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Rasik Argimater
Posted - 2008.11.08 21:08:00 - [5401]
 

Originally by: Squirrrel
By taking what Thaos said line by line you've destroyed the context of what he was saying.


Now that's just silly. He destroyed his own points with his own statements. And it's a fundamental of language that statements have to withstand detailed and point by point analysis. The only way for your claim to have meaning would be if we acknowledge that his overall piece has some intangible meaning and validity that cannot be found in the details. Nonsense.

Squirrrel
Gallente
Squirrrel Industries
Posted - 2008.11.08 23:42:00 - [5402]
 

Edited by: Squirrrel on 08/11/2008 23:41:53
No, the point is that when someone makes a statement such as:

Originally by: Thaos
no other MMORPG does this. But most other MMORPG’s use experience points and a different type of skill tree to advance in the game.


Then what's the point of breaking it up and asking how the first part is relevant as Eve isn't any other MMORG and then taking the second bit and saying it nullifies the first part?

In context he's already explained that away and that was his actual point.
No other MMO gives xp/training for free, but most other MMO's use a different training system so it can't be viewed the same. That's what he was getting at.
You broke all those bits off and debated them as if he was arguing one point and then contradicting himself.
In context, language does not work like that, and if you want to be really picky, it's incorrect to start a sentence with the word 'but', therefore you actually broke up a single sentence.
He may be guilty of incorrect use of grammar and therefore it doesn't survive scrutiny line by line; however you would have to be pretty anal to pick it apart and ignore context.

The same for when a person writes something in quotes. He used "bug" - he didn't say simply: bug. That implies sarcasm, that the person doesn't consider it to be a bug.
You say it's not a bug it's a feature. Re-read his entire post. He says the same thing - just that he used quotes and mentioned earlier on that it was nice to have unsubbed training.

You may think it's nonsense, and in parts it's hard to work out what his stance was, but you broke it down and attacked it where it wasn't necessary, as you took it out of context.

It seems he actually agreed with you but you argued about those bits anyway.

----------------------------------------
Doing whatever it takes to keep the thread alive...

Soma Khan
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.09 01:47:00 - [5403]
 

Originally by: Squirrrel
...
----------------------------------------
Doing whatever it takes to keep the thread alive...

Why don't y'all discuss the expansion coming on March 10 '09? That'll keep the thread alive for quite some time, no?

Chani Fedaykin
Posted - 2008.11.09 01:58:00 - [5404]
 

Originally by: Soma Khan
stuff
seems that you changed your tactics to obviously make posts without a point instead of trying to put no point into an argumentative structure.

thanks for the trolling - thats a free bump ^^


Soma Khan
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.09 02:34:00 - [5405]
 

Originally by: Chani Fedaykin
Originally by: Soma Khan
stuff
seems that you changed your tactics to obviously make posts without a point instead of trying to put no point into an argumentative structure.

thanks for the trolling - thats a free bump ^^



Hey, just being friendly!Very Happy

I see the concept is alien to you. Can't say I am surprised.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.11.09 02:34:00 - [5406]
 

This is the most unlucky thread, it keeps disappearing from the forums....

Don Shadow
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.09 07:58:00 - [5407]
 

Edited by: Don Shadow on 09/11/2008 08:04:38
Originally by: Soma Khan
Originally by: Squirrrel
...
----------------------------------------
Doing whatever it takes to keep the thread alive...

Why don't y'all discuss the expansion coming on March 10 '09? That'll keep the thread alive for quite some time, no?

so, they just found out when QR will be released, and you are telling me that they already know when it will be the next one? Shocked i mean, in 2-3 days he already was moved from next summer to march, maibe in the next 2-3 days will find that next expansion will be in december, this year, or maibe next year?...Rolling Eyes

Chani Fedaykin
Posted - 2008.11.09 09:50:00 - [5408]
 

Originally by: Soma Khan
stuff again
if i would actually take you serious, i would be offended. however since you have already proven that your posts hold no points, the sole emotion your posts are able to raise is plain amusement :)

Seth Vorlar
Posted - 2008.11.09 13:25:00 - [5409]
 

And still no response to the playerbase ????

Squirrrel
Gallente
Squirrrel Industries
Posted - 2008.11.09 17:02:00 - [5410]
 

Originally by: Seth Vorlar
And still no response to the playerbase ????


Well I thought that the original response to the playerbase seemed to be:
"We're looking at putting cool stuff in Quantum "Ris(e")ing.

That didn't seem to work too well so now we have...

We'll make you all come back and continue to pay to us even though we lied to you and tried to cover it up, I mean look what we have in store for you.

And this is a promise. I mean, would we lie to you? Oh... hold on, er... Hide the thread!

Squirrrel
Gallente
Squirrrel Industries
Posted - 2008.11.09 18:52:00 - [5411]
 

Edited by: Squirrrel on 09/11/2008 20:07:21
Originally by: Soma Khan

Why don't y'all discuss the expansion coming on March 10 '09? That'll keep the thread alive for quite some time, no?


Can I talk about Eve TV and Fanfest instead, and the fact that some people think CCP are lying about the reasons for not broadcasting a live feed?

Sandy Minge
Minmatar
Minge Deep-Core-Drilling
Posted - 2008.11.10 06:43:00 - [5412]
 

Originally by: Squirrrel
Edited by: Squirrrel on 09/11/2008 20:07:21
Originally by: Soma Khan

Why don't y'all discuss the expansion coming on March 10 '09? That'll keep the thread alive for quite some time, no?


Can I talk about Eve TV and Fanfest instead, and the fact that some people think CCP are lying about the reasons for not broadcasting a live feed?



Perhaps they wanted to ensure there is not gonna be any "Ghost-Fans", who would normally attend to the Fanfest but might turn into cheapskates, who save the ticket costs by watching the Livestream! :P

Sue Mee
Posted - 2008.11.10 08:48:00 - [5413]
 

Originally by: Liu

...CCP thinks, even more, CCP strongly believes, that the slower we train, the more we will pay. that is the reason, the only reasonable reason, why after 5 years, we do not have any sort of limited skill queue system. shame on you CCP, i still got 25 years of training planned on EVEMon, making me loose some minutes or hours here and there when real life strikes, or your incompetence causes unexpected server downtimes, does not make me pay more money to you. it only makes me mad...


QFT.

sort it out CCP, making us loose training time is not gonna get you a single extra dollar. there are enough skills to keep us busy for the next two decades, dont be cheap on us, and code a skill queue already.

Ssstupido
Posted - 2008.11.10 09:11:00 - [5414]
 

oh my, how can this thread not be a sticky? you have 50 stickies on this section of the forums, and this thread, which is the one with most replies, is not worth it? is that your silent answer to the playerbase?

i guess you must be surprised. even though you hid the thread from us for several days, we managed to keep it alive and force you to put it up again. well, this is that audience you are dealing with. we will not forget about this, the same way we havent forgotten the mess with GTC, or your initial reaction when T20 incident, or your attittude towards a skill queue.

the consecuences are completely deserved. i am down to 1 account from 3. enjoy your new status, ex-Cool-and-different-company-that-cares-for-its-player-base.

Komiliya Jenius
Posted - 2008.11.10 14:55:00 - [5415]
 

We are still displeased at you CCP, no matter what expansions you give us. More like a "Contraction".

Lady Godgifu
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.11.10 18:17:00 - [5416]
 

It is a real shame that CCP haven't responded to this or put things back to the way they were, I really thought they would. I was hoping they would before my sub ran out, looks like I won't be coming back to Eve now Crying or Very sad

WakyWooky
Posted - 2008.11.10 19:53:00 - [5417]
 

Hi mom, im in a ghost thingy

Razz

Mia Aires
Posted - 2008.11.10 21:30:00 - [5418]
 

Edited by: Mia Aires on 10/11/2008 21:30:34
it's a ghost game....it was there - I'm sure...but now it's gone...

Delos Korelian
Amarr
Korelian's Salvage and Reclamation
Posted - 2008.11.10 21:33:00 - [5419]
 

Well, lately I have been rather lackluster about logging into eve or playing the game. I am sort of biding my time till my subscription expires on the 31st of December. I know, rather long time to wait, but that's what I get for paying in advance.

What I am really paying attention to is the Quantum Rise thread and the disaster the so called expansion is turning out to be. Most interesting is the whinage from a number of fanboys who took the party line of "Ghost Training" was "unfair "and bad for the game" are now whetting themselves there, complaining of how evil CCP is.

Someone in this thread mentioned that given time CCP will do something to upset even greater number of players, even the fan boys, and I honestly feel that this time is now. There is so much that has been completely wrung out and taken apart and put back together again in the last year, there is so much backlash at the poor customer service and communication, there seems to be too many new people running this game who simply have no clue how the game was working before, and finally, it is clear and glaring that the almighty dollar/pound/euro has completely overtaken the CCP as a company.

Where the game was created and ran by a few very idealistic individuals, with clear and very unorthodox vision for the game, we are now faced with replacements who are seeing this game as a short term cash cow, something to capitalize on as quickly as possible, and then left to limp on its own.

The short term gains of revenue has clearly overtaken the long and thoughtful approach which used to be practiced by the developer team.
More and more I see disenchantment, more and more I see people who come and go. More and more I see people lose interest in playing EVE due to the erratic behavior of the developers.

The gimmicks have replaced the content, the quantity has replaced quality, attention to the customer has been replaced by pettiness and robotic responses to the petitions. Community suggestions not listened to, a veneer of transparency created by CSM, and yet the actual player body is neutered by CCP and remains largely a show for the ignorant public.

Maybe I am just depressed that the game I loved so much, and people who ran it, whom I respected so much, is no longer the "best ever MMORPG out there," maybe I am depressed due to too many lies, too many "mistakes," too many half truths, and too many, and long ignored, issues, which are being swept under the rug, and covered up with massive verbiage with very little substance by CCP.

CCP got my money till the 31st, I can't help that, then I shall sell everything I own, drop my security status to -1.1 and place all the ISK on my head as bounty, following that I think I will be spending my hard earned money somewhere else.

Until then I will watch the developments and see what happens to this world I loved so much for so long.





Juicy Fruits
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.11.10 21:43:00 - [5420]
 

i think that point would be if they ever release an expansion that costs money tbh, not now.

Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Posted - 2008.11.10 22:40:00 - [5421]
 

Originally by: Seth Vorlar
And still no response to the playerbase ????


You can take the deafening silence as a response of a sort. The most disdainful response, a kind of "We don't owe you anything, just shut up and pay your sub, peons."

Tasty Bit
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.11.10 23:18:00 - [5422]
 

Originally by: Delos Korelian
Well, lately I have been rather lackluster about logging into eve or playing the game. I am sort of biding my time till my subscription expires on the 31st of December. I know, rather long time to wait, but that's what I get for paying in advance.

What I am really paying attention to is the Quantum Rise thread and the disaster the so called expansion is turning out to be. Most interesting is the whinage from a number of fanboys who took the party line of "Ghost Training" was "unfair "and bad for the game" are now whetting themselves there, complaining of how evil CCP is.

Someone in this thread mentioned that given time CCP will do something to upset even greater number of players, even the fan boys, and I honestly feel that this time is now. There is so much that has been completely wrung out and taken apart and put back together again in the last year, there is so much backlash at the poor customer service and communication, there seems to be too many new people running this game who simply have no clue how the game was working before, and finally, it is clear and glaring that the almighty dollar/pound/euro has completely overtaken the CCP as a company.

Where the game was created and ran by a few very idealistic individuals, with clear and very unorthodox vision for the game, we are now faced with replacements who are seeing this game as a short term cash cow, something to capitalize on as quickly as possible, and then left to limp on its own.

The short term gains of revenue has clearly overtaken the long and thoughtful approach which used to be practiced by the developer team.
More and more I see disenchantment, more and more I see people who come and go. More and more I see people lose interest in playing EVE due to the erratic behavior of the developers.

The gimmicks have replaced the content, the quantity has replaced quality, attention to the customer has been replaced by pettiness and robotic responses to the petitions. Community suggestions not listened to, a veneer of transparency created by CSM, and yet the actual player body is neutered by CCP and remains largely a show for the ignorant public.

Maybe I am just depressed that the game I loved so much, and people who ran it, whom I respected so much, is no longer the "best ever MMORPG out there," maybe I am depressed due to too many lies, too many "mistakes," too many half truths, and too many, and long ignored, issues, which are being swept under the rug, and covered up with massive verbiage with very little substance by CCP.

CCP got my money till the 31st, I can't help that, then I shall sell everything I own, drop my security status to -1.1 and place all the ISK on my head as bounty, following that I think I will be spending my hard earned money somewhere else.

Until then I will watch the developments and see what happens to this world I loved so much for so long.



If I could make this my signature, I would.

Seth Vorlar
Posted - 2008.11.10 23:41:00 - [5423]
 

Originally by: Delos Korelian
Well, lately I have been rather lackluster about logging into eve or playing the game. I am sort of biding my time till my subscription expires on the 31st of December. I know, rather long time to wait, but that's what I get for paying in advance.

What I am really paying attention to is the Quantum Rise thread and the disaster the so called expansion is turning out to be. Most interesting is the whinage from a number of fanboys who took the party line of "Ghost Training" was "unfair "and bad for the game" are now whetting themselves there, complaining of how evil CCP is.

Someone in this thread mentioned that given time CCP will do something to upset even greater number of players, even the fan boys, and I honestly feel that this time is now. There is so much that has been completely wrung out and taken apart and put back together again in the last year, there is so much backlash at the poor customer service and communication, there seems to be too many new people running this game who simply have no clue how the game was working before, and finally, it is clear and glaring that the almighty dollar/pound/euro has completely overtaken the CCP as a company.

Where the game was created and ran by a few very idealistic individuals, with clear and very unorthodox vision for the game, we are now faced with replacements who are seeing this game as a short term cash cow, something to capitalize on as quickly as possible, and then left to limp on its own.

The short term gains of revenue has clearly overtaken the long and thoughtful approach which used to be practiced by the developer team.
More and more I see disenchantment, more and more I see people who come and go. More and more I see people lose interest in playing EVE due to the erratic behavior of the developers.

The gimmicks have replaced the content, the quantity has replaced quality, attention to the customer has been replaced by pettiness and robotic responses to the petitions. Community suggestions not listened to, a veneer of transparency created by CSM, and yet the actual player body is neutered by CCP and remains largely a show for the ignorant public.

Maybe I am just depressed that the game I loved so much, and people who ran it, whom I respected so much, is no longer the "best ever MMORPG out there," maybe I am depressed due to too many lies, too many "mistakes," too many half truths, and too many, and long ignored, issues, which are being swept under the rug, and covered up with massive verbiage with very little substance by CCP.

CCP got my money till the 31st, I can't help that, then I shall sell everything I own, drop my security status to -1.1 and place all the ISK on my head as bounty, following that I think I will be spending my hard earned money somewhere else.

Until then I will watch the developments and see what happens to this world I loved so much for so long.







QFT

Sad

Khamal Jolstien
Caldari
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.11.11 00:29:00 - [5424]
 

Originally by: Delos Korelian
Well, lately I have been rather lackluster about logging into eve or playing the game. I am sort of biding my time till my subscription expires on the 31st of December. I know, rather long time to wait, but that's what I get for paying in advance.

What I am really paying attention to is the Quantum Rise thread and the disaster the so called expansion is turning out to be. Most interesting is the whinage from a number of fanboys who took the party line of "Ghost Training" was "unfair "and bad for the game" are now whetting themselves there, complaining of how evil CCP is.

Someone in this thread mentioned that given time CCP will do something to upset even greater number of players, even the fan boys, and I honestly feel that this time is now. There is so much that has been completely wrung out and taken apart and put back together again in the last year, there is so much backlash at the poor customer service and communication, there seems to be too many new people running this game who simply have no clue how the game was working before, and finally, it is clear and glaring that the almighty dollar/pound/euro has completely overtaken the CCP as a company.

Where the game was created and ran by a few very idealistic individuals, with clear and very unorthodox vision for the game, we are now faced with replacements who are seeing this game as a short term cash cow, something to capitalize on as quickly as possible, and then left to limp on its own.

The short term gains of revenue has clearly overtaken the long and thoughtful approach which used to be practiced by the developer team.
More and more I see disenchantment, more and more I see people who come and go. More and more I see people lose interest in playing EVE due to the erratic behavior of the developers.

The gimmicks have replaced the content, the quantity has replaced quality, attention to the customer has been replaced by pettiness and robotic responses to the petitions. Community suggestions not listened to, a veneer of transparency created by CSM, and yet the actual player body is neutered by CCP and remains largely a show for the ignorant public.

Maybe I am just depressed that the game I loved so much, and people who ran it, whom I respected so much, is no longer the "best ever MMORPG out there," maybe I am depressed due to too many lies, too many "mistakes," too many half truths, and too many, and long ignored, issues, which are being swept under the rug, and covered up with massive verbiage with very little substance by CCP.

CCP got my money till the 31st, I can't help that, then I shall sell everything I own, drop my security status to -1.1 and place all the ISK on my head as bounty, following that I think I will be spending my hard earned money somewhere else.

Until then I will watch the developments and see what happens to this world I loved so much for so long.




Could not have said it better myself. I just may link this post in my signature.

Apertotes
Posted - 2008.11.12 01:05:00 - [5425]
 

Originally by: CCP tortifrans
...But it's also a company. We make a product, sell it, get salaries and then continue maintaining the product and making it better[...]We figure out how to maximize our returns


ok, so its for the money. no need to be ashamed. you are just like any other company, nothing less, NOTHING MORE. but you used to be like no other company. for many of us that is a step back.

Originally by: CCP tortifrans
[...]But recently we have seen a surge in this behavior in a way that we were essentially supporting and maintaining a large number of customers that weren't paying us regular subscriptions.


so, you thought that those players were not inline with your goal of making more money. well, i disagree.

when a player buys a 30 day subscription and then lets it go inactive while training a long skill, its because he is closer to quiting than to subscribing full time. with this clever move, you are forcing him to choose. most of them will chose to quit.

thus, you have gone from 6 months of subscription every year, to nothing.

now, lets go back a few lines. you were doing this because of the money. but this is gonna make your income lower than before. how is it not an epic fail?


Originally by: CCP tortifrans

1. There was a way to progress a character in EVE without an active subscription

2. CCP noticed a surge in the trend and decided to fix the leak


mmm, interesting trend. i guess at CCP they have taken it very seriusly and studied the matter. there must be a reason why this is a trend. maybe the game is not as interesting as before. maybe a large part of the playerbase is disappointed with the recent CCP decisions, maybe some players believe that the game has lost what made it special.

after carefully studying all this options, CCP's reaction is...

Originally by: CCP tortifrans
3. Players now have to pay a subscription for characters to have them progress


Rolling Eyes good job

Cyrus XII
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.11.12 03:40:00 - [5426]
 

It just needs to be said that I think this is utter horse crap.

But I'm sure you don't really care what nearly 200 pages of complaints have to say so why put effort into this post?

Asses.

meepakbong
Posted - 2008.11.12 03:49:00 - [5427]
 

I am a perfect example of why the decision to end "ghost training" is a bad one. I admittedly took some time off from the game but would come back every now and again with a one month subscription and train up some skills and leave again. I certainly lost some training time over the course of the year that I was mostly away, but the incentive to come back and essentially get more than one month's worth of training for one month's subscription was appealing enough to keep me involved. Now, I'm back as a full time subscriber and have been for several months. In essense, you have forced Eve to become an all-or-nothing proposition for me. I fear that if I do decide to leave the game for a time again--and ghost training is still abolished--I will not be coming back.

Do you like apples CCP?

If so...

How do you like them apples?


Delver Rootnose
DAEDALUS X
Damu'Khonde
Posted - 2008.11.12 06:51:00 - [5428]
 

Never posted on Eve-Online forums before. I don't much like the low regard posters are kept in. Ghost training was one of the things that kept me coming back. I don't do much more than help people out, do the ocassional mission and chat on the NPC corp channel. I have taken a lot of changes to the game, sometimes with the usual whining and usually with no real worries. But the latest stack of changes has made me give up.

This will be my only post. I know everyone else has made theirs, and some have quit. I can only say now, that enough is enough. Ghost training was most of it, other parts are the just deployed patch. Sometimes it just feels like a losing battle.

Goodbye to those who I got to know and farewell to new guys who will come and try this game. I wish you the best of luck. My stuff has already been given. I just wanted to post in a epic thread. Nothing more to say.


Tivookz
Caldari
Long Dong Corp
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2008.11.12 07:54:00 - [5429]
 

Lots of good posts have been made lately.

One thing I keep thinking about though is how CCP tend to brag about the rising subscriber numbers.

2006: 100,000 or something like that

2008: 241,000~ according to the fanfest videos.

2009: I bet it will be less than 241k considering how many people have threatened to quit in this thread alone.

Will they remove the brag scene on the next fanfest? Laughing

Tiv

Sloeb
Posted - 2008.11.12 12:20:00 - [5430]
 

Why not just allow simultaneous skill training of all 3 characters per account.


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