe.

BUT THIS TOTALLY AVOIDS THE CENTRAL ISSUE.

I’ll repeat it for you.

Alts are basic the enjoyment of any mmorpg for most people. Eve is very, very different from most other mmorpgs, BUT, Eve is still an mmorpg, and exactly like other mmorpgs, Eve is full of players who use more than one character.

I don’t mean more than one character as in a main, and then a one hour made hauler alt, I mean a fully functional alt.

Most players in most mmorpgs play more than one character. Sure there are some players who play only one, but they don’t change the equation. Most players in mmorpgs, including Eve, play more than one character.

Other games charge you 15 dollars per month, and you can play a few characters.

CCP, blood sucking scammers they are, want us to pay a full subscription for each character.

What kind of a game expects you to pay a 30 dollars or 45 dollars or 60 dollars subscription fee each month in order to play more than one character? NONE, except for Eve.

Ghost training was NOT an exploit gaining people ‘free’ advancement.

Ghost training lowered the cost in a game where the system is already rigged to cheat players by giving them only ONE training slot per account, rigged to charge them 2x, 3x, 4x MORE THAN ANY OTHER MMORPG for the same number of playable toons most people have in other games.


Another way I’ve put it to people is this….

If you buy a car you expect it to have four wheels.

If, when you buy a car, they charge you extra for an all leather interior. That’s normal, that’s industry standard.

If, when you buy a car, the first two wheels are standard, but the third and forth wheels are extra, then you are being scammed, you are being cheated, you are being screwed, because that is NOT industry standard practice.

Charging a full subscription fee each of more than one character in Eve has always been, and is even more so now, a total scam.

The only reason people tolerate it, and bury themselves under blankets of denial, is they love the game so much and really really want access to the unique charm of the game. That charm only goes so far though. CCP has in the past and is now lieing to, and cheating their customers. Too much is too much.





10of10
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:20:00 - [2916]
 

Edited by: 10of10 on 15/10/2008 02:20:38
This was all planned at the Bob & Dev BBQ............

They didn't want those subscribers anyway.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:20:00 - [2917]
 

I posted the whole fiasco on my Blog, just for posterity reasons.

The Riff
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:22:00 - [2918]
 

Only one word to describe this CCP,

Insensitive

Neutral


Shar Tegral
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:25:00 - [2919]
 

I figured out why this thread is bugged though. With it accidentally hidden, eve search does not poll it for updates.

A little convenient, hunh?

James Marshalll
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:26:00 - [2920]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker
I posted the whole fiasco on my Blog, just for posterity reasons.


nice blog, the only thing I would change is to add in how the timing of this is very suspect considering they were just pushing the whole "Power of two" access deal right before announcing this change.

The Slayer
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:29:00 - [2921]
 

Hey I just had a thought, why was this not mentioned to or discussed by the CSM? Why were we not informed through the channels set up by yourself to allow two way communication to and from yourselves that this was going to happen? Why was this implemented suddenly and without warning?

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:29:00 - [2922]
 

I think the real issue at hand is that EVE has developed into a game that is largely driven by alt characters.

Especially scout alts, market alts, research alts, producer alts, cyno alts and capital alts.

Who would've thought a trend like multiple accounts powertraining towards one of those goals with as little effort/costs as possible would develop?
And many of those additional accounts going into semi-stasis after the monthly costs went up considerably (For european players it was down to as low as 8€, through buying GTC's overseas. I don't know about american players)?
Reducing costs on EVE accounts is also one aspect of powergaming.

Usage of alts should have been self-limiting right from the start.
But this is mostly from a game-balance point of view, which I doubt is the main reason for the change (unfortunately & sadly).

Deadly Hobbitses
Caldari
Furry Footed Felons
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:31:00 - [2923]
 

Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans
The bug that became a feature

On Monday, we released news that we are disabling „Ghost Training“, the ability to train characters on inactive accounts. This resulted in strong reactions from the community as many people were routinely making use of it. We explained the matter in more detail and pointed out that this had been a bug in the original game code. Those of us who were involved in the process of making the decision and communicating it to the community did not realize this bug had been so accepted as a feature that it was listed as such in our own documentation on our own website.

How can we not know what‘s in our own documentation? Well, to be frank, it was a case of insufficient communication on our part between various teams – a regrettable mistake and hard lesson to learn at the expense of the trust you‘ve placed in us. There‘s no way to spin it and we won‘t add insult to injury by trying to do so. It was a mistake on our part and for that we sincerely and humbly apologize.

Many would hope that in light of this we will decide not to cancel ghost training and keep it active as an option but we‘re cannot to do that. EVE is already one-of-a-kind in allowing players to progress their characters through offline skill training. We stand by our policy that if you want your character to progress in EVE, you should pay the subscription fee. The fact that so many people have been able to do so for several years was our own oversight. We know this change, and our misstep in telling you about it, has created some discontent and we hope that over time we can prove our committment to make EVE better than ever for you will be evident as you enjoy the fruits of our labor.

Torfi



Please Confirm or Deny that this change DOES give ample justification for the implementation of a skill queue given that it has removed what was perceived as the only roadblock.

N3mMy1
Gallente
Research and Cloning Services
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:34:00 - [2924]
 

The more I read the angrier I get Evil or Very Mad

Just bloody delete all chars that have not be active for the last 6 months will clear up alot of your DB.

So what if they lose stuff, it all belongs to CCP anyway.

The Avalanche of people offlining their accounts is due to the fact that CCP increase the prices of the GTC with the recent changes.

In the past 90day = 350million isk x 4 = 1.4 Billion a year
Now 60 days GTC = 510 Million isk x 6 = 3.06 Billion a year

Pretty dramatic increase in isk cost.

What ever said, CCP need money to keep runing and I am all for the changes. But now I will just be forced to cut down the number of accounts I run. Which is suspect is what you guys plan on doing anyway.

Those of us paying sub for alt accounts with isk are apparently unwanted or desired by CCP.

Grrh....

Erimisha
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:34:00 - [2925]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
I think the real issue at hand is that EVE has developed into a game that is largely driven by alt characters.

Especially scout alts, market alts, research alts, producer alts, cyno alts and capital alts.

Who would've thought a trend like multiple accounts powertraining towards one of those goals with as little effort/costs as possible would develop?
And many of those additional accounts going into semi-stasis after the monthly costs went up considerably (For european players it was down to as low as 8€, through buying GTC's overseas. I don't know about american players)?
Reducing costs on EVE accounts is also one aspect of powergaming.

Usage of alts should have been self-limiting right from the start.
But this is mostly from a game-balance point of view, which I doubt is the main reason for the change (unfortunately & sadly).



Let's see..

Power of 2..
Increase of starter character SPs complete with multiple L5 skills right off the bat
Power of 2 again..
and correct me if I'm wrong but
Power of 2 for a 3rd time (just recently)..

Yep can't imagine who'd have been pushing for more alts on alt accounts.. nosiree..

Betteroff Dead
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:36:00 - [2926]
 

Yeah, a skill queue would be a good addition to this bad deletion.

matarkhan
Suprema Exstinctio
Numerus Ruina.
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:40:00 - [2927]
 

Originally by: Erimisha

It was known.
It was promoted in official literature.
It was 'fixed' once already on the Chinese server but left alone here--INTENTIONALLY.

And you still call it a 'bug'?

Let me guess. You've recently gotten a pretty decent downturn in subscriptions of 2nd, 3rd and even 4th+ alt accounts right? Perhaps 30-90 days after the GTC "fix" that drove prices to ridiculous levels? All at a time of global economic instability.



^This.

CSM - completely uninvolved, obviously, or someone would have pointed out that:

a) you're lying to us about this being a bug

b) it's plainly obvious to anyone who can read (your own marketing materials) that you're lying to us about it being a bug

c) you've got no respect for your customers, or you wouldn't simply assume that they're all illiterate morons.

Keep ****ing on your customers, it's doing wonders for you. Do you know why you have so many ghosting accounts right now? It's because people can't afford GTCs for them anymore. If those accounts can't be ghosted, they'll most likely be canceled.

It's like you're afraid of a revenue stream, so you keep building dams in front of it.

Icelandic logic or something?

Bedrock
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:40:00 - [2928]
 

page 99 snipa

Xavier Holtzman
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:42:00 - [2929]
 

The funny thing is, if ccp would have come right out and said that they needed money, and then raised the subscription fee by $5 (or maybe even $10), I probably would have payed it and kept playing.

Betteroff Dead
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:43:00 - [2930]
 

Originally by: Xavier Holtzman
The funny thing is, if ccp would have come right out and said that they needed money, and then raised the subscription fee by $5 (or maybe even $10), I probably would have payed it and kept playing.


That will be next...

10of10
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:45:00 - [2931]
 

Originally by: Betteroff Dead
Originally by: Xavier Holtzman
The funny thing is, if ccp would have come right out and said that they needed money, and then raised the subscription fee by $5 (or maybe even $10), I probably would have payed it and kept playing.


That will be next...


Right after this master plan drops subscriber rates.... Yep

Dr Zakalwe
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:45:00 - [2932]
 

Or they could get rid of the fishtank in their office.

IR Scoutar
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:46:00 - [2933]
 

hmmm yes
based upon history and the way this was handled explained and "apologised" for
ive come to the decision that my main will NOT be renewed this week as originaly planed instead
and will remain that way baring some unforseen mayor owning up to mistakes from ccp

as for the lovely alt, that will run out on 03.12.2008 wich should let me whitness that thar winter expansion
if i like what im seeing by then i shall return if not
meh nobody will care
and i get to find out how well that thing outside my window is rendered Laughing

Circe Carpathia
Amarr
Sani Sabik
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:46:00 - [2934]
 

Well, after 5+ years of this. Training, going afk for a few months due to the game being boring or broke. It was always a nice FEATURE that was in eve. Guess since ive got 6 accounts inactive 1 going tomorrow, guess this is goodbye. 2 very known chars 80+ mil each. 2 60+ very known, and 2 industrial alts that were 60 and 80 mil. time to say goodbye. Been playing warhammer anyway. Much more fun, no blobs, no node crashes. and the game works. and they do what they say. They dont turn something that was in game forever into a bug that was just figured out 5+ years later.

Do u not understand, most of the people, myself included, take breaks cause we get bored and try other games. Guess what, we always come back and pay. Guess u will lose alot of people that do that. Oh well, guess having a client base of 2000 again will decrease the lag and be fun for most.




Betteroff Dead
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:53:00 - [2935]
 

Originally by: Circe Carpathia
Well, after 5+ years of this. Training, going afk for a few months due to the game being boring or broke. It was always a nice FEATURE that was in eve. Guess since ive got 6 accounts inactive 1 going tomorrow, guess this is goodbye. 2 very known chars 80+ mil each. 2 60+ very known, and 2 industrial alts that were 60 and 80 mil. time to say goodbye. Been playing warhammer anyway. Much more fun, no blobs, no node crashes. and the game works. and they do what they say. They dont turn something that was in game forever into a bug that was just figured out 5+ years later.

Do u not understand, most of the people, myself included, take breaks cause we get bored and try other games. Guess what, we always come back and pay. Guess u will lose alot of people that do that. Oh well, guess having a client base of 2000 again will decrease the lag and be fun for most.



Yep, keep coming back; unlike so many others which just get deleted off of my hard drive.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:54:00 - [2936]
 

Originally by: Circe Carpathia
Well, after 5+ years of this. Training, going afk for a few months due to the game being boring or broke. It was always a nice FEATURE that was in eve. Guess since ive got 6 accounts inactive 1 going tomorrow, guess this is goodbye. 2 very known chars 80+ mil each. 2 60+ very known, and 2 industrial alts that were 60 and 80 mil. time to say goodbye. Been playing warhammer anyway. Much more fun, no blobs, no node crashes. and the game works. and they do what they say. They dont turn something that was in game forever into a bug that was just figured out 5+ years later.

Do u not understand, most of the people, myself included, take breaks cause we get bored and try other games. Guess what, we always come back and pay. Guess u will lose alot of people that do that. Oh well, guess having a client base of 2000 again will decrease the lag and be fun for most.






Many of my friends are doing the same, many of them I actually helped to start EVE as complete noobs, and they are now have become excellently skilled, and really bloodthirsty Twisted Evil he he he. But, all joking aside, many have said that they would probably not renew when the subs expire, I am probably the only idiot who is thinking of staying and weathering this storm from CCP yet again.


Circe Carpathia
Amarr
Sani Sabik
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:55:00 - [2937]
 

Edited by: Circe Carpathia on 15/10/2008 02:56:33
Originally by: Betteroff Dead
Originally by: Circe Carpathia
Well, after 5+ years of this. Training, going afk for a few months due to the game being boring or broke. It was always a nice FEATURE that was in eve. Guess since ive got 6 accounts inactive 1 going tomorrow, guess this is goodbye. 2 very known chars 80+ mil each. 2 60+ very known, and 2 industrial alts that were 60 and 80 mil. time to say goodbye. Been playing warhammer anyway. Much more fun, no blobs, no node crashes. and the game works. and they do what they say. They dont turn something that was in game forever into a bug that was just figured out 5+ years later.

Do u not understand, most of the people, myself included, take breaks cause we get bored and try other games. Guess what, we always come back and pay. Guess u will lose alot of people that do that. Oh well, guess having a client base of 2000 again will decrease the lag and be fun for most.





Yep, keep coming back; unlike so many others which just get deleted off of my hard drive.


Who says im coming back now. This is done for me. They have ruined the game and ****ed the majority fo the player base off now. I wouldnt be surprised to see this as a 2003 client base within 6 months. 2000-5000 max players.

10of10
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:55:00 - [2938]
 

It is my understanding that a numbers cruncher convinced them that if less than 1/4 of their subscribers only revolts they will be able to compensate with the number of subscribers paying for accounts they will have to activate... So all you have to do is convince at least 1/4 of the subscribers to demand a reversal of this decision.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:59:00 - [2939]
 

Originally by: 10of10
It is my understanding that a numbers cruncher convinced them that if less than 1/4 of their subscribers only revolts they will be able to compensate with the number of subscribers paying for accounts they will have to activate... So all you have to do is convince at least 1/4 of the subscribers to demand a reversal of this decision.


What? Where the hell is that coming from? I mean there was no slightest doubt that CCP is doing it for money, but as others have said, if they came out and said "We need money guys, we will increase subs by $5 US a month for 6 months to weather the financial ****storm that is overcoming Icelandic economy" I would not have thought twice about it. Take the extra 5 buks a month for 6 months, glad to be of help.

But to be so freaking underhanded, and so sneaky, and so mean spirited as to assume that we are all idiots, is really an insult.

Lord Timelord
GETCO
Waterboard
Posted - 2008.10.15 03:02:00 - [2940]
 

Edited by: Lord Timelord on 15/10/2008 03:04:55
I am still waiting on a "Skill Que" system to be developed. Make it only usable on paying accounts, and allow the skills to be qued up as long as the account is in active status.

While you are at it... since I am PAYING for the account, it makes no damn difference if I change my skill training in game or from a website. You are still getting my money. So also make skill training changes via the website a reality as well!

Example: Someone pays for their subscription in Six Month Blocks. You could Que up skills all the way upto Six Months. When/If the account goes inactive, the characters skilltraining stops at the next server downtime.

Now get your programmers to work, and get this "demanded since the darn game came out" FEATURE into the darn game ASAP!


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