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Karina Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:21:00 - [1741]
 

Originally by: Adam Slysphere
Originally by: Gunner
Originally by: Adam Slysphere
Originally by: Dlightfull
Eve was the only decent MMO i could play, coz there is the possibility to pay irl money for subscription, since i'm poor irl, i barely can afford to pay for internet, now, with these changes (only 60d gtc's at crazy prices and now this change), i will be able to barelly keep an account alive, and that's the 1 i make isk on, so no more pvp for me i guess :(. Thks a lot CCP for turning the best game ever into some ****, i guess i've lived more than enough in this fantasy world, it was great while it lasted, i'l go back to single player games i guess Crying or Very sad


If you can barely afford to pay for internet and EVE, perhaps it's best that you quit and evaluate you're lifestyle anyways ...


So Eve is for the rich?


lol

Just saying, that if paying for EVE is breaking your budget perhaps you should reevaluate your lifestyle and maybe look into setting some new priorities. Doesn't exactly take a freaking millionaire to pay $15 a month does it?




Depends on how many lots of $15 you're paying out, and what else you've got as an outgoing... Eve isn't the only thing that costs.

Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:21:00 - [1742]
 

Originally by: Remlidan
Originally by: NupetietVer
$15 a month? Show me the link for that GTC. It's $35 now, more than doubled the price of an old 30-day GTC, which was $15.


It's $35 for 60 days. Think the subscription cost is $15 in the States (at least according to http://www.eve-online.com/faq/faq_08.asp)?


$35 for 60 days is $17.50/mo, not $15.

Sailon
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:22:00 - [1743]
 

maybe this is their last attempt to keep their bussines up islandic economy is pretty worse at moment why dont ccp move all their activity to europe and get better salary than dieing at iceland :o.

Triksterism
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:22:00 - [1744]
 

Originally by: Virgo I'Platonicus
omfg. Bloody bad news to me :)
It was exactly what kept this game fresh for most of us old players. We could take a month off the game, knowing that when we came back the game would have something new to offer.
Lol i guess next time i freeze my accounts, I'll think 3times whether to return :)
@CCP: I'm sure your financial team has a good reason for the change. It'd be nice if Wrangler could offer in his dev blog somewhat less ambigous information (or some numbers) to indicate the "avalanche" size.

/me turns wishful mode off :)

Regards,
V.


Look at the 'snowflake' link in my sig

lucy stirling
Gallente
Guardian Heroes Inc.
Gunmen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:23:00 - [1745]
 

Well i don't see what is wrong what CCP are doing.

I have two characters and there payed for i think if you want more then 1 character then you must be willing to pay for it as you are the one that desided you have another character.

To me it make perfect sence as CCP is a game that people love and hate sometimes. CCP make a great game and for them to make this great game and improve it they need people to pay for there time on the game.

I know this upset people but they need to know they are a Company that has people that work for them and very good people too and they have to pay there wages and so on.

May agaist other people i am not just i can understand what CCP are doing.

Adam Slysphere
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:24:00 - [1746]
 

Originally by: Karina Mei
Originally by: Adam Slysphere
Originally by: Gunner
Originally by: Adam Slysphere
Originally by: Dlightfull
Eve was the only decent MMO i could play, coz there is the possibility to pay irl money for subscription, since i'm poor irl, i barely can afford to pay for internet, now, with these changes (only 60d gtc's at crazy prices and now this change), i will be able to barelly keep an account alive, and that's the 1 i make isk on, so no more pvp for me i guess :(. Thks a lot CCP for turning the best game ever into some ****, i guess i've lived more than enough in this fantasy world, it was great while it lasted, i'l go back to single player games i guess Crying or Very sad


If you can barely afford to pay for internet and EVE, perhaps it's best that you quit and evaluate you're lifestyle anyways ...


So Eve is for the rich?


lol

Just saying, that if paying for EVE is breaking your budget perhaps you should reevaluate your lifestyle and maybe look into setting some new priorities. Doesn't exactly take a freaking millionaire to pay $15 a month does it?




Depends on how many lots of $15 you're paying out, and what else you've got as an outgoing... Eve isn't the only thing that costs.



Yeah, see that's my point ... If you're that strapped for cash, perhaps EVE should be way down on the priorities list?

NoX PL
Pink Bunnies
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:25:00 - [1747]
 

Edited by: NoX PL on 14/10/2008 14:25:55
Its harder and harder to like this game beacuse with every dev blog you come up with a wonderfull idea that only makes people angry.

Remlidan
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:25:00 - [1748]
 

Originally by: Seth Ruin
Originally by: Remlidan
Originally by: NupetietVer
$15 a month? Show me the link for that GTC. It's $35 now, more than doubled the price of an old 30-day GTC, which was $15.


It's $35 for 60 days. Think the subscription cost is $15 in the States (at least according to http://www.eve-online.com/faq/faq_08.asp)?


$35 for 60 days is $17.50/mo, not $15.


Yes, which is 17% more than before, not more than double the price which he was claiming. And you can still subscribe for $15.

Virgo I'Platonicus
0utbreak
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:26:00 - [1749]
 

Edited by: Virgo I''Platonicus on 14/10/2008 14:28:49
Originally by: Triksterism


Look at the 'snowflake' link in my sig


You don't have a sig :P

V.

EDIT: found it and lol :)

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:26:00 - [1750]
 

Originally by: lucy stirling
Well i don't see what is wrong what CCP are doing.

I have two characters and there payed for i think if you want more then 1 character then you must be willing to pay for it as you are the one that desided you have another character.

To me it make perfect sence as CCP is a game that people love and hate sometimes. CCP make a great game and for them to make this great game and improve it they need people to pay for there time on the game.

I know this upset people but they need to know they are a Company that has people that work for them and very good people too and they have to pay there wages and so on.

May agaist other people i am not just i can understand what CCP are doing.


Which would be the point if this didn't do the complete opposite of the stated goal.

Doesn't decrease database load (will increase it)
Doesn't give them more money long term (though I don't doubt it will 'this month')
Doesn't fix a bug, (is a feature that attracts players back to the game)

Since CCP pay much of their wages in ISK, and the ISK just dropped big time vs the Euro/USD which they get subscriptions in, they should actually be doing better already.

Gael Itrus
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:26:00 - [1751]
 

It was my plan to open a second account to train for caps. I'm afraid that isn't going to happen with these changes.

Also, don't call something a bug when you've previously framed it as a feature.

Quote:
Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive (in the second scenario you can't change skill training, though). As a result, it is a good idea to train short skills while you are playing and longer ones when you log off.


How to train skills, 3rd paragraph.
[http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g615.asp]


Adam Slysphere
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:27:00 - [1752]
 

Originally by: Sailon
maybe this is their last attempt to keep their bussines up islandic economy is pretty worse at moment why dont ccp move all their activity to europe and get better salary than dieing at iceland :o.


Again, CCP's funding is in Euro's not ISK, so the Icelandic depression isn't impacting them like the rest of the country. They've already commented on this many times.

Sailon
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:27:00 - [1753]
 

Originally by: lucy stirling
Well i don't see what is wrong what CCP are doing.

I have two characters and there payed for i think if you want more then 1 character then you must be willing to pay for it as you are the one that desided you have another character.

To me it make perfect sence as CCP is a game that people love and hate sometimes. CCP make a great game and for them to make this great game and improve it they need people to pay for there time on the game.

I know this upset people but they need to know they are a Company that has people that work for them and very good people too and they have to pay there wages and so on.

May agaist other people i am not just i can understand what CCP are doing.


But why dont keep playerbase happy instead of giving it bad taste , happy player tells friend about good game instead of just saying your friend how the game is not good and no new players join.

Mriss
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:27:00 - [1754]
 

Originally by: Adam Slysphere


Yeah, see that's my point ... If you're that strapped for cash, perhaps EVE should be way down on the priorities list?




I understand that you are trolling and trying to make people angrier yet.

Please stop that.

Ratio Legis
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:27:00 - [1755]
 

Originally by: Adam Slysphere
If you're that strapped for cash, perhaps EVE should be way down on the priorities list?

And you are arguing that it's a good change that would prompt a person to reevaluate his RL priorities and realize he's actually too poor to support his hoby, while a week ago he was not?

AlphaViscera
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:28:00 - [1756]
 

Edited by: AlphaViscera on 14/10/2008 14:29:17
I fail to see the logic here... If this was a gameplay balance fix, then there is a laundry list of balance issues to be fixed, and if this was a cash grab, the reality is that this really kills the alt accounts.


Think of it like this

Joe Blogs has a main eve account which he pays for pretty much always, unless to train for a large skill, when that happens he uses one of his alt accounts to play the game.

We all know this and some of us do it but lets look at it in economics

$15 per month for say 10 out of the 12 months per year = $150
the alt account which gets used more than just the 2 months, say 6 months = $75

total = $225

This patch will mean that Joe has no real need for the alt account, unless he is say a cap pilot, so the new changes will make him change his playing style, transfer the alt to the same account, and ask for support from the corp.

12 months of eve sub = $180


thats a loss of $45 per year.


Look I know Iceland is tanking, and you're creditors must be pooping bricks right about now, but seriously did anyone really crunch these numbers before you approved it?


Also, if this was a gameplay bug, then it really does not make a difference if joe is subbed or not, he will finish BS V and he will fly carriers, so to other players it makes no difference.


CCP You need your head checked

Tara Yang
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:28:00 - [1757]
 

Edited by: Tara Yang on 14/10/2008 14:35:49
Originally by: The Dev Blog
That's not fair towards CCP as a service provider and it's not fair towards other players that pay a subscription but don't make use of this bug.

Now a single customer that doesn't log into the servers may not weigh heavily on our database infrastructure, just as a single snowflake isn't that heavy, hardly a measurable quantity. But it's hard not to notice an avalanche if it hits you. And that's what was starting to happen in our database.





Just wanted to add my 0.02 isk to this very long thread. (I pity the fool who has to read it all at CCP, If they even read it.)

Granted I can understand that It's not fair to CCP that people still get higher SP while they are not paying for it. But to use those skills they have to in someway still pay to use the account someday.

But I really invalidated that it effects the player base in anyway, because even though They get higher skill points without paying, A paying customer gets the same ammount op SP AND isk by extually using the account AND a better understanding of the game mechanics by exctually playing the game. Granted I think most people using ghost training have multiple accounts and therefor gets better in eve anyway. If I recall correctlly this was the same argument used some time ago when new characters would be getting around 800k-900k SP at start up instead of the very low ammounts it was set up before that time. TO me this is a bit of hypocracy or turning words around or whatever you want to call it.

Moreover I really can't see how by someone not being active and not logging in on the server gets the database overloaded. As you can not excess the database and get an update on your skills by for instance evemon. If your database gets overloaded by not loggin in you really need to take an other look at how your database is structered.

Just to be sure I have used ghost training once sort off with an alt account but the only reason I did that was because the gtc prices went through the roof. But right now I'm happily paying for both accounts I have.



Just to make a long story short and like the guy above me just said. I really think CCP in the end will be losing money byt his action. Plus PR wise it's really dumb to call something a bug while it's in the player guide.

Lag
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:29:00 - [1758]
 

This change is complete crap.

Why should I pay for a months time that my character will not be able to do anything?

Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:29:00 - [1759]
 

Originally by: Ratio Legis
Originally by: Adam Slysphere
If you're that strapped for cash, perhaps EVE should be way down on the priorities list?

And you are arguing that it's a good change that would prompt a person to reevaluate his RL priorities and realize he's actually too poor to support his hoby, while a week ago he was not?


Slacker strike two!

Gael Itrus
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:29:00 - [1760]
 

Originally by: Carsidava
Nope, sorry. This doesn't wash.

If you disable skill training for inactive accounts, why aren't you also disabling market orders from inactive accounts? Why aren't you also disabling RP accumulation from inactive accounts? Why aren't you disabling dividend payouts to inactive accounts?

Why are only skill points being hit?

Sorry CCP, this is an entirely unsatisfactory answer.


Because none of those things make CCP money.

Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:31:00 - [1761]
 

Originally by: Leilla Mac
What are the odds on this "bug fix" borking the skill training continuing during DT. How many fixes have worked as intended without being pushed onto a test server first.Rolling Eyes
I'd hope CCP have got this code worked out properly or the forums are likely to explode and a large maintenance bill will ensue.ugh
I sense a large LOL in the pipeline.Laughing


On a serious note I can see Skill training getting borked when you log out ie only online character getting trained and CCP Saying we are aware of the isssue and it will be fixed in a "later" patch.

Just think of how many GTC we would need to get to Cap Ship 5 if it only trained while online.


Maybe i should edit this post because if CCP read it (i doubt they will, they don't listen to customers anymore they can always tell the media hey we have CSM, we are the MMO leaders in Customer support LOL) they WILL like the idea and they WILL implemented purely by accident of course.


Venetos
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:31:00 - [1762]
 

This "bug" was a feature for players playing with way cheaper GTCs for almost 5 years = already hi-skilled, rich (ISK-wise) and powerful players that you claimed that "cheated" all this time, will now become even stronger vs. noobs...great "bug fixxing" - customer support...a few months after raising GTC prizes...

Great...nothing to add to this thread - a lot of constructive points in may "customer" opinions tho...

Rinaldo Titano
Caldari
Caldari Elite Force
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:32:00 - [1763]
 

Originally by: AlphaViscera
Edited by: AlphaViscera on 14/10/2008 14:29:17
I fail to see the logic here... If this was a gameplay balance fix, then there is a laundry list of balance issues to be fixed, and if this was a cash grab, the reality is that this really kills the alt accounts.


Think of it like this

Joe Blogs has a main eve account which he pays for pretty much always, unless to train for a large skill, when that happens he uses one of his alt accounts to play the game.

We all know this and some of us do it but lets look at it in economics

$15 per month for say 10 out of the 12 months per year = $150
the alt account which gets used more than just the 2 months, say 6 months = $75

total = $225

This patch will mean that Joe has no real need for the alt account, unless he is say a cap pilot, so the new changes will make him change his playing style, transfer the alt to the same account, and ask for support from the corp.

12 months of eve sub = $180


thats a loss of $45 per year.


Look I know Iceland is tanking, and you're creditors must be pooping bricks right about now, but seriously did anyone really crunch these numbers before you approved it?


Also, if this was a gameplay bug, then it really does not make a difference if joe is subbed or not, he will finish BS V and he will fly carriers, so to other players it makes no difference.


CCP You need your head checked


and 2 other peoples would still pay the full subscribe for the accounts so that 2x 360 eur what is than 2x 135$ so the change was good for the income :(

pity but is so and it would go trough. and dont wait on response devs never responding on threads which are not like they wanted

Wygg
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Paxton Federation
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:32:00 - [1764]
 

The easy solution to this whole problem is really quite simple.

Prohibit the sale of any character that's been inactive for a set percentage of their lifespan.

25%? 50%? 75%? Something could be worked out. It would stop the farming of characters simply for ISK generation and allow people with RL issues the ability to still reap a reward. Spend X% of the time with the account/characters inactive and you can't sell them. Sounds like a compromise.

Sure it would be nice to be able to train three characters simultaneously. Multi-skill training would be nifty and a training queue would be a boon. That having been said, the other side of the argument begs why you shouldn't have to play a character who's training a long skill?

This coming from a guy who's got quite a few skills at V and who hasn't gone inactive for them.

(And to all the peeps bemoaning what a "weak" or "mediocre" game Eve is ... why don't you just quit, then? Really. Just go.)

Adam Slysphere
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:32:00 - [1765]
 

Originally by: Ratio Legis
Originally by: Adam Slysphere
If you're that strapped for cash, perhaps EVE should be way down on the priorities list?

And you are arguing that it's a good change that would prompt a person to reevaluate his RL priorities and realize he's actually too poor to support his hoby, while a week ago he was not?


I fail to see how this is impacting him ... If he was just running one account it's still going to be the same for him. And seriously, if he's that strapped for cash is running two accounts really that good of an idea?

I'm not trolling and I'm all for people having a hobby and what not. All I'm saying is that if someone is that strapped for cash than perhaps he should focus less on an internet spaceship game and put his money elsewhere. Am I wrong in suggesting that people spend their money on important things in life instead of a video game? lol

Karina Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:32:00 - [1766]
 

Originally by: Adam Slysphere
Originally by: Karina Mei


Depends on how many lots of $15 you're paying out, and what else you've got as an outgoing... Eve isn't the only thing that costs.



Yeah, see that's my point ... If you're that strapped for cash, perhaps EVE should be way down on the priorities list?


Which is maybe going to be the reaction of a lot of people with numerous accounts. Personally this is my reaction to the change, but not down to the money issue. Mine is more due to the fact that I don't get to play much and just keep characters ghost training so I've got some incentive to come back to the game at a point in the future and start paying for all my accounts.

Adam Slysphere
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:33:00 - [1767]
 

Originally by: Lag
This change is complete crap.

Why should I pay for a months time that my character will not be able to do anything?


it is doing something. It's learning a new skill ...

Poleander
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:33:00 - [1768]
 

Originally by: Lag
This change is complete crap.

Why should I pay for a months time that my character will not be able to do anything?


why will he not be able to do anything?
and why should the value of inactive accounts be increased without them being paid for?

Jel Ting
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:33:00 - [1769]
 

I don't understand the referals to this ghost training as a selling point?
I never saw it in an ad. I know that training a skill while you are logged off is a selling point. This is a Balance issue too. People are power leveling, I say this even though eve has no real equivalance, but for arguments sake let's assume the normal char progression is to train frigates, then go to interceptors or assault frigates, then train for cov ops, recons, hacs, command ships, BS 5, and finally Capital ships and beyond, well that's like 2-3 years in training but you have a pilot that can fly most of a races ships and has support skills across the board. Now if a character is made and simply a course plotted for capital ships you could get there in less than a year and do it by only paying lets say 6 months. So what we have is lots of people creating alts training them to dreads only paying 50% and distorting the balance of characters on the server. I'm not a big alt fan myself, I think Eve should only allow one client to run on a system myself, but if one wants to create an alt and train him anyway he see's fit fine, but pay for it. Money limits things, so if people are spending less on alts then they can create more, this drives down the price of characters and floods the game with "cheap" and plentiful cap pilots and hulks, this is not good for the balance IMHO. I want people to care what they train and train what they play, not train for caps because it's the best way to train long skills for free or reduced cost. For those of you that can't wait 2-4 weeks for a skill to train, put down the caffeine, for the longer skills like 60-80 days, why not wait until your character has other stuff trained before going right for Capitals 5? oh wait you can't play the toon when you train for that because your character has crap skills and can only fly the prerequisites to capitals, tough *****, train an inty they are a blast, stop whining and start playing the game. Don't ***** cause you started in 07 and some guy from 04 has a titan and you don't, and you don't get to catch up to him by hardly paying. Play the game Rolling Eyes

Signaldog
Gallente
Cloak and Daggers
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:33:00 - [1770]
 

Originally by: Lag
This change is complete crap.

Why should I pay for a months time that my character will not be able to do anything?


You can do something...in fact, you can do anything you want, but most importantly, you can PLAY the game you are paying for...nothing says you can't play and train a skill at the same time....I've got BS V on one account (paid for non-stop) and Enough skills/SP to fly a Rorq on a second account (paid for non-stop) and have PLAYED the game the entire time.


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