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blankseplocked Learning, learning skills a pointless mechanic?
 
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Quardol
Posted - 2008.10.06 12:22:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Kethot
Edited by: Kethot on 06/10/2008 12:17:56
It's probably a time sink method, since learning skills are mandatory for every character.

...

In other words, without those skills, people would train faster, earn ISK faster and pay less for the game.


This is exactly why learning skills will never go away. CCP is a business - the longer you pay, the more money they make.


UnzipRAR
Posted - 2008.10.07 01:14:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: UnzipRAR on 07/10/2008 01:22:04
Originally by: Arkeladin
Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is:

"I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"

If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic:

Patience.

The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :)

As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points.

Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away.

Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"

Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time.

Enough - go back to Counterstrike.






You are wrong, I am patient and so are people who have actually trained these skill, after all I did train them, but there is a difference between patience and taking the cake, these skills are just completely flawed, no point to them what so ever and frankly it gets to me a little because this is a month of game time and frankly they must be trained so frankly it's not an option so frankly whats the point? these points should be integrated in to the character creation process or completely removed and lower skill training time, this would result in the same amount of training time overall minus a month or so for all for LV4. and I don't even want to get started on training learning to LV5.

If thats being inpatient then I am Father ChristmasLaughing I am willing to play this game and put the time in to it, I have planned over a year ahead and I'm all for it, I just don't see the point on the learning skills, it's a complete drain on the game, from what I have seen so far this game is great, has some stuff I don't like but I'm not going to get in to that here, overall the game is great, I just do not understand why things like learning skills exist.

And why the hell do ships stop so far away from gates in auto pilot, there I said it lol, another whine, it's just pointless **** like this I seriously do...not...get...


Kethot
Ordo Drakonis
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2008.10.07 05:08:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: UnzipRAR

And why the hell do ships stop so far away from gates in auto pilot, there I said it lol, another whine, it's just pointless **** like this I seriously do...not...get...




Hauling is a big part of the game. Esentially, you are not allowed to earn money or be effective by doing nothing in EVE, that's why they stop so far. That's actually a good mechanic.

EVE is a game after all, some things don't make sense for the sake of practicality.

General Urlana
Posted - 2008.10.07 15:18:00 - [34]
 

Learning skills are a pain to train because you get no pew pew bonus or anything else right away. They may be a mistake but i think they add further depth to the game.

You can no longer look at a player and have an idea of what they might have trained. Some people don't train them very much, others max them out. A wise player will spend that month training them all but not everyone does it.

Now the player that did has an advantage over the other player by skills learned. So maybe they are both 6 months but player a trained learning and player b didn't do much with them. Player A now has a higher skill and deals more damage for example.

Just things like this i like with them. I'm not a fan of learning them because it is boring but i do like that element of rift between players in regards to them.

IsThereAnybodyOutThere
Posted - 2008.10.07 15:28:00 - [35]
 

/me wonders how many people "just got learning skills to IV, and think they are bad and want them removed" that really "just downloaded evemon and saw they could save 100 days by training 20 days worth of learning skills, which they dont want to do"

General Urlana
Posted - 2008.10.07 15:37:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: IsThereAnybodyOutThere
/me wonders how many people "just got learning skills to IV, and think they are bad and want them removed" that really "just downloaded evemon and saw they could save 100 days by training 20 days worth of learning skills, which they dont want to do"


This as well as people who want to just jump into the fray. *cough*WOW*cough*

People have to remember this is a very indepth game. Nothing is handed to you on a plater

Caiman Graystock
Caldari
Cornelius Starship and Computer Design
Posted - 2008.10.07 16:38:00 - [37]
 

Learning skills are the most useful skills in the game, they work 24/7 no matter what ship you are flying, what clone you are in or whether or not you are even logged into the game! I'm sure many, myself included, would kick up a stink if they were removed. They are a time sink of course, but no more than many other skills, the majority of which are limited to when you are flying a specific ship or using a specific weapon.

TraderJoe's
Posted - 2008.10.09 14:46:00 - [38]
 

The point of learning skills is to make it easier for experienced players to create alts. They are the ones who can realistically take the ‘normal’ path of creating a trial account, then training all the shorter learning skills during the two week period, then dark training one of the longer learning skills.

Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term.

Aticus Decorva
Posted - 2008.10.09 18:59:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Aticus Decorva on 09/10/2008 18:59:55
I have just started playing Eve and I have read about the learning skills and boosting them quickly to help you later on, which is as far as I see a good idea. The issue of wether they should be in the game or not is academic. The time required to learn a skill is based off of that skills primary & secondary attribute. So a mechanism for increasing said attributes is required and the learning skills and implants are your mechanism. I find it funny that the proposed solutions for removing the learning skills is to boost everyones attributes. This follows the average desire for bigger better faster that all gamers have :) An easier solution and one that still would allow for some modifications by implants would be to simply increase the time reduction % per attribute point and give people a little more flexiblity in distributing attributes in the creation process. This would over all have a lesser impact on the current game mechanics than simply boosting everyones stats.
Anyways thats my 3 cents

Lady Aja
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:24:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: UnzipRAR
Edited by: UnzipRAR on 07/10/2008 01:22:04
Originally by: Arkeladin
Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is:

"I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"

If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic:

Patience.

The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :)

As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points.

Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away.

Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"

Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time.

Enough - go back to Counterstrike.






You are wrong, I am patient and so are people who have actually trained these skill, after all I did train them, but there is a difference between patience and taking the cake, these skills are just completely flawed, no point to them what so ever and frankly it gets to me a little because this is a month of game time and frankly they must be trained so frankly it's not an option so frankly whats the point? these points should be integrated in to the character creation process or completely removed and lower skill training time, this would result in the same amount of training time overall minus a month or so for all for LV4. and I don't even want to get started on training learning to LV5.

If thats being inpatient then I am Father ChristmasLaughing I am willing to play this game and put the time in to it, I have planned over a year ahead and I'm all for it, I just don't see the point on the learning skills, it's a complete drain on the game, from what I have seen so far this game is great, has some stuff I don't like but I'm not going to get in to that here, overall the game is great, I just do not understand why things like learning skills exist.

And why the hell do ships stop so far away from gates in auto pilot, there I said it lol, another whine, it's just pointless **** like this I seriously do...not...get...




sorry for the huge QUOTE!

I do not see ccp removing learning skills in a huge hurry.
what noobs should do is... do two trial accounts. one does learning skills the other they get the basics for the game. be surprised on how MUCH learning one can get done in 3 weeks ( steam trial accounts )

I my self didnt do that I just did the mandatory grind lol.

and quit ya whining about autopilot from gates at 15km. youre lucky to get WTZ.


Lycana
White Rose Society
Posted - 2008.10.10 11:15:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: TraderJoe's
Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term.



It's not particularly damaging for a real newb to spend a month training skills to help missioning or mining or what have you and then spend the next month training learning skills. Or they could bounce back and forth, or just do the longer learning skill levels on days they aren't playing/while they sleep, or use learning skills as a time dump to avoid having a skill finish six hours before they can get back to the computer, etc.

You do want to get them trained up, of course, but since the gap widens over time, there's surprisingly little damage done by waiting a few weeks right at the start.

AKULA UrQuan
Caldari
Druuge Crimson Corporation
Posted - 2008.10.12 13:50:00 - [42]
 

Maybe I'm getting old.....

The time it takes a new player to train all the learning skills to advanced IV is less than the time I spend training one skill, one level. Neutral

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.10.12 14:33:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: TraderJoe's
The point of learning skills is to make it easier for experienced players to create alts. They are the ones who can realistically take the ‘normal’ path of creating a trial account, then training all the shorter learning skills during the two week period, then dark training one of the longer learning skills.

Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term.




The morons who advise newbies to do this should be banned tbh.

Avalon Champion
Black Thorne Corporation
Posted - 2008.10.13 07:35:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: TraderJoe's
The point of learning skills is to make it easier for experienced players to create alts. They are the ones who can realistically take the ‘normal’ path of creating a trial account, then training all the shorter learning skills during the two week period, then dark training one of the longer learning skills.

Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term.




The morons who advise newbies to do this should be banned tbh.


Couldnt agree more, but when asking in the starter corps which skills a noob should train the response is always Learning 5, basic learning skills 5, and advanced 4, along with Science 3 and cybernetics 3, before training anything else.

This is bad advice, IMOH, Learning skills are a necessity for any skill with a training time greater than x3, and level 5 skills, for noobs in the first month they arent really necessary, more necessary are the basic tier 1 skills like gunnery, mechanic, electronics, engineering, drones, spaceship command.

As for flying in a t1 frig for 30 days while they train learning why? you can easily be in a cruiser or bc within 28 days without the aid of learning skills (granted the fitting will be poor) but its achievable and good enough for PvE level 2's.

where does 30 days in a t1 frig come from, the basic skills are about 2 days each to level 4 from the base starting point, even the advanced Skills to level 3 are only 1 day each (max), so to get at +7 on any starting attribute thats 3 days, so 12-15 days to get a +7 on all skills, as you train the learning so the time drops on the others.

In fact you can probably drop the empathy and Presence from the equation for the first 2 months as charisma primarily only affects the social and leadership skills.

Personally I only have my basic learning skills to level 4, and the advanced to a combination of 3/4 and Its not impacted me that much (BS5 hac's, hics, recons, T2 weapons and mods), +3 implants for the last 6 months. On an alt i did do the basic learning skills to 5 and advanced to 4, and a 9-10 months down the road its started to pay off.

As for CCP getting rid of them and raising everyones base by +10, i dont think it will happen, as its far too ingrained in the system and too many have invested training time in those skills. The only way it could work is to give people the opportunity to reinvest the points in other skills.

NL Nataku
Manson Family
Corcoran State
Posted - 2008.10.13 15:37:00 - [45]
 

Well concerning the learning skills. It might be worth thinking about putting a next step of learning skills like the advanced skills we got. This helped people catch up a bit and get easier into the game. The longer the game progresses the bigger the cap becomes between new and older players. With extra learning skills availeble newer players could come into the game faster but i am happy with how it is but this might be a option and everybody could be happy with this because noone loses anything i think.

Now there is however something that i would love to see. At the time when i first started playing and was a complete noob i did not really know what my stats were for or how to put my stats correctly so i ended up just doing something. Now as time passes by your learn whats its for and it would be put into proper use. But that happened after i point i really did not wanted to start all over again and i certainly are not going to redo my character at this point in time. Now my stats are not that bad guesse however i would like to see them diffrently and i know a few of my friends do have horrible stats (i actually have one who has 13 charisma with only 2 points in the rank 1 skill for it).
So having the option to redo your stats would be something i would love to see and i would pay a small fee for it if it were possible. Yes i know this would allow people to switch from industry to combat but in the end what do you care if they can. And if its such a problem make it only availeble once a year.

Greetz Nata

Malcolm Gerwulf
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.10.14 07:29:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Quardol

This is exactly why learning skills will never go away [time sink]. CCP is a business - the longer you pay, the more money they make.



Absolutely agree, learning skills are an obvious time sink. It can be argued that they serve different purposes, but primarily they exist as a time sink to increase subscription time.

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: TraderJoe's
The point of learning skills is to make it easier for experienced players to create alts. They are the ones who can realistically take the ‘normal’ path of creating a trial account, then training all the shorter learning skills during the two week period, then dark training one of the longer learning skills.

Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term.



The morons who advise newbies to do this should be banned tbh.


Common sense dictates that the learning skills should be trained first in order to fly the ships you want. Most players that are dedicated enough to stick with the game will realize that the learning skills give more benefit when trained sooner rather than later. Therefore it feels like a lose-lose situation; either gimp yourself early by not training the learning skills (and forget the power-gamer mentality that demands maximum SP learning efficiency), or pay $20 for the first month spent in a T1 Frigate with few weapon/support skills. I imagine that most new players grab a few basic non-learning skills, but the pressure to train learning before hopping into a cruiser is very real.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:25:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Malcolm Gerwulf
Originally by: Quardol

This is exactly why learning skills will never go away [time sink]. CCP is a business - the longer you pay, the more money they make.



Absolutely agree, learning skills are an obvious time sink. It can be argued that they serve different purposes, but primarily they exist as a time sink to increase subscription time.

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: TraderJoe's
The point of learning skills is to make it easier for experienced players to create alts. They are the ones who can realistically take the ‘normal’ path of creating a trial account, then training all the shorter learning skills during the two week period, then dark training one of the longer learning skills.

Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term.



The morons who advise newbies to do this should be banned tbh.


Common sense dictates that the learning skills should be trained first in order to fly the ships you want. Most players that are dedicated enough to stick with the game will realize that the learning skills give more benefit when trained sooner rather than later. Therefore it feels like a lose-lose situation; either gimp yourself early by not training the learning skills (and forget the power-gamer mentality that demands maximum SP learning efficiency), or pay $20 for the first month spent in a T1 Frigate with few weapon/support skills. I imagine that most new players grab a few basic non-learning skills, but the pressure to train learning before hopping into a cruiser is very real.


You're speaking as if there's no middle ground between spinning ships until learnings are at 5+5 and not training any learnings at all. You can get something like 90-95% of the SP/Hr of a maxed learning skill guy with learnngs at 4+4, which takes, what? A month to do if you're spending 50% of your time on learnings, or even less if you leave charisma out. Skipping that last 100-200 SP/hr for a couple of months won't "cripple" anyone.

pimpdaddypayne
Caldari
Rising Devils
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2008.10.16 15:03:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: pimpdaddypayne on 16/10/2008 15:03:43
Edited by: pimpdaddypayne on 16/10/2008 15:03:12






Empress Helena
Posted - 2008.11.04 20:48:00 - [49]
 

one has to ask if those of you who think the learning skills are a time sink do you think collage in rl is a time sink? the fact that you invest the time to make you character "smarter" if you will is always good imo. not one person has to train them it is up to them...so if you don't like them don't train them and you will see as your fellow pilots advance quickly why you should have invested the time. It is a game but it is made to be fairly realistic and as we all should know things pay off better typically when you put in the time. if you want instant and fast you are in the wrong game plain and simple....

Uzume Ame
Gallente
Posted - 2008.11.05 00:21:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Malcolm Gerwulf

You're speaking as if there's no middle ground between spinning ships until learnings are at 5+5 and not training any learnings at all. You can get something like 90-95% of the SP/Hr of a maxed learning skill guy with learnngs at 4+4, which takes, what? A month to do if you're spending 50% of your time on learnings, or even less if you leave charisma out. Skipping that last 100-200 SP/hr for a couple of months won't "cripple" anyone.


Quoating for absolute truth. Just fire eve-mon and make 2/3 months plans and follow his advice.

Also any noob should gor for cybernetics I ASAP, heck +1/+2 implants are cheap.

Rachel Voegel
San Matar Trucking Company
Posted - 2008.11.05 10:31:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Dr NAthan
And the argument of "well you don't actually have to learn any of the learning skills, that's up to you" is just not valid, anyone who plays the game knows that these skills have to be learn no matter what. and eventually in almost all cases will be trained to lv4 minimum.

When I started this character I more or less alternated between combat skill and learning skill. One rule of thumb you could use is "only train the next level of learning skills when the combined time is less than the next skill you wish to train".

brinelan
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.05 19:00:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: brinelan on 05/11/2008 19:53:04
Edited by: brinelan on 05/11/2008 19:01:25
Originally by: Quardol


Common sense dictates that the learning skills should be trained first in order to fly the ships you want. Most players that are dedicated enough to stick with the game will realize that the learning skills give more benefit when trained sooner rather than later. Therefore it feels like a lose-lose situation; either gimp yourself early by not training the learning skills (and forget the power-gamer mentality that demands maximum SP learning efficiency), or pay $20 for the first month spent in a T1 Frigate with few weapon/support skills. I imagine that most new players grab a few basic non-learning skills, but the pressure to train learning before hopping into a cruiser is very real.


umm, i dont know if were playing the same game, but learning skills are not a prereq for any ship or module. There is no gimping yourself fo rnot training them up front unless youre a hardcore min-maxer.
I have been playing for well over 2 years, my learning skills still need work, and I am nowhere near gimped. The same goes for many eve players.

This "pressure" is only real because of players sayign that everyone must train learning skills and fly ibises for 2 months or else they cant train anything else.

New players should be told to mix in learning and combat skills so they can go out and do fun stuff and work on learning as they learn how to play.

Khoda Khan
Minmatar
Tolerancia Nihilum
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:58:00 - [53]
 

My first character started the game with around 13,000 sp. So many people in those days complained about the character creation process. It was unfair because if you knew what you were doing you could create a character with over 300k sp while most options left you in the 20,000 sp range. It was bad for the vaunted New Player Experience because it took sooooooo much training time to do anything at all.

I'd be willing to go back to pre-Revelations character creation if only to hear CCP's NUBs (New User Base) whine even more.

!Khoda



Keran Seil
Posted - 2008.11.13 07:12:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: MMXMMX
I think we need some new leurning books more leurning books = better .

The book :

Genius leurning Rank 15

Description :

A genius is a person of great intelligence or remarkable abilities in a specific subject, who shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect This book ads 2 points per level to all leurning skils.



You need to "leurn" how to spell "learn".Very Happy

Obyrith
Posted - 2008.11.16 21:19:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Obyrith on 17/11/2008 01:23:55
Originally by: Arkeladin

The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :)


Win.

Another way of looking at learning skills (which probably explains why CCP introduced them) is that the choice of whether or not to train them really confronts new players with the reality of investing months of time in playing the game. Having a mechanic which encourages long-term planning probably helps CCP keep people hooked as they wait for investments to pay off.

Obyrith
Posted - 2008.11.16 21:38:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Obyrith on 16/11/2008 21:50:34
Originally by: TraderJoe's

Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term.



Any new player who spends a month exclusively maxing Learning skills before they have other skills, is missing the point and deserves to be punished with a few weeks in a tier 1 frigate.

But it's nice that they have the option.

Any player who declares learning skills pointless and doesn't train them is also missing the point and deserves to wind up lagging behind players who trained them -

But it's nice that they have the option.

IMHO learning skills are another opportunity to do interesting cost-benefit analysis on my character's development. I didn't train them all early, but now I'm up to battleship and near soloing level 4s I'm taking them all up to 5/5/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4/4. I'm also delaying some depending on the non-learning skills I want to train in-between maxing particular attributes. This feels like a positive result of the system to me.

Acrel
Amarr
Blood Covenant
Posted - 2008.11.16 22:46:00 - [57]
 

Really what should be done is keeping learning skills in game and merging all the basic skills into 1 skill and advanced into another.. This way it would reduce the training time while adding the benefits and trials of doing learning skills.

Just a thought


Lusian
Posted - 2008.11.17 02:01:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Aesynil
I believe CCP devs have said learning skills were a mistake to implement, and something they regret, but they're stuck in the game now, as every character in existence knows them.


Yea, there really no way around them. All we cam do is hope they introduce learning skills that will increase the speed of skill training.

Acrel
Amarr
Blood Covenant
Posted - 2008.11.17 02:33:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Lusian
Originally by: Aesynil
I believe CCP devs have said learning skills were a mistake to implement, and something they regret, but they're stuck in the game now, as every character in existence knows them.


Yea, there really no way around them. All we cam do is hope they introduce learning skills that will increase the speed of skill training.


Already is.. Its the Learning Skill.

Koryvarn
Amarr
Posted - 2008.11.17 03:34:00 - [60]
 

The best solution to the learning skill problem is giving all characters all the basic learning skills to 4 right from the start.

New players wont have the cash to buy the advanced ones straight away, so they can train important things while they get the cash. EVE is much more exciting when you're training useful skills.


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