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Stormwind Bloodfeather
Minmatar
Fer Lomarcan
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:00:00 - [3181]
 

Originally by: WeightedCompanionCube
Originally by: Lustralis


But of course, a lot of people with ghost training accounts are going to cancel them, so I don't think CCP are doing this for the money! Way to shoot yourself in the foot.


No, people who have invested time, money and effort will not simply throw that away out of spite. Accounts will be consolidated first and characters trained to a point where they are useful rather then a path with as many long skills as possible to save money.


I shut down 8 everquest accounts, with most of the 6-7 characters on each of the accounts time geared, after one too many slaps in the face by sony. People who invest time and money in a game DO throw it all away when they get disrespected enough by the company who's wages they help pay.

Your an Optimist, this is good, i'm a pessimist. I see a trend, and from my experience with MMORPG companies I doubt this trend will be reversed. It starts with the subtle creep of assuming your subscribers are idiots and you can **** all over them at will. For a while this thinking works, but eventually all it leaves in the game is isk/gold/plat farmers and the few die hards who are too stuborn, or are to addicted to stop putting up with it.

Stormwind

Zebs Clone
Minmatar
Zebra Corp
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:01:00 - [3182]
 

this is very simply ccp showing the player base that they are only intrested in cash, they want more from every player. milk the cash cows for as long as we can

you ccp have lost all respect with me and most of the other players i share my eve time with. the number of alt account this is going to drive in to the coldness of the dead account pile will be quite shocking.

R.I.P. all and any respect we once showed you. you have shown us that cash and lies are the order of the new f**ked up vision that is CCP

Fresh Prince
For us all
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:02:00 - [3183]
 

Subscription successfully canceled

Click here to continue



Cosy Ceaon
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:04:00 - [3184]
 

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/disabling-ghost-training-the-blog-edition-page-0-103.zip

103 page of this thread in zip just maybe CCP delete this thread Rolling Eyes

Gabriel Virtus
hirr
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:05:00 - [3185]
 

Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 15/10/2008 09:12:05
I understand that this is a business, but few businesses remain viable when they treat their customers like utter trash, lie to them, and provide terrible customer support. The way that CCP has dealt with this issue is the most troubling part of this fiasco. I have never used ghosttraining, although I might have used it by accident for 1 day here and 2 days there when I was busy and didn't realize that my subscription should cancel.

Anyway, my thoughts on getting rid of ghost training:

1. Ghost training is not a "bug" in the game. Not only has it been around since EVE began, it was also a FEATURE listed in the player guide that I read before I decided to start playing EVE. Please do not try and cloud this issue, you all know this claim is utter nonsense and frankly, anything you say otherwise is a bit of a stretch considering the amount of respect you all just lost.

2. As a viable option to raise revenue, it will not succeed. Many people have alt accounts, sometimes 4-5. These people cannot ghost train their characters for months because very few skills take months to train, they have to RESUBSCRIBE in order to change skills. The subscriptions of these accounts, even ones that are "abusing" ghost training are intermetant at worse, with the player still subscribing a significant amount of time. With this change, and the broader economic problems many of us face, this intermittent subscription is no longer viable. I for one will have to cancel my alt account because I do not play it enough to warrant the subscription fee. It seems that many people, especially with a few alt accounts will be in the same boat as I am and will cancel these accounts permanently. Intermittent subscription = more money than no subscriptions at all. I am sure the number of accounts will decrease while people pay to have their alts switched to their main's account. And only pay 1 subscription fee.

3. The claim that inactive characters bog down your database is frankly a joke, if the training numbers of a few thousand ghosttraining accounts bog down your system, you have much much bigger problems than this could ever fix. This claim is obviously another BS cloud you are trying to throw up. Sometimes I wonder if you think we are all kids?

4. The claim that players should not progress when they do not play is a strange claim from EVE. The point of this game, the point that sets it apart from all other MMOs is that you do gain skills when you are not online. I am not sure why this seems to be such a hard concept to understand. The removal of the ghost training option seems to be counter to this major aspect of EVE Online, that EVE and real life can be done simultaneously without being significantly hurt. This is just making EVE seem more and more like WoW.

5. Doing this major change with 2 days notice, especially after a "power of two" campaign seems a bit underhanded. Why didn't you tell players that their alt accounts you were marketing them would absolutely not have this feature, especially when you knew this was going to happen during the marketing campaign.

I, for one, am not quitting EVE. While this issue has made me lose a lot of respect for CCP in general and be suspicious of any further comments they have on topic, it is not enough to make me quit entirely, but I will be canceling my 2 alt accounts completely. I think this is the WRONG direction for this game to be going and I think this will end up hurting the game and the company in the long run. If this sort of behavior continues in the future, I will leaving the EVE universe for good. The camel's back is almost broken.

Anyway, Flame on
-GV

Edit: I have seen this trend destroy MMORPGs for nearly a decade. EA and Origin Systems destroyed Ultima Online through their money grubbing and utter lack of interest with their players, Sony destroyed Everquest with the same thing. It is sad that I think CCP and EVE Online is going down the same path.

RedSplat
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:06:00 - [3186]
 

Eh....POV from a new player: that second account i was thinking about? Not going to happen.

Donniello Darkini
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:07:00 - [3187]
 

In my opinion, this is a huge mistake.

I have only used Ghost Training once and that was this past month because of money issues. I have always thought it was a great feature. The only reason that I haven't used it more is that I am active with my accounts in other ways. It is good to know it is there. Also, it is good to know that friends can take a break and come back with a skill trained. It benefits everyone. Taking it away hurts all sorts of players on different levels.

Since skills are time based and not action based, it seems a benefit to keep Ghost Training. If people want to keep their skill training going, for the most part, they would have to resubscribe around 6 times a year. That is still 6 months of money per year per account - $90. Now you are going to have people consolidating accounts, which you will make the initial transfer fee (if they consolidate), but after that you lose that $90 per year.

I don't see why Ghost Training is unfair to people that don't use it. They have (had) the opportunity to use it if they wished. They just decided to make ISK, blow things up, mine, etc.

CCP, your reasons are sad, sad, sad...
1. With the economy the way it is and another recent change you have made, you decided that Ghost Training was the cause of the decline in you making money? Do you think that people would not have unsubscribed their accounts during a time of financial issues if Ghost Training wasn't enabled? I, personally, would rather buy a loaf of bread, a container of milk, and a stick of butter to survive than pay $15 for a game.
2. Ghost Training has been a feature whether people use it or not for 5 years. Why lie to us?
3. Server lag...pfft, whatever.

Please change your mind, we will all forgive you if you do. Don't let pride stand in the way. I foresee a great loss if you go through with this. If you need money raise the subscription price by a dollar or two. ...OR, is that just around the corner, too?

OneSock
Crown Industries
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:07:00 - [3188]
 

From the blog:

Quote:
we were essentially supporting and maintaining a large number of customers that weren't paying us regular subscriptions. That's not fair towards CCP as a service provider and it's not fair towards other players that pay a subscription


I mentioned this in an earlier post but I want to bring up this issue about fairness.

As a casual player I pay my 2month GTC same as any other player. However due to work and RL stuff I may only get what 5-6 game hours a week out of my subscription. Others may get 10-12 hours a week or more. I'm effectively paying double per hour actually played, subsidizing others who are on-line while I cannot be. Do you really think that's fair to me ?

Ghost training goes some way to make up for that. If CCP don't want casual players like me then let them say so. There's other games out there for me to play.

Until we pay per hour online don't talk to me about what is fair.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:14:00 - [3189]
 

Originally by: OneSock
As a casual player I pay my 2month GTC same as any other player. However due to work and RL stuff I may only get what 5-6 game hours a week out of my subscription. Others may get 10-12 hours a week or more. I'm effectively paying double per hour actually played, subsidizing others who are on-line while I cannot be. Do you really think that's fair to me ?

Yes. It is completely fair.
EVE is not charged per hour online, it is charge for the OPTION to be online for 1/2/3/6/12 months at a time. Whether you CHOOSE to be online is up to you!

YOU are the one who CHOOSE to only be online 5-6 hours per week, so YOU have obviously decided that this is fair (otherwise you wouldn't pay).
Originally by: OneSock
Ghost training goes some way to make up for that. If CCP don't want casual players like me then let them say so. There's other games out there for me to play.

So because you CHOOSE not to use your subscription, CCP should give you free stuff? I'd like you to try to make that argument with an auto rental company....
"Well, I've not used the car I leased from you as much as I could, so I think you should give me some free gas!"

And no, if you like spaceship MMO's there AREN'T any other MMO games for you to play Twisted Evil

Freezehunter
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:15:00 - [3190]
 

Originally by: The Ubernomicon


More like "OWNED Alliance".


That's alot coming from a guy that is in a corp called "eight year old girls", mister "i am a goon, phear me..."

Zacheria Malfor
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:21:00 - [3191]
 

Edited by: Zacheria Malfor on 15/10/2008 09:38:57
CCP's stance is evident through the lack of responses in order to try reconcile the player base and their tactics of making quick alterations to various pieces of information dotted around the Eve-O website in regards to ghost training being a feature. Add onto this the convenient "disappearance" of this thread in the information portal, it appears their stance is firm.

I have been playing Eve for over 5 years and have taken a few breaks in my time, in all honesty I have only utilised ghost training over the past year due to real life commitments which have affected the amount of play time I have. One thing that kept me coming back was that I knew my skill was done, however, in saying this I have come back before hand when skills haven't been training during my inactivity.

An honest answer from CCP in regards to their feelings on why this needs to be done is obviously too much to ask. I have to agree with the statement that since all the old devs and community support disappeared the game has taken a turn for the worse.

The number one thing though which disgusts me in regards to this change is the attitude CCP have taken. The way it has been done has been is the subject of countless posts here so there is little point reiterating this.

In the unlikely event a member of CCP is reading this who actually cares about the community, stop treating us like morons, be honest with us... do the rational thing... TALK TO US. Don't treat us like children playing in your sand pit, treat us like adults paying for a product and service which you provide.

I would ask for this change to be delayed and subjected to review, but again this is probably too much to ask. I will hang around in Eve for a while longer, it is still one of the best MMO's on the market but my faith in the development team, the customer support team and CCP as a company has all but vanished.

To those who will no doubt claim this is an emo whine or "can I have your stuff", grow up. If you cannot see there is something wrong in the approach CCP has taken in regards to this change then maybe you need to open your eyes.

Edit - Typo

/Zacheria Malfor

Rhiannon Le'Tent
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:21:00 - [3192]
 

Edited by: Rhiannon Le''Tent on 15/10/2008 09:39:32
Edited by: Rhiannon Le''Tent on 15/10/2008 09:26:45
CCP should change their name name to CCCP (USSR) for their underhanded "Stalin" like tactics.

1) "we're fixing a bug" even though it's sold as a feature in the player guide. We are not idiots CCP we all know it's just a money grab.
2) The feature mentioned above no longer appears in the player guide
hmm there's a surprise.
3) This forum for some "inexplicable" reason has lost it's main link on the information portal page, so if you didn't already have it in you browser history bad luck you can't view or post regarding it.. again why are we not surprised.
4) Last year's "boost patch" complete with hidden nerfs

For speaking against the establishment I expect the secret police to arrive momentarily.

Personally I don't give a rats about the change, have never ghost trained, I have 2 fully paid up accounts a year in advance. Well until next march anyway.

Why not just tell the "Truth" behind the change instead of trying to get us believe the poorly though up crap that you have fed us in way of an explanation. I know six year olds that could come with a more believable lie than that.

Marketing departments the world over do this all the time, come up with a "way to make more money," then they go ahead and announce it, without first consulting with anyone in in the company that has common sense and asking "will this work?" Obviously your marketing department is just as inept as the one at the company I work for. Our marketing department came up with a way to flush 200k down the toilet, I think if this change is implemented and you only loose 200k of revenue you should consider yourselves lucky. You need to fire your marketing dept and hire someone with common sense that actually plays & pays for the game. eg. Any of the commentators from the EVE PvP tournaments could do a far better job I'm sure, or at least employ them as a sounding board with veto power over the dumb asses that come up with these great ideas.


edited to fix spelling

Charis D'Asgar
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:22:00 - [3193]
 

I wont talk about fairness and so on... I'm upset :(

If CCP really cares about their customers - than let them to learn skills in "half-inactive" state for less payment, without possibility to go online and play. It would be like mobile operators keep you phone number for you for less pay without letting use it for calls. Any time, player see, that he couldn't play for a long time - he switches his account to that state and continues learning skills without playing... It may be needs restrictions like - not more often then once per month and not longer than a month or so...
Should be appropriate decision.

PS. Sorry, my English is not so good.

Jane Rambo
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:29:00 - [3194]
 

I would like to take this time to formally invite CCP Wrangler and t0rfifrans to join GoonFleet!

These pubbies are all drowning in salty tears shed from their own eyes! Twisted Evil

Ayrion Centare
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:32:00 - [3195]
 

Edited by: Ayrion Centare on 15/10/2008 09:39:44
Originally by: Mallikanth
CCP asking people to pay to use their services? How outrageous Rolling EyesShocked


The outrage is how CCP managed this "bug."

Their explanation is that ghost training was the result of a bug all along and for years, for whatever technical reason, they couldn't fix it.

This bug was then documented in their player manual as a feature for people with RL issues and for those that needed a break from Eve.

They turned an unintended bug into a free service for those who purchased a subscription to Eve without telling subscribers it's actually a bug all along which caused the unintended free service and it will no longer exist once the bug is resolved.

For those of us who purchased a subscription to Eve with this feature in mind as a great way to balance life and a MMO without needlessly wasting money on accounts sitting idle, this is an important selling point.

Now, CCP's excuse claims the bug being documented in the new player manual as a feature was due to poor communication and at this I am especially outraged about...

They are saying that, for all this time, they have been actively trying to resolve the bug and, for all this time, they have documented the bug as a feature, all without anyone in the company putting the two together and figuring out the impact this will have once the bug gets resolved?

Ghost training isn't a little feature hidden away somewhere, it is an incredibly unique and distinctive feature among the MMO community. For anyone who did some research about EVE before purchasing the time-based skill training feature and the ghost training feature literally set EVE apart from everyone else.

And now CCP is saying it was a bug all along and they made a mistake by documenting it, which persisted in their documentation for years and became well known as a unique and distinctive feature, and now they wish to charge for it so all that was said and done in the past should now be forgotten and no compromise will be made for their mistake which had persisted so long.

This is the outrage for me.

CCP has the right to change and charge for whatever they want when it comes to Eve, I don't disagree with that, but the way in which they have conducted themselves with this particular change has been dishonest and deceptive.

EDiTS: Typos

Max Khaos
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:32:00 - [3196]
 

If your not payin then your not playin ........

No if's or but's .......

Pay up or shutup ...

Oftherocks
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:39:00 - [3197]
 

Originally by: Max Khaos
If your not payin then your not playin ........

No if's or but's .......

Pay up or shutup ...


Playin' ain't gettin' sp, if you think it is you really don't get eve.

Leica Stroganow
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:42:00 - [3198]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: OneSock
As a casual player I pay my 2month GTC same as any other player. However due to work and RL stuff I may only get what 5-6 game hours a week out of my subscription. Others may get 10-12 hours a week or more. I'm effectively paying double per hour actually played, subsidizing others who are on-line while I cannot be. Do you really think that's fair to me ?

Yes. It is completely fair.
EVE is not charged per hour online, it is charge for the OPTION to be online for 1/2/3/6/12 months at a time. Whether you CHOOSE to be online is up to you!

YOU are the one who CHOOSE to only be online 5-6 hours per week, so YOU have obviously decided that this is fair (otherwise you wouldn't pay).
Originally by: OneSock
Ghost training goes some way to make up for that. If CCP don't want casual players like me then let them say so. There's other games out there for me to play.

So because you CHOOSE not to use your subscription, CCP should give you free stuff? I'd like you to try to make that argument with an auto rental company....
"Well, I've not used the car I leased from you as much as I could, so I think you should give me some free gas!"

And no, if you like spaceship MMO's there AREN'T any other MMO games for you to play Twisted Evil



Are you an CCP alt ?

Rinaldo Titano
Caldari
Caldari Elite Force
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:43:00 - [3199]
 

Originally by: Ayrion Centare
Edited by: Ayrion Centare on 15/10/2008 09:39:44
Originally by: Mallikanth
CCP asking people to pay to use their services? How outrageous Rolling EyesShocked


The outrage is how CCP managed this "bug."

Their explanation is that ghost training was the result of a bug all along and for years, for whatever technical reason, they couldn't fix it.

This bug was then documented in their player manual as a feature for people with RL issues and for those that needed a break from Eve.

They turned an unintended bug into a free service for those who purchased a subscription to Eve without telling subscribers it's actually a bug all along which caused the unintended free service and it will no longer exist once the bug is resolved.

For those of us who purchased a subscription to Eve with this feature in mind as a great way to balance life and a MMO without needlessly wasting money on accounts sitting idle, this is an important selling point.

Now, CCP's excuse claims the bug being documented in the new player manual as a feature was due to poor communication and at this I am especially outraged about...

They are saying that, for all this time, they have been actively trying to resolve the bug and, for all this time, they have documented the bug as a feature, all without anyone in the company putting the two together and figuring out the impact this will have once the bug gets resolved?

Ghost training isn't a little feature hidden away somewhere, it is an incredibly unique and distinctive feature among the MMO community. For anyone who did some research about EVE before purchasing the time-based skill training feature and the ghost training feature literally set EVE apart from everyone else.

And now CCP is saying it was a bug all along and they made a mistake by documenting it, which persisted in their documentation for years and became well known as a unique and distinctive feature, and now they wish to charge for it so all that was said and done in the past should now be forgotten and no compromise will be made for their mistake which had persisted so long.

This is the outrage for me.

CCP has the right to change and charge for whatever they want when it comes to Eve, I don't disagree with that, but the way in which they have conducted themselves with this particular change has been dishonest and deceptive.

EDiTS: Typos


This and 10000x This

Bukkaboo
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:44:00 - [3200]
 

CCP made a game, E-I-E-I-O.
And on that game they made a nerf, E-I-E-I-O.
With a failure here and a failure there
Here a whine whine, there a whine whine, everywhere a whine whine
CCP had a game, E-I-E-I-O...

OneSock
Crown Industries
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:44:00 - [3201]
 

Originally by: Kerfira

So because you CHOOSE not to use your subscription, CCP should give you free stuff? I'd like you to try to make that argument with an auto rental company....
"Well, I've not used the car I leased from you as much as I could, so I think you should give me some free gas!"

And no, if you like spaceship MMO's there AREN'T any other MMO games for you to play Twisted Evil



It's not so much a choice as simply not having the time. And yes I may choose to ditch Eve with this change as it's simply not worth the sub anymore. There are other things besides spaceships ;)

But to use the auto rental example is completely wrong. You pay a fixed fee because while that resource (the car) is with you, it cannot be given to anyone else to generate revenue.

With Eve, no resource is being drained while a player is off-line. CCP lose nothing.

As another example (a better one). You can get a DVD rental deal where you pay a sub for unlimited rentals. If your a heavy user this works out well. If your not then it's not great value. For this reason a lot of DVD rental companies provide a credit system where you pay a low fixed fee per rental. Maybe CCP should give it some thought.

Leica Stroganow
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:45:00 - [3202]
 

Originally by: Charis D'Asgar
I wont talk about fairness and so on... I'm upset :(

If CCP really cares about their customers - than let them to learn skills in "half-inactive" state for less payment, without possibility to go online and play. It would be like mobile operators keep you phone number for you for less pay without letting use it for calls. Any time, player see, that he couldn't play for a long time - he switches his account to that state and continues learning skills without playing... It may be needs restrictions like - not more often then once per month and not longer than a month or so...
Should be appropriate decision.

PS. Sorry, my English is not so good.


no prob i understand you Very Happy

But CCP not even cares to give us a standing about this "case"
this would be a way

Georn
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:46:00 - [3203]
 

Originally by: Stormwind Bloodfeather


I shut down 8 everquest accounts, with most of the 6-7 characters on each of the accounts time geared, after one too many slaps in the face by sony. People who invest time and money in a game DO throw it all away when they get disrespected enough by the company who's wages they help pay.


wow.. Kudos..
All at the same time or in the course of years?..
If you used 8 EQ2 Accounts at the same time...
Can I have your stuff when you leave rl? (c;

Azuraito
Conspiracy of Silence
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:48:00 - [3204]
 

Any chance CCP could post how many account were disabled from training? Laughing


Leica Stroganow
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:48:00 - [3205]
 

Originally by: Max Khaos
If your not payin then your not playin ........

No if's or but's .......

Pay up or shutup ...


CCP alt too?

Malaan Tabfassh
The Flowing Penguins
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:49:00 - [3206]
 

No good.

I could have written it a bit more detailed, but chances are high someone did it already on the last 107 pages for me.

Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:50:00 - [3207]
 

Edited by: Damned Force on 15/10/2008 09:50:28
Originally by: Leica Stroganow
Originally by: Max Khaos
If your not payin then your not playin ........

No if's or but's .......

Pay up or shutup ...


CCP alt too?


Not sure. maybe just an a.s.s.h.o.l.e. Twisted Evil

or both

Leica Stroganow
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:51:00 - [3208]
 

Originally by: Azuraito
Any chance CCP could post how many account were disabled from training? Laughing




Ive reportet your post LaughingLaughingLaughing

As "interesting"

Patric Riegns
Minmatar
4S Corporation
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:51:00 - [3209]
 

Open letter to CCP

I have posted exactly once on the forum in my time in the game and that was about 50 pages ago in this topic. I used the words real or imagined in reference to lying and contempt. Thank you for clearing that up and leaving the one option.

Your actions in the events leading up to and including the continued absence of this thread after 24hrs of customer dissatisfaction are sickening.

Lets start with the removal of 30 day GTC move onto the power of two promotion and lastly the removal of ghost training. Now there are two possible scenarios there. That you are again demonstrating levels of incompetence breathtaking in there scope or you are happy to obtain money be deception.

The fact that the level of disgust generated by your actions is not reflected correctly on the Eve Information Portal can no longer be considered accidental. This is now a deliberate attempt to bury this. Explain how a company delivering a high tech product cannot solve a forum problem in 16 hours and counting.

I and many others unaffected by the ghost training are watching this and evaluating whether we actually want to do business with a company like yours any longer. Currently the answer is no.

Faekurias
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2008.10.15 09:51:00 - [3210]
 

Edited by: Faekurias on 15/10/2008 09:55:45
Originally by: Rhiannon Le'Tent
You need to fire your marketing dept and hire someone with common sense that actually plays & pays for the game. eg. Any of the commentators from the EVE PvP tournaments could do a far better job I'm sure, or at least employ them as a sounding board with veto power over the dumb asses that come up with these great ideas.




QFT

Edit: also, about ghost-training in general:
Don't really care about this change, don't think I've ever deliberately used it. Although I once paid for several months without the ability to log in and change skill. So paid for those months with no skill in training.


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