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Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2008.09.25 14:02:00 - [1]

Edited by: Sytho on 25/09/2008 14:04:35
Hello everyone,

I have come to a dilema recently concerning my character. He has around 1.6 mil skillpoints, so is relatively new. I started him a year ago not really thinking about the racial attributes and traits. I quit the game for study reasons and have now returned, and am thinking of rerolling. My reasons for this are that my base attributes are incredibly poor when considering I want to be an industrial character. I went Jin-Mei, with the Sang Do Caste. To quote off of a website describing the specific races, "their weakness can be found in most less combat-orientated skills". If I am correct the attributes an industrialist needs relate around intelligence and memory, followed my perception, willpower and then at the very least charisma, respectively. My race has a very poor intelligence and memory rating, it's their worst attributes! Charisma is ranked second highest, and yet it is a severely unneeded skill for an industrialist.

I am thinking of rerolling to a more suited character. I mean, I even dislike my looks. What is the best race and bloodline to go if i'm wanting to mine, manufacture etc and go industrial. I would want a Hulk asap. Currently there's 49 days left of training on my current setup, but i've heard a Caldari Achura with +3 implants would get one in 55 days from the beginning! It would also be benefitial if I had the option to spec combat later down the line when i've got my industrial skills quite high. Therefore I don't want to skimp on my willpower and perception too much. However I guess perception and willpower tie in with a good Indy character anyways?

I know, tl;dr. But if you did take the time to read this, I would be very appreciative on advice on firstly whether I should reroll in my situation, and secondly what would be a good rerolling option.


Materia Hunter
Posted - 2008.09.25 14:16:00 - [2]


I have just done the same thing. After trying many different configs, I found that Caldari Achura is generally a excellent combination of stats. Even when you decide to train other stuff, their well roundedness means you will still train skills in excellent times.
Keep Char. low and spread the rest of your points out evenly and you can end up with a character of almost identical stats (excluding Charisma).

In all honesty I didn't want another Caldari, but the stats just made it too tempting.

Wack in +3 implants and a hulk comes out at about 55days, although once you add T2 fittings on it was closer to 60IIRC.
The great thing is, you can train for a retriever 'at the same time'. The skills that the hulk and retriever (and others) use are largely interchangeable, so by using evemon and micro-managing you can be mining in the smaller ships with little / no deviation from your current Hulk dreams with a negligible time difference.

If you are unsure, have low SP and even don't like your characters looks - dump it. You'll never be happy looking at that face when you play.

Letouk Mernel
Posted - 2008.09.25 14:36:00 - [3]

The difference between the Caldari Achura and other races (Gallente, Minmatar, Amarr) is actually quite small, the 3 points in Charisma that Achura has, compared with 5 or 6 that other races start with. So it's just 3 points, basically. If you plug in +3 implants and train your Learning skills to 4 across the board, your attributes should be in the 17-20 range, and a 3 point difference will amount to very very little, if you think about it.

There's a Minmatar option that has very low Cha and options to add to +int and +per as starting attributes, and there's a Gallente option that has slightly higher charisma (7 I think) but still very evenly-balanced attributes that will fit the industrial-now-fighter-later character you have in mind.

TLDR: pick whatever race looks good to you, balance int per mem wil across the board, and get training.

Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2008.09.25 15:53:00 - [4]

Hi Materia and Letouk, thanks for your advice. I am very tempted to go Caldari Achura after looking at the base stats of a few competing races (Minmatar Vherokior, Gallente Intaki). Would the Stargazer bloodline of the Achura be the best choice?

Juliette Leblanc
Posted - 2008.09.25 16:45:00 - [5]

If you want to make a specialized researcher/inventor, by all means go with an Achura Inventor (+3int +2mem) Industry Engineer. You'll be up and running in an extremely short time. You'll suck at anything else, so this is best for an alt (you can train the alt first and then make the main later, of course).

For a builder I'd go with Verokior Retailer or Intaki Reborn (+3mem +2int) Industry Engineer.
Alternatives (but less optimized) are the Achura Stargazer, the Amarr Wealthy Commoners and the Deteis Merchandisers.

If your builder also want to be a little of a trader the Verokior Retailer is your best choice.

If you want it to be a little of a miner, the Achura Stargazer and the Amarr Wealthy Commoners are your best choices (I'd make a Wealthy Commoner Industry Prospector).

Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2008.09.25 17:09:00 - [6]


I'm currently thinking that I should abandon the "industry now, fighter later" approach I was prepared to take. I am now flowing more towards the power of two offer and having one fighter character, and one industrial character. Therefore I am now willing to take less of the attributes relevant to fighters in this industrial characters bloodline. I am wanting this industrial character to be the ISK maker to safely fund (as in, mining in empire space, manufacturing goods etc.) my fighting character. I am leaning towards Gallente Intaki Reborn and Caldari Achura Stargazer. The only problem with the intaki is that they start with a very low perception score. What would this limit me in? Ship skills? I would however have high memory and intelligence, followed by willpower. The Achura is a good all round industrialist I believe? As this is mainly what I want to do with this character, a bit of everything Industrial with a focus more on mining.

A bit off topic question, but if I did have two accounts, and one was in a hulk and mined enough to purchase a GTC, could I transfer this money over to my other account?

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Posted - 2008.09.25 17:30:00 - [7]

Diminishing returns. Getting +3 points to spend on top of already-boosted attributes wont help much, but starting with 3 CHA will significantly hurt your training time. Achura's an option, but don't automatically assume you're never going to want any leadership skills or trade skills or corp management skills, or that CCP wont add more at a later date.

Generally I'd go for relatively balanced attributes, although probably with fewer CHA than others.

Also...I don't know why this myth is so common, but fighting characters don't have issues making cash.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2008.09.25 18:02:00 - [8]

OK ...

What you want (in anything other than a specialized alt) is balanced attributes.

Don't slant things one way or the other. Have them all about equal.

You have two chances to manipulate your base attributes. One is when they give you those 5 attribute points to distribute and the other is the next step where you pick your ancestry. They should really do it the other way around but whatever.

Distribute your 5 points - then go look at the offerings for your back ground. Then, with those options in mind - go BACK - and change around your 5 points so that you come out of this with an even spread across the board.


Because everyone needs everything.

Combat pilots have to train support skills.
Industrialists and Traders need to run missions to enhance their standings.

If the character is going to be your main - then you want some flexibility - so you can do different things down the road when it's to late to re-roll without a lot of pain.

As to first attempt characters that you are unhappy with ... just use one of your other 3 alts. Don't delete a character until you're sure you really want to use that slot for someone else - and you know exactly why you can't use the character you are going to delete to do that.

The best reasons for deleting a character are - you don't like the name or face you picked.

You're going to look at that face for hours on end every day - so pick one you aren't going to rapidly get sick of. That's one of the reasons so many males pick female characters - especially Achura. The chick is cute - the guy is this ugly, mousy little dude. Do you really want to look at that guy all day ever day for the next few years?

If you find out down the line that you want to buff some area of a characters attributes - then you can go buy some good implants.

Just don't create an unbalanced character as your main when you are just starting out. You don't know what it is you're really going to enjoy about this game so don't stick yourself in a corner by over specializing.

If you train both the rank 1 and rank 3 learning skills to level 4 and get a full set of basic implants by doing the 10 mission sets for all three schools - you'll have a character with good attributes.

Later, once you've learned more about the game, if you decide you want to create a specialized character for a specific job - then you can skew their attributes if you want. But just starting out - keep your main balanced.

Here, it really doesn't make that much difference who you pick.

Just make sure you like your portrait and make sure you like your name.

On that portrait ... note that what it looks like when you get to picking your name isn't always going to be what you intended. If you don't like the way it looks when they shrink it down, back up and fix it. It used to be that there was a bug that wouldn't let you do that - but they have fixed that now.

On your name ... don't put something stupid in there like "Ultra Noob" ... you aren't going to be a freaking noob forever ... Also be aware that people are going to react to your name and treat you according to what you've decided to call yourself. Be a smart ass and pick some odd name and ... people may not want to have as much to do with you as they otherwise might. Pick something really obnoxious and ... not that any one really needs an excuse in EVE ... but they may take it into their heads that they don't like you and go out of their way to war dec you for just that reason. Of course they don't war dec individuals - they war dec corps - so how happy is your corp CEO going to be the fifth time his corp gets war dec'd because one of the guys in it keeps ****ing people off?

Of course - here - if what you want is to be a real trouble maker - then pic a name and face that are as obnoxious as you want. Just be sure that what you *really* want - is to still be ****ing people off two years from now ...

And yes that's why some people have Jeckel & Hyde alts.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Posted - 2008.09.25 19:19:00 - [9]

Industrialists and Traders need to run missions to enhance their standings.

Well not all missions are combat missions...Combat missions only really blow away the other missions ISK wise.

Everything else you said was pretty much right. I still wouldn't put more in CHA than the other 4 stats, and I definitely think an industry character could afford to put a couple more points into Int/Mem than the others, but overall I'd go balanced.

Dead Fantasy
Posted - 2008.09.25 20:08:00 - [10]

Edited by: Acidius on 25/09/2008 20:09:09
For you...

I would go...

Gallente -> Jin-Mei -> Male ->

+2 Intel
+2 Memory
+1 Perception

This will put you at 7-7-7-7-7

Ancestory -> Saan Go Caste -> 7-9-9-7-7
Career -> Industry -> 7-11-11-7-7
Specialization -> Engineer -> 7-13-11-7-7

Final Result

Charisma 7
Intel 13
Memory 11
Perception 7
Willpower 7

This is assuming you will not be fighting too much...

Personally I prefer well balanced character attributes, for diversity.

Dead Fantasy
Posted - 2008.09.25 20:42:00 - [11]

Uh...I just noticed that's 45 points on base attributes. I verified it by creating a new character.

My original character, created 3 years ago, only gets 39 points of base attributes. That can't be right....

Is there any way for me to claim my lack of attribute points?

Ymandra Raystara
Posted - 2008.09.25 20:53:00 - [12]

The extra attributes you're noticing come from the extra learning skills, not base attributes. A toon made 3 years ago didn't start with extra learning.

Juliette Leblanc
Posted - 2008.09.25 20:54:00 - [13]

If you want to make only one character or only few characters and keep them training, then yes: try to make them balanced.
But many players (especially those that have been playing for a while) have specialized alts. These characters only train for a while and then stop training and just do whatever they were trained for: cyno alts, invention alts, trading alts etc.

You initially wrote that you wanted an industrial character. Industrial is a bit generic: inventor, builder, miner even hauler are all industrial professions. Also you later wrote you are thinking of having two accounts (and therefore at least two characters). One more combat oriented and one more industrial oriented to fund the combat character.

You'll find out that your combat character will make much more isks (and eventually he will fund the other character) for quite a long time. How long it depends on what exactly you do. An Achura Inventor Industry Engineer can be made into a pretty good researcher/inventor in a very short time, and into a very good one in just a bit longer. A builder, on the other hand, will take a lot of time ti skill up to the point it becomes more profitable than other professions. A miner can start making some isks pretty early, but will take a while before it really is profitable.

If you think you need an industrialist to fund your fighter because the fighter will loose money while the industrialist makes them pretty fast, you are in for a delusion: your fighter will make much more isks running L4 missions or ratting in nullsec than you can dream of doing on any industrialist with less than about a year of training. Trading (if you know how to do it) is the only profession that may give you more money than fighting with relatively low skillpoints.

My suggestion is: decide what you think you will enjoy doing most and go for it. If you are not very sure, do not make a specialist character: make a more or less balanced character. Prefer intelligence and perception and if possible do not take too hight charisma.

As a general rule for combat character: if you want to be proficient fast and/or you are going to take a long time to decide what racial ships you want to fly, prefer intelligence over perception and memory over willpower. You'll be decent in a shorter time, but it'll take you longer to train the later skills. On the other hand if you can accept not being very proficient in the first several months but want to get an edge later on, then prefer perception/willpower over intelligence/memory.

However if you already know what you want to do, then you can go and take more points in attributes that you will use most. And if you are doing a specialized character that will only train for so long (be it 6 month or one year) and then "leave the training slot" to another character, by all means prepare a good skillplan and maximize the attributes you'll need.

Also, for a PvP character, it makes sense to train the learning skills to 4-4 ASAP and then to 5-4. Also train Cybernetics to 1 ASAP and eventually rise it to 4. For a researcher/builder, on the other hand, you may want to train Cybernetics 5 and plug in +5 implants: you probably will never/rarely undock and the risk of loosing them is low. Selling one or two GTCs is more than sufficient to fund your characters until they are up and running (advanced learning skills and implants in the beginning, then whatever skills/equipment they'll need in the first 6 months).

Dead Fantasy
Posted - 2008.09.25 21:03:00 - [14]

Originally by: Ymandra Raystara
The extra attributes you're noticing come from the extra learning skills, not base attributes. A toon made 3 years ago didn't start with extra learning.

So we get penalized for being vets? Shouldn't we get 6+ pts to spend on attributes just to be par?

Jethro Jechonias
Ki Tech Industries
Posted - 2008.09.25 21:20:00 - [15]

Edited by: Jethro Jechonias on 25/09/2008 21:22:07
Originally by: Acidius
Originally by: Ymandra Raystara
The extra attributes you're noticing come from the extra learning skills, not base attributes. A toon made 3 years ago didn't start with extra learning.

So we get penalized for being vets? Shouldn't we get 6+ pts to spend on attributes just to be par?
No you are not penalized.

If you had less than 800k SP when Revelations was released, then you were given free skills to bring you up to 800k SP. If you had more than 800k SP then you were already better off than someone who started after Revelations was released.

Vets and N00bs have the same potential to increases their attributes so neither is better than the other. New characters still only get 39 base attribute points. Both have access to the same bonuses from skills and implants.

As for advice for the OP:
- You can't go wrong with balanced attributes.
- The more you skew your attributes the worse you are disadvantaged when training in your area of weakness.

Wen Deivar
Posted - 2008.09.25 22:34:00 - [16]

Wen Deivar
Posted - 2008.09.25 22:35:00 - [17]

Edited by: Wen Deivar on 25/09/2008 22:35:54
Originally by: Acidius
Originally by: Ymandra Raystara
The extra attributes you're noticing come from the extra learning skills, not base attributes. A toon made 3 years ago didn't start with extra learning.

So we get penalized for being vets? Shouldn't we get 6+ pts to spend on attributes just to be par?

New characters can still only get 39 points just like vet characters got. Only they are forever penalized you can say for being rolled much later. One of the oldest characters in eve is over 100 million skill points ahead of any Caldari Achura that get rolled to day.

Posted - 2008.09.25 23:43:00 - [18]

It's not difficult to have a "omni" character that does everything you want on 1 guy, it just takes longer than making a specialist and is less convenient.

I think Achuras are probably the best all-arounder stats, especially if take a Business career track to boost their social and trade skills from the beginning, so you don't spend alot of time using that low "3" stat.

Khanids are very good, as are Sebiestors.

Gallente chars in general have pretty weak stats for fighting, but they start off with good skills and some do consider Gallente equipment to be the best.

I think ultimately the most important thing is to get a face and name and theme that you enjoy, because this is a game after all, and you're gonna be staring at that face every time you logon.

So pick your poison and don't stress, it's all a dream.

Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2008.09.26 00:10:00 - [19]

Think i'll make a Caldari Achura for my industrial / all rounder sort of character. I have yet to decide on my fighter character though. Mind you I am wanting him to become a pirate PvP character.

And yes I know I can make money via level four missions. But I want to experience the economical industrial side of the game. I've done missions before and to be honest, i'd rather mine purely because I can do other things whilst I do it. They remind me of quests and one of the reasons why I like EVE as of present, is due to the variety of ways you can earn a living and be successful. Of course pirating is also something i'd rather do, which is why i'm going to make one. I just believe overall, although speccing one character with balanced skills in to two things seems good, it takes twice as long. I'd rather be able to do both playstyles when I so please. My pirate should make money of course, and it'll be fun in the process. However if I don't have the time, or simply don't feel like scanning systems and what not, I can just pull out a barge and park it in an asteroid belt and continue with my studies for my real life work.

That said, I doubt there'll be a time when my industrial will need fighter skills, or when my fighter will need industrial skills (unless you can enlighten me). Therefore my skills will have a slight edge towards the preference, however it will not be greatly significant. I will not skimp on other skills greatly. This comes to light as in if I wanted to train electronic warfare skills, needing intelligence, even if I was a fighter.

Thanks for your advice everyone Smile Some of it was kind of going off the point however (as in, i'm not naive enough to make a completely stupid name).

Letouk Mernel
Posted - 2008.09.26 01:02:00 - [20]

Edited by: Letouk Mernel on 26/09/2008 01:02:51
Originally by: Sytho
Think i'll make a Caldari Achura for my industrial / all rounder sort of character. I have yet to decide on my fighter character though. Mind you I am wanting him to become a pirate PvP character.

If you want to be a pirate then you need to detach yourself from this character and not care what happens to him, because he will lose sec status, and will be hunted and gain notoriety, and not all encounters will be successful for him. If you're being obsessive about the character being "just perfect", with precise attributes and an impeccable look, it probably won't be a very successful pirate. You will "ruin" certain things about the character in the process of participating in piracy PVP, so being obsessive about the character isn't the way to go.

And, your biggest hurdle to overcome is lack of knowledge about PVP. Success in PVP depends a lot on being able to recognize all the ships at a glance, and knowing instantly what they can do, what range to stay at, whether they're too tough or easy prey, etc. And you can only learn this by jumping in and doing PVP, so for the pirate I'd join Fleet Warfare or a private PVP corp to learn the ropes and get good at PVP, and turn pirate later. But jump in now, in a frigate, go!, don't wait around to make your character pretty and perfect (skillwise) first.


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