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Squirrrel
Gallente
Squirrrel Industries
Posted - 2008.11.27 18:42:00 - [5671]
 

Originally by: Soma Khan
As for my arguments, I have not seen anything that even remotely answers the questions that I posed. All I see is denial and posturing.


What questions were those? All I've seen it baiting.

By all means repost them. If they are valid questions I'm sure someone will respond to them.

Soma Khan
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.27 18:50:00 - [5672]
 

Originally by: Squirrrel
Originally by: Soma Khan
As for my arguments, I have not seen anything that even remotely answers the questions that I posed. All I see is denial and posturing.


What questions were those? All I've seen it baiting.

By all means repost them. If they are valid questions I'm sure someone will respond to them.

How about this one posted just a couple of posts ago: What does this tell about a person who can't stop ,for weeks, asking for an apology for something, even if, for the sake of this argument, an apology is required?

Squirrrel
Gallente
Squirrrel Industries
Posted - 2008.11.27 19:36:00 - [5673]
 

Edited by: Squirrrel on 27/11/2008 21:08:58
Originally by: Soma Khan

How about this one posted just a couple of posts ago: What does this tell about a person who can't stop ,for weeks, asking for an apology for something, even if, for the sake of this argument, an apology is required?



I'm not really sure if the question makes sense; maybe I'm missing something.

You're asking what is says about a person who continues to ask for an apology that they never receive, even if it were true that an apology is actually required?

If that's what your asking then I guess it can tell you many different things; all amount to those people being hacked off with having paid for a sevice and being lied to or mislead in some fashion.

Here's a question for you then:

What does it tell you about a company who:

1) Doesn't notice a bug for 5 years in either their own game or in their official documentation.
2) Makes mention positively of the "bug" as a feature on their own forums by their own staff for mulitple years, even ammending patch notes to reflect it's still enabled.
3) Changes the so-called bug on a server they open in China, but choose not to change it on the server where it is now deemed a bug they missed due to oversights.
4) Slowly migrates the offical reasoning behind the change from it being all about database load, to a little bit about database load and the fairness of training whilst unsubbed; to a business decision as they are a company above all else and it's only right their revenues increase.
5) Doesn't seem to have the bottle to either come out and say it as it is "It's our game, we can change it however we see fit, we've decided to remove unsubbed training, we think it's affecting our bottom line.
6) (Edit insert: Doesn't) Communicate with it's player base when they have genuine concerns, even if they are some that don't <Shock horror> agree with the sentiments of said people.

I don't really care that you're one of the people who is happily still paying and playing.
Good for you. Really.
That said, people on your side of the fence seem to only cling on to the fact that CCP are a business and it's a great business decision etc etc etc.
You're right about one thing: They are a business. A business that has customers.

What you're totally missing, is the right of those who have paid, are still effectively paying (even if cancelled) CCP and take issue with what they perceive as being lied to.

We still want CCP to comment on those issues in this thread; not only the removing of the change, but the way it was handled. That is our right, and I for one am pleased that others are as persistent as myself.
You donít get far in this life by giving up; itís only a lost cause to a few people in this thread.

AltSpying 101
Posted - 2008.11.28 01:18:00 - [5674]
 

Originally by: Rethie

Keep with the storyline CCP, our characters are in a universe based on real time, so give back the real time training, or counteract with an ability to multiply training time by using a booster or something, so when unsubbed and returning to the game we can grind and catch up to our rate of learning lost.

My vote is there, and I am not a unsubbed user. time running out on my sub!!


Yes, yes, YES!

fried eggs
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.28 01:57:00 - [5675]
 

Originally by: Soma Khan

So all this is just a big wine for an apology that isn't coming?
Your opinion?

Originally by: Soma Khan
What does this tell about a person who can't stop ,for weeks, asking for an apology for something, even if, for the sake of this argument, an apology is required?

It tells me that we are paying customers that are persistent. What does it tell you?

8Z 6
Posted - 2008.11.28 05:45:00 - [5676]
 

Key point: customers. Ultimately cccp is a business and the players are its clients and source of existence. When there is this much of an outpouring of dissatisfaction with no reply or inclination to reverse a poorly thought out decision it tells us how cccp really views its customers. All things considered, this isnt much of a surprise.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.11.28 08:49:00 - [5677]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 28/11/2008 08:49:59
Originally by: 8Z 6
One benefit to cccp of ghost training was an incentive to keep multiple accounts running intermittently. Now instead of one person with multiple accounts which can be ghost trained the incentive to have multiple accounts is gone.

Think before posting....
The incentive is still there (unless you were character farming)! The incentive to have multiple accounts is that you can do different things, not that you could ghost train.
The majority of people (no matter what they whine about) will keep their accounts active and training if they can afford it (and most people CAN afford it). That's simply the addictive nature of EVE.
You're claiming that people kept their second accounts so they could train freely... Get a grip. That's the most stupid argument in a long time....
Originally by: 8Z 6
Judging by your posts your business skill is as inept as your ability to argue a point and analyze a situation. You have such a hard-on for this being the 'greatest space MMO' then stop posting in a thread that youve already stated affects you none at all and go play the game and stop bothering the grownups.

My business skills seem much better than yours Twisted Evil

I at least understand that a company needs paying customers to survive, and that giving stuff away freely on a regular basis is not good business practice.

Secondly, if my arguments are bothering you so much that I need to 'stop posting', then that is a very clear indication that I'm raising issues you'd rather not consider, most likely because they completely shatter your illusion of righteous rage. Twisted Evil
Originally by: Squirrel
You're so right. In fact, I'm starting to feel ashamed for laughing at Kerfira, he's obviously not all there in the head.

Ahhh, the personal attack... A classic forum mistake Laughing

You do know that this is the ultimate sign on forums that your opponent is right? The personal attacks only start when you can't counter the arguments of the other person!
If you had good arguments, you'd go with those, but of.c. you don't Cool

There seem to be about 20 people or so still caring about this issue, with most others having either quit (not many judging by recent player numbers), or accepted that CCP made a sound business decision.

However, since you're obviously enjoying wallowing in that pool of righteous rage, please continue. It doesn't bother me one bit, and I still get a laugh out of you every morning ugh

Sweet dreams!

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.11.28 08:57:00 - [5678]
 

Originally by: 8Z 6
Key point: customers. Ultimately cccp is a business and the players are its clients and source of existence. When there is this much of an outpouring of dissatisfaction with no reply or inclination to reverse a poorly thought out decision it tells us how cccp really views its customers. All things considered, this isnt much of a surprise.

If you knew anything about business at all, you'd know that the wise move is to stay out of the argument.

A certain part of any business segment (for gamers this is probably quite a large part) will never be able to see beyond their own nose, and the wise way to handle them is not to argue.

And by the way, this was not a 'poorly thought out' decision. It was a sound business decision that may involve some pain in the short run, but in the long term is totally justified.

Luke Diewalker
Posted - 2008.11.28 10:59:00 - [5679]
 

the "SURGE" in inactive accounts is because you raised your price to $35 for 2 months and took away the month by month option. if you think people are ghosttraining the skills and making their accounts inactive just for that, your stupid. even if they were, who cares????????

IT DOESNT EVEN MATTER BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO BECOME A PAYING CUSTOMER AGAIN TO USE THEIR CHARACTER!

i mean, really, how much skilling can be done, since you can only skill up 1 item at a time.

why dont you let us skill 5 skills at once or let the skills train faster, instead of 300 days for the good stuff. get real.

Squirrrel
Gallente
Squirrrel Industries
Posted - 2008.11.28 17:40:00 - [5680]
 

Originally by: Kerfira

Originally by: Squirrel
You're so right. In fact, I'm starting to feel ashamed for laughing at Kerfira, he's obviously not all there in the head.


Ahhh, the personal attack... A classic forum mistake Laughing

You do know that this is the ultimate sign on forums that your opponent is right? The personal attacks only start when you can't counter the arguments of the other person!
If you had good arguments, you'd go with those, but of.c. you don't Cool



I've countered your (terrible and at times barely coherent) arguments, as have others and you still harp on about free lunches and the like when that's only a small part of the bad feeling toward ccp in this thread.

You're sadly missing out a vital aspect to what you perceive as a personal attack... I was actually serious.
Pulling that little card out your pocket to say "Ha! You lost!" doesn't really work for me, nor I bet for most others. Just cos your mama said you were special doesn't make it so to the rest of the world.

Nice try though.

Squirrrel
Gallente
Squirrrel Industries
Posted - 2008.11.28 17:59:00 - [5681]
 

Originally by: Kerfira

If you knew anything about business at all, you'd know that the wise move is to stay out of the argument.


Did the business school you went to teach you to lie to your customers too and then not bother to address the concerns once they become apparent?

If you knew anything about business you'll know that customer perception is paramount, and if you get caught in a lie, you either apologise publicly or you try to spin it.

They got things backwards. They tried to spin first (Which I can well understand) and then once they got caught spinning they just fell silent.
The natural business thing to do in this instance would have been to apologise, even if they still planned to keep the change.

I think they've let it go on so long now though, that an apology would look ridiculous, however there is not a limitless amount of MMO players present and future, and although some may well not quit this time, the next thing on top of this may well swing the balance for them to leave.

Galea Wildfang
Inebriated Consortium Enterprises Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.29 07:23:00 - [5682]
 

Edited by: Galea Wildfang on 29/11/2008 07:28:10

Originally by: Kerfira

There seem to be about 20 people or so still caring about this issue, with most others having either quit (not many judging by recent player numbers), or accepted that CCP made a sound business decision.



I don't know it exactly, but my guess is, you're wrong. I for myself follow this thread and check it like every other day to see, if something's happening.

The last (RL-) friend I had in this game quit over this. He wasn't actually playing the game, but selling his assets and train his character with GTC's. He utilized ghost training in the process to keep the costs low. One day, EVE could be fun again, so his thought. He finally gave up on his hope after this desaster. So one more gone without the hope of he returning back.

I for myself didn't use ghost training in the past much, just for those moments I forgot to prolong my gaming time. I did plan to do so in the future though, as cash is currently low. Now I feel forced, to consolidate my accounts and merge them together. This will put 6 characters on 2 accounts I pay for, one way or the others. I doubt, even if CCP backpedals one day, I'll move those characters to their own account again.

I personally don't care what they're talking about, as with other more or less recent PR desasters I won't trust them as far as I can throw them anyways. In my book this is no longer a bunch of spaceship enthusiasts, but some greedy buisiness people. I truely hope this backfires bad.

Zanpt
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.29 13:57:00 - [5683]
 

Edited by: Zanpt on 29/11/2008 14:40:50
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: fried eggs
Originally by: Kerfira
I wonder why all the 1000's of players that emoragequit over this, the speed nerf and the missile nerf are still logging in....
http://www.eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
41k players online this last day...

Twisted Evil
And you know that all of the people that have stated their intention to leave the game have not done so...how? You do know that you don't loose the right to login when you cancel an account, right? Or could it be that you are just attempting to "troll"?

Nope... Just pointing out that numbers doesn't match.... Some guy some pages back (cba to find it) was claiming that player numbers were dropping sharply because of this. I'm merely proving with numbers that they aren't...

Enjoy gnawing your liver Twisted Evil



Online population numbers have been dropping since last March. They dropped further after the unsubbed training nerf then apparently got a bump from QR, from interest in the Orca, and possibly from a higher level of Eve banner ads across all gaming sites, as some friends have reported to me. So you are proving nothing.

We will see, over the coming months, how the numbers actually play out. At the time CCP created this crapstorm, the ppl deciding to consolidate accounts and/or quit were on some unknown mix of terms ranging from 30 days to one year. In Eve you can't get rid of time already paid; you can only cancel a recurring subscription so it doesn't recur when the current period expires, or decline to buy more time as a fixed-time sub like a GTC runs out.

I reactivated most of my accounts to check out the Orca. I did not expect that the Orca would change my mind about participating much less in Eve, and it didn't. I paid a premium to get one of the first ones off the manuf lines and have learned how to use it. My Orca pilot has about 25 days to go to reach Indu Command Ship V and max bonuses, but that account will expire before then and I don't care enough anymore to be concerned that his training will stop. My curiosity about the Orca has been satisfied and all my accounts are once again canceled, expiring between Dec 12 and 19. After that only one or two will remain active to keep a hand in with corp and alliance matters.

After QR and the missile nerf I ran just one L3 mission, found it completely unsatisfactory, and immediately put my fitted CNR up for sale. It brought in 850 mil, and I am happy. No more missions. I don't spend time and ISK to jump through silly hoops just because idiots at CCP ruin what works.

I'm sitting on 1.33 bil, more than enough to pay office rents and alliance fees for a long, long time.

Short of a detailed, abject apology by CCP and restoration of unsubbed training with a clear policy statement that it is a feature I can't imagine what could rekindle my interest in Eve. Certainly not ambulation, which will be merely a novelty unrelated to why I played Eve in the first place.

boot.ini: fail
GTC changes: fail
Training nerf: fail
Lies and spin: fail
Missile nerf: fail
New and reappearing bugs: fail

As for gnawing on livers... as paying customers with the power to withhold all or part of what we have been paying CCP ($1,620 annualized, in my case), it seems to me that we are in the position of being able to gnaw on CCP's liver. When vendors of any kind displease me I use my money ruthlessly to punish them. Whether they realize it or not, whether they wake up and change their ways, are secondary. Primary is that it's my money and I control who gets it and under what circumstances. I am the judge and there is no higher authority to which CCP can appeal.

Zanpt
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.29 15:21:00 - [5684]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
...I at least understand that a company needs paying customers to survive, and that giving stuff away freely on a regular basis is not good business practice.


You really must live in a cave. All types of businesses give all manner of stuff away for free... to attract first-time customers, to reward returning customers, to fill in slow days or seasons... to be competitive.

If you watched TV at all you would be deluged with ads offering "free" stuff, from discounts to low or no interest, to two-fers, etc. In my business we offer prospective customers a free trial of our product and we offer free lodging, meals and transportation for prospects and customers who visit us. All of that costs us, but it facilitates serious consideration of our product and helps increase sales. Unsubbed training, otoh, cost CCP nothing.

The incentive embodied in the unsubbed training was to reactivate accounts. That incentive is gone, and will most certainly impact the rate of reactivation. That was not a good business decision.

-7 accounts.

Tasty Bit
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.11.29 15:49:00 - [5685]
 

Originally by: Zanpt
Originally by: Kerfira
...I at least understand that a company needs paying customers to survive, and that giving stuff away freely on a regular basis is not good business practice.


You really must live in a cave. All types of businesses give all manner of stuff away for free... to attract first-time customers, to reward returning customers, to fill in slow days or seasons... to be competitive.

If you watched TV at all you would be deluged with ads offering "free" stuff, from discounts to low or no interest, to two-fers, etc. In my business we offer prospective customers a free trial of our product and we offer free lodging, meals and transportation for prospects and customers who visit us. All of that costs us, but it facilitates serious consideration of our product and helps increase sales. Unsubbed training, otoh, cost CCP nothing.

The incentive embodied in the unsubbed training was to reactivate accounts. That incentive is gone, and will most certainly impact the rate of reactivation. That was not a good business decision.

-7 accounts.


The last 2 posts are brilliantly stated, well done. However, I fear you are wasting your time. The "haz stuffz" brigade have no ability to understand your stance (mine too, apart from the interest in the Orca).

Key west
Posted - 2008.11.29 18:00:00 - [5686]
 

Edited by: Key west on 29/11/2008 19:33:57
Edited by: Key west on 29/11/2008 18:22:55
I totally agree... the previous two posts were brillantly written.

But hell... does CCP care? Nope... if they did, they would have responded to this by now.

I think I will complain to the BBB... just to let the American Better Business Bureau know that "Customer Service Complaints" aren't being acknowledged or addressed in a professional manner by CCP.

Doubt it will make a difference since CCP is located out of the USA.
However I think CCP has offices in Atlanta, GA I believe. Nothing else, I'll give them a negative landmark in the BBB. I suggest everyone here to contact their form of the BBB as well.

I suppose CCP is trying to solve the lag problem by ridding their server of all the long time players and lord knows we need to get rid of all the lag causing ghost riders.

down 3 accounts, way to go CCP Smile (EDIT = I'll be closing ALL my accounts, not just 3. More I think about it the more mad I get.)

Five Dorrah
Posted - 2008.11.29 18:13:00 - [5687]
 

Can't say I really cared about this when I first read it, although it was nice to come back to a 2-month skill being completed after taking 8 months or so off not too long ago. It's hilarious having you guys play it off like this is a bug, or unintended feature, while listing it in your own knowledge base. I guess we're supposed to take your word for it when you say BoB doesn't get free Titans in exchange for BJ's, too.

Stil Harkonnen
Posted - 2008.11.29 19:28:00 - [5688]
 

Edited by: Stil Harkonnen on 29/11/2008 19:59:26
Edited by: Stil Harkonnen on 29/11/2008 19:58:37
Has CCP responded to this at all other than some post on one of the pages in between 10 and 20?

And if you didn't read that one, all it did was remind us to comment politely and respect each other.

If they haven't responded to our accusations of their being liars, I take that as a win. They don't know what to say to the accusations because they are true.

I'm glad I only have 1 account because CCP just screwed those with multiple accounts training those looong skills. I almost let cruiser V train ghost, but no the day it would've started, ghost training was killed. I still haven't trained Cruiser V, save for 3 days, because not many people want to sit wand watch it train. My sister is training battlecruiser V, and she hasn't played for a single bit of it. Paying for time she's not even playing.

CCP, if you don't call that being a greedy money-stealing *****rd, I don't know what is.

EDIT: wow i can't believe they edited the word "n-i-g-g-a-r-d".

Read a dictionary and learn what it means, CCP. The ignorance is actually surprising. You may want to fix that bug... err... feature of the forum censoring system.

"N-i-g-g-a-r-d-l-y" (noun: "n-i-g-g-a-r-d") is an adjective meaning "stingy" or "miserly"

There have been several controversies about the word "n-i-g-g-a-r-d-l-y", an adjective meaning "stingy" or "miserly", in the United States due to the phonetic similarity to the racial slur "******". The two words are, however, completely unrelated.

Five Dorrah
Posted - 2008.11.30 05:13:00 - [5689]
 

Actually that's one of the root words for it, and the slur is a combination of *****rd, and nigra or negro, which is a Latin-based word for the color black in several languages. The reason it gets edited, is because people would, and have used various spellings to get past the filter.

Back on topic though, that's exactly why they haven't responded. They were caught in an outright lie, and are just hoping it will go away if they pretend they weren't caught with their pants down. Simple fact is though, their reason for changing this is just. I can't even imagine how many people are doing this to farm accounts and sell them for real money, or to sell characters for ISK, all at CCP's expense of course.

Apertotes
Posted - 2008.11.30 11:58:00 - [5690]
 

Originally by: Five Dorrah
I can't even imagine how many people are doing this to farm accounts and sell them for real money, or to sell characters for ISK, all at CCP's expense of course.


its not worth it. do the math. the money it takes to grow a character is more than the money you would get selling it (at any sp level).

the same can be said about isk. selling characters for isk is less profitable (and much more cumbersome) than buying GTC and selling them.

anybody doing any of those 2 things is an idiot.

Brother Welcome
Amarr
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.11.30 13:45:00 - [5691]
 

Edited by: Brother Welcome on 30/11/2008 14:19:21
After expressing my concerns frankly I've remained silent on this thread, but dropped in to check it from time to time. To their discredit CCP are following the now standard corporate measure of silence. Individuals have relatively short interest spans: so I am sure it will be effective.

My 60-day sub ends in 3 days time.


-vk

fried eggs
Caldari
Posted - 2008.12.01 14:56:00 - [5692]
 

Originally by: Brother Welcome
Individuals have relatively short interest spans: so I am sure it will be effective.
Combined with expired/cancelled accounts, I'm afraid you are right. There won't be anyone left to speak up...

8Z 6
Posted - 2008.12.01 20:52:00 - [5693]
 

they need to hurry about announcing their realization that this was a stupid idea and nothing more than a poorly timed april fools joke so i can reactivate my expired accounts. either that or i dont reactivate them. ever.

Tasty Bit
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.12.01 21:14:00 - [5694]
 

This, my accounts are slowly expiring, and whereas in the past I used to activate immediately after the skill finished, they're just sitting idle. And I'm not in the least inclined to reactivate.

The bell is tolling.

meepakbong
Posted - 2008.12.01 21:27:00 - [5695]
 

Bring back ghost training, pls.

Miuka
Amarr
Posted - 2008.12.02 09:09:00 - [5696]
 

Edited by: Miuka on 02/12/2008 09:10:22
And so ends my oh-so-brief space saga... I was going to deactivate my account for the holidays (since I'll be away for a few weeks) and then get back to pew pew. But with no ghost training during that time, it's buh-bye EVE for me, for good.

Grats CCP on losing another customer. And *sigh* back to WoW, you leave me no choice.

Zanpt
Caldari
Posted - 2008.12.02 11:24:00 - [5697]
 

Originally by: Tasty Bit
The last 2 posts are brilliantly stated, well done.


Thank you.

Originally by: Tasty Bit
However, I fear you are wasting your time. The "haz stuffz" brigade have no ability to understand your stance (mine too, apart from the interest in the Orca).


The point is not to convince the "haz stuffz" crowd. The point is to make a record. We are turning down the spigot of our money to CCP and we are stating why we are doing it.

Tasty Bit
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.12.02 11:33:00 - [5698]
 

Yes, the "haz stuffz" imbeciles are irrelevant, and a waste of good oxygen. I wish there was an ignore button that could be utilised where the need arises.


Zanpt
Caldari
Posted - 2008.12.02 11:34:00 - [5699]
 

Originally by: Five Dorrah
Back on topic though, that's exactly why they haven't responded. They were caught in an outright lie, and are just hoping it will go away if they pretend they weren't caught with their pants down.


Probably so.

Originally by: Five Dorrah
Simple fact is though, their reason for changing this is just. I can't even imagine how many people are doing this to farm accounts and sell them for real money, or to sell characters for ISK, all at CCP's expense of course.


Not so. You have obviously never tried to use unsubbed training to "farm" any chars. Even if that were your main activity in Eve, the unsubbed training only completed one step, then to train more the account would have to be reactivated (paid) again. Since all the training steps for new chars are short, there is little to be gained until much, much later, when things like Battleship V could take a month. The real advantage of unsubbed training doesn't come until training for capital ships, and I have trouble imagining a business based on farming cap ship pilots.

The most important aspect of unsubbed training was that it drew people back into the game, back into paid subscriptions. None of the people making wild claims about char farming have ever worked out how difficult that would be, nor how little the unsubbed training would help it.

xxOutlawxx
Caldari
Quantum Horizons
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.02 17:09:00 - [5700]
 

Hmm reactive my account so that means I will just stay in this thread and protest as well. YARRRR!!

Come on CCP bring back Ghost training, CCP you want the customers to come back and be happy: Bring back Ghost Training and tell the truth. Razz

No wait CCP is confuse when they mix up the truth with lies.
Rolling Eyes


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