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8Pool
Posted - 2008.09.15 18:39:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: 8Pool on 15/09/2008 18:42:47
Why does the Nighawk, Caldari Field Comand Ship, have only 710 PowerGrid?

- Astarte (Gallente Field Comand Ship) - 1450 PowerGrid
- Absolution (Amarr Field Comand Ship) - 1575 PowerGrid
- Sleipnir (Minmatar Field Comand Ship) - 1460 PowerGrid

As you can see all the other Field Comand Ship's, have more than the double of the powergrid nighthawk has.

With only that powergrid avaible, i find it hard to fit a well balanced Tank and Damage Output Nighthawk, in comparison to other Comand Ship's

Even with all PowerGrid and Cpu skill maxed to V

Plus, what is that ridiculous Precision Bonus?!?!? The nighthawk is not balanced with the other cs.

Why?

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2008.09.15 19:30:00 - [2]
 

look at the fitting requirements of medium guns vs heavy missiles (missiles require around 1/3 the pg of an equivalent gun)

nighthawk is not 'tight' when you fit it.

if you are trying to squeeze on multiple links, go vulture!

Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
Posted - 2008.09.15 19:33:00 - [3]
 

The weapons that a Nighthawk were designed to use (Heavy Missiles) take a good bit less grid than the corresponding weapons for the other races' Field Command Ships. Therefore, the Nighthawk doesn't really require as much grid.

Having said that, the Nighthawk could probably use a touch more grid to make it easier to fit a Gang mod, but nowhere near what the others have.

As for the precision bonus, each of the Field Command ships have one bonus oriented around helping their weapons hit better save the Absolution which doesn't need it if it fits Pulse Lasers. Since the Astarte and Sleipnir both have falloff bonuses and heavy missiles certainly don't need any extra range, it got a precision bonus. Sure it's not a perfect fit, but it does come in handy for popping frigates.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2008.09.15 20:31:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: 8Pool
Edited by: 8Pool on 15/09/2008 18:42:47
Why does the Nighawk, Caldari Field Comand Ship, have only 710 PowerGrid?

- Astarte (Gallente Field Comand Ship) - 1450 PowerGrid
- Absolution (Amarr Field Comand Ship) - 1575 PowerGrid
- Sleipnir (Minmatar Field Comand Ship) - 1460 PowerGrid

As you can see all the other Field Comand Ship's, have more than the double of the powergrid nighthawk has.

With only that powergrid avaible, i find it hard to fit a well balanced Tank and Damage Output Nighthawk, in comparison to other Comand Ship's

Even with all PowerGrid and Cpu skill maxed to V

Plus, what is that ridiculous Precision Bonus?!?!? The nighthawk is not balanced with the other cs.

Why?


Because no one ever thinks you would fit (non-faction/officer) mwd, heavy assault missiles, shield booster or tackling modules on level 4 mission mobile.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.09.15 20:45:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 15/09/2008 20:46:15

The Nighthawk is about 140 PG short of a viable PVP fit with gang mod. There's no point in flying a Nighthawk without a gang mod in PVP. The issue was raised with the CSM, which replied "LOL Caldari PVP, stick to Motsu". Or something. The issue was raised again with the CSM, who then noticed that it was hopelessly short of grid and forwarded it on to CCP.

That was several months ago. Nothing has happened since, but I'm optimistic that CCP will comment on it soon...

I expect the useless precision bonus to become somewhat more useful after the missile tweaks in the speed fix patch.

Ferocious FeAr
THE FINAL STAND
Everto Rex Regis
Posted - 2008.09.15 21:23:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Ferocious FeAr on 15/09/2008 21:22:57
The nighthawk has a very hard time fitting HAM's. Sacrilege can fit them fine but a race that was developed around missiles as its main combat system can't fit it without having serious issues. That's not right.

Ignition SemperFi
No Falcons Allowed
Posted - 2008.09.15 22:06:00 - [7]
 

not to be the bearer of bad news but this should probably be moved to Features and Ideas instead of game development.

Since as of late all of CCP says everything in game is as intended, whether it may seem borked or not.


But either way i agree with the issue at hand. a bit more PG so we can fit HAMs plz

Mioelnir
Minmatar
Cataclysm Enterprises
Ev0ke
Posted - 2008.09.16 11:17:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ferocious FeAr
The nighthawk has a very hard time fitting HAM's. Sacrilege can fit them fine but a race that was developed around missiles as its main combat system can't fit it without having serious issues. That's not right.
Caldari is not only about missiles, but also about long-range. It's only natural that they may struggle a bit to fit close range weapons.

Oh, and the "useless" precision bonus. YOU ASKED FOR IT! The Nighthawk once had an explosion velocity bonus, which was changed by CCP because of popular demand considering it "useless".

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.09.16 12:08:00 - [9]
 

The nighthawk viewed by itself AS A SHIP
is completely fine.
Good dps, good tank etc.. It has problems with fitting a command link but thas more an entire CS issue..
The real problem with nighthawks (and the other CS's) is the insane cost markup compared to the tiny advantage they have over tier 2 bc's..And the disadvantage they have compared to fully insured BS's..

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2008.09.16 12:43:00 - [10]
 

CSM already voted on this i think its going to get brought to ccps attention so nmot to be rude shuddap already.

Car Wars
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.09.16 12:49:00 - [11]
 

Giving it more grid would probably open the way to fit an xl shield booster with shield extenders making it stupidly tanked..

8Pool
Posted - 2008.09.16 16:44:00 - [12]
 

I am only posting this post because i am a caldari pvp pilot and apart from jammers, i would like to have some damage

and to get that litle extra dmg i swaped to heavy assault missile's which drasticaly increase the damage to about 600dp's,

but they consume to much powergrid and i am not even mentioning fitting a Gang Module because THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE,

even with normal heavy missiles, that consume less powergrid, i couldunt fit a x-large shield booster and a gang module.


Gen kan
Posted - 2008.09.16 17:31:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: 8Pool
I am only posting this post because i am a caldari pvp pilot and apart from jammers, i would like to have some damage

and to get that litle extra dmg i swaped to heavy assault missile's which drasticaly increase the damage to about 600dp's,

but they consume to much powergrid and i am not even mentioning fitting a Gang Module because THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE,

even with normal heavy missiles, that consume less powergrid, i couldunt fit a x-large shield booster and a gang module.




If you are looking for raw DPS then you are flying the wrong ship buddy. The nighthawks tank is grand, giving it the ability to up its dps anymore than it has now would result in the other command ships being underpowered in comparison.

Besides, normal heavys will be able to strike at a far longer range, that can be a big upside.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.09.16 17:46:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
The nighthawks tank is grand


It really isn't. You don't have the PG to fit an active tank, and the buffer tank isn't much better than a similarly-fit Drake's tank.

HAMs aren't really the problem - yes they take more PG than HMLs, but the real problem is that there's no point to the Nighthawk if you're not fitting a gang mod, and the Nighthawk can't fit a gang mod on a sensible PVP fit.

8Pool
Posted - 2008.09.16 20:18:00 - [15]
 

seriously,

the nighthawk cant fit a decent active tanking, because it lack's powergrid to fit a X-large shield booster,

even with a large shield booster and shield booster amplifier t2 and all resistances over then 75%, it cant active tank very well, it's not that it lacks cap because the nh has an incredible cargo hold for Capacitor Injector's, but it lack's Sheild Boost bonus, very often i find myself with resistances over 80% and Shield Cicles at 3.0 secounds with 360 shield bonus boost,
and my tank get's broken easily by a single ship let's say within 600-700 dp's (LET'S SAY ALL OTHER COMAND SHIPS)?

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:40:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: 8Pool
seriously,

the nighthawk cant fit a decent active tanking, because it lack's powergrid to fit a X-large shield booster,

even with a large shield booster and shield booster amplifier t2 and all resistances over then 75%, it cant active tank very well, it's not that it lacks cap because the nh has an incredible cargo hold for Capacitor Injector's, but it lack's Sheild Boost bonus, very often i find myself with resistances over 80% and Shield Cicles at 3.0 secounds with 360 shield bonus boost,
and my tank get's broken easily by a single ship let's say within 600-700 dp's (LET'S SAY ALL OTHER COMAND SHIPS)?

Laughing
Yeah, I'd like to tank an Astarte with a Large Armor Repairer, too.

Car Wars
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.09.17 07:54:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: 8Pool
seriously,

the nighthawk cant fit a decent active tanking, because it lack's powergrid to fit a X-large shield booster,

even with a large shield booster and shield booster amplifier t2 and all resistances over then 75%, it cant active tank very well, it's not that it lacks cap because the nh has an incredible cargo hold for Capacitor Injector's, but it lack's Sheild Boost bonus, very often i find myself with resistances over 80% and Shield Cicles at 3.0 secounds with 360 shield bonus boost,
and my tank get's broken easily by a single ship let's say within 600-700 dp's (LET'S SAY ALL OTHER COMAND SHIPS)?

Laughing
Yeah, I'd like to tank an Astarte with a Large Armor Repairer, too.


Well tbh that would mean 2x large armor repairer to compare to bs fits. Very Happy

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.09.17 08:17:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: 8Pool
seriously,

the nighthawk cant fit a decent active tanking, because it lack's powergrid to fit a X-large shield booster,

even with a large shield booster and shield booster amplifier t2 and all resistances over then 75%, it cant active tank very well, it's not that it lacks cap because the nh has an incredible cargo hold for Capacitor Injector's, but it lack's Sheild Boost bonus, very often i find myself with resistances over 80% and Shield Cicles at 3.0 secounds with 360 shield bonus boost,
and my tank get's broken easily by a single ship let's say within 600-700 dp's (LET'S SAY ALL OTHER COMAND SHIPS)?

Laughing
Yeah, I'd like to tank an Astarte with a Large Armor Repairer, too.


And I'd like to put a XLSB on a Sleipnir... along with a gang mod. Oh, hang on...

Not to mention that the Astarte actually has a useful number of slots to tank with.

Car Wars
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.09.17 08:35:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Car Wars on 17/09/2008 08:35:49
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: 8Pool
seriously,

the nighthawk cant fit a decent active tanking, because it lack's powergrid to fit a X-large shield booster,

even with a large shield booster and shield booster amplifier t2 and all resistances over then 75%, it cant active tank very well, it's not that it lacks cap because the nh has an incredible cargo hold for Capacitor Injector's, but it lack's Sheild Boost bonus, very often i find myself with resistances over 80% and Shield Cicles at 3.0 secounds with 360 shield bonus boost,
and my tank get's broken easily by a single ship let's say within 600-700 dp's (LET'S SAY ALL OTHER COMAND SHIPS)?

Laughing
Yeah, I'd like to tank an Astarte with a Large Armor Repairer, too.



And I'd like to put a XLSB on a Sleipnir... along with a gang mod. Oh, hang on...

Not to mention that the Astarte actually has a useful number of slots to tank with.



oh yeah the astarte is famous for its tank + gang mods, oh wait....Rolling EyesRolling Eyes

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.09.17 08:37:00 - [20]
 

Its tank is comparable to that of a Nighthawk, and it fits a gang mod much more easily. So what's your point?

Car Wars
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.09.17 09:09:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Car Wars on 17/09/2008 09:09:27
Originally by: Gypsio III
Its tank is comparable to that of a Nighthawk, and it fits a gang mod much more easily. So what's your point?


You didnt catch the double layer of sarcasm I guess..

1. its tank is crap compared to all the other cs because you are killing your cap with mwd, blasters (+ mag stab-> more cap use) and your getting in web range...Astarte excells in damage.
2. who fits gang mods on an astarteRolling EyesRolling Eyes...see my point...gang mods -> fleet command

Like with most ballanced ships: choose tank or gank. You can tank an astarte if you downgrade the guns and drop magstabs -> less gank.

Same: You can tank a nighthawk but then your dps will suffer.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:07:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 17/09/2008 13:12:21
Your sarcasm must have been lost among your flawed assumptions. Neutral

There's no reason to fly a field CS without a gang mod. Use a BC.
Astarte's tank is not crap, relative to the other field CS.

Quote:
Like with most ballanced ships: choose tank or gank. You can tank an astarte if you downgrade the guns and drop magstabs -> less gank.

Same: You can tank a nighthawk but then your dps will suffer.


What? No, ships don't work like this. Armour tankers like the Astarte choose tank or gank, and tackle or ewar. Shield tankers like the NH choose gank, and then tank, tackle or ewar. Generally speaking, of course.

Tanking a Nighthawk - which you can't do very well anyway - doesn't really affect its DPS. Unless you're trying to put a XLSB on, in which case you need a full rack of RCU IIs, I suppose. Unless... no, you can't be...? Do I detect PVE and SPRs influencing your misconceptions? Sad

Bad Borris
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:15:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Bad Borris on 17/09/2008 13:21:15
The issue with the grid of the nighthawk has nothing to do with its inability to fit a decent tank. Ofc u can fit it with a beast of a tank. The problem is that you cannot easily fit a mwd (without several fitting mods) on it along with a decent buffer which you can easily do with the drake.

I think ccp intended the ship to be fit like a passive tank brick with no mobility.

If it had just slightly less grid than the drake (ie. the equivalent of 1 hml less grid) then i wonder if there would be a problem with the ship then.

Car Wars
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:53:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Car Wars on 17/09/2008 13:53:46
Originally by: Gypsio III


quote




Your probably never flew an Astarte. I on the other hand am specced for Astarte.

Some general pvp facts about Astarte pvp fits:

-95% of the time an astarte will fit 7x guns, no gang mod, if your not going to fit the guns your better off flying another cs. So no gangs mods…

-Astartes do not fit ewar (as in ecm or others) + tackle: mid slot Astarte: mwd, web, disruptor, cap booster.

-Astarte excels at doing damage (double damage bonus duh). Normal fits are with at least one mag stab. A mag stab increases cap use of guns, which is very high on blasters. + less tank. You could go for an added ean II which increase tank by a very significant bit. Being a damage dealer, most fits use the mag stab.

-In all that the fit is very close on cpu and grid + it needs a pg rid to fit neutrons. -> one less tanking rig.

All in all, in realistic pvp fits: damage very nice, tank less then others + cap use very high.
It does not compare in armor taking vs an absolution. Sleipnir is shield + speed tank. Hard to compare


To counter some of your arguments:

You argument that you can’t use shield tank + tackle is inherent to caldari, not specific nighthawk problem.

Fitting a full rack of rcu’s to fit a xl booster is just plain stupid, you sound noobish…

Nighthawk can choose to fit bcu’s or pdu’s for instance. gank vs tank. Same goes for rigs, more dps or more tank. Your not obliged to fit 1 grid rig like Astarte to go gank.



8Pool
Posted - 2008.09.17 16:13:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: 8Pool on 17/09/2008 16:31:18
please stick to the topic,

You cant tank properly with the nh even with resistance's bonus the caldari battlecruiser offers you and with

the large shield booster's t2 u fit. As for passive tank, i realy dont beleive the nh was made for that because,

it requires high shield hp and shield power relays, and that requires Large Shield Extenders t2 which take a lot of grid, and the nighthawk only has 700.


And Car Wars, i dont see your point, it's impossible to fit a X-large shield booster with the nighthawk, BECAUSE THE SHIP HAS NO GRID,
that's why i am freacking complaining, And no i am not going to fit my nighthawk with 10000 reactor control unit's t2

and many people say that for u to have a beast tank in the nighthawk u must sacrifice ur dps WRONG WRONG

the nighthawk was meant for active fitting, i can fit all my tank modules withtout sacrificing the damage, but still what damage does the nh?
it tikles a bit not much. It always roams around 400-500 with heavy missiles (that's the weapon the ship was made for)

when i said i could fit easily my tank modules it's true because they are large shield booster, which SUCK, a cap injector to take use of the nh cargo hold, and because it has no grid whatsoever with a medium cap booster and with a large shield booster t2, it's impossible to fit a mwd, unless if u spam RCU t2. So just go resistances and make use of the slightly high cpu u got...

The nighthawk has it is, IT'S WORTHLESS A DRAKE GIVES MORE DAMAGE AND TANK'S BETTER,

Drakes ---- 30 - 40m (fitting included)
Nighthawk-- 180m (fitting inculded)

it's a not good ship. To make it a good ship and balanced with the other field cs, the nh needs more powergrid, and a missile velocity bonus
so we can fit ham's that will increase our dps to the other comand ship's range,

hams will have a range of 40km, around just like the cerberus has with their missile velocity bonus.

Car Wars
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.09.18 08:39:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Car Wars on 18/09/2008 08:40:43
My point is it should in no way be able to fit a xl booster, which would happen if grid is boosted. This is a battleship mod, comparable to 2x large armor reps. I can't fit those on an astarte, let alone one.

Missile do less dps, but do nice volley damage + range. Astarte has theoretical high dps and very small range. In any gang over 10 peeps I would pick a cerb or nighhawk over a deimos or astarte. You dont need tackle mods, thats what gang is for. Nice, tank, nice dps, nice range etc. See the choices + ballance, its not so simple as just comparing tank or dps...
Caldari are actually very good at medium gangs. Anyways it all comes down to choices and to using / training the correct ship for the job. Nighthawk is a pve monster Wink

I think the commandships are reasonably ballanced out. Some tier 2 bc are the problem. Drake is probably the one that is overpowered.




Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.09.18 11:10:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 18/09/2008 11:22:15

Car Wars, I'm having great difficulty following your post, because your comments don't seem to relate to what I said. You appear to be ascribing arguments and beliefs to me that I simply don't hold and didn't state.

As such, I'm not going to comment on any of your Astarte comments. Except to repeat that there's no point flying an Astarte without a gang mod - you can do everything the Astarte does, and more, in a BS - or even a Myrm, probably - at a fraction of the cost. But as an Astarte pilot in a respected PVP corp, I'm sure you appreciate this.

Similarly, there's no point flying a Nighthawk without a gang mod - Raven or Drake does everything it can, and more. The problem is that the NH doesn't have the PG to fit a gang mod. The Astarte does - if pilots choose not to, that's their right, but the point is that they have the choice. It really is that simple.

Oh, and one more thing, please explain how a NH with 140 extra base PG will be able to fit an XLSB, and why that would be overpowered. And then explain why the current Sleipnir, which can fit an XLSB and gang mod, isn't overpowered.

Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.09.18 11:47:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Car Wars
Edited by: Car Wars on 18/09/2008 08:40:43
My point is it should in no way be able to fit a xl booster, which would happen if grid is boosted. This is a battleship mod, comparable to 2x large armor reps. I can't fit those on an astarte, let alone one.

Missile do less dps, but do nice volley damage + range. Astarte has theoretical high dps and very small range. In any gang over 10 peeps I would pick a cerb or nighhawk over a deimos or astarte. You dont need tackle mods, thats what gang is for. Nice, tank, nice dps, nice range etc. See the choices + ballance, its not so simple as just comparing tank or dps...
Caldari are actually very good at medium gangs. Anyways it all comes down to choices and to using / training the correct ship for the job. Nighthawk is a pve monster Wink

I think the commandships are reasonably ballanced out. Some tier 2 bc are the problem. Drake is probably the one that is overpowered.



bad to see how the quality of peoples who know more about the game than a 5y old boy is dropping by such good pvp alliances like BoB :(

Car Wars
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.09.18 12:40:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Damned Force

bad to see how the quality of peoples who know more about the game than a 5y old boy is dropping by such good pvp alliances like BoB :(


for a 5yr old boy, i am really gifted Very Happy

Nice arguments you put forth...good points, well thought out....oh wait, probably the best you could do.

Do you have any valid arguments to ad to this discussion?

Car Wars
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.09.18 13:30:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Car Wars on 18/09/2008 13:32:08
Edited by: Car Wars on 18/09/2008 13:31:35

Originally by: Gypsio III
Edited by: Gypsio III on 18/09/2008 11:22:15

Car Wars, I'm having great difficulty following your post, because your comments don't seem to relate to what I said. You appear to be ascribing arguments and beliefs to me that I simply don't hold and didn't state.

As such, I'm not going to comment on any of your Astarte comments. Except to repeat that there's no point flying an Astarte without a gang mod - you can do everything the Astarte does, and more, in a BS - or even a Myrm, probably - at a fraction of the cost. But as an Astarte pilot in a respected PVP corp, I'm sure you appreciate this.

Similarly, there's no point flying a Nighthawk without a gang mod - Raven or Drake does everything it can, and more. The problem is that the NH doesn't have the PG to fit a gang mod. The Astarte does - if pilots choose not to, that's their right, but the point is that they have the choice. It really is that simple.

Oh, and one more thing, please explain how a NH with 140 extra base PG will be able to fit an XLSB, and why that would be overpowered. And then explain why the current Sleipnir, which can fit an XLSB and gang mod, isn't overpowered.


I took an astarte to illustrate that the following issues are also present:
-with fitting gang mods in a gang
-being well tanked
-doing nice damage.

it just cant be all done. Similary it cant be done by a nighhawk.


More in depth:

astarte + gang mods

I dont know where you got the idea of people fitting gang mods to the astarte. Eos has the same slot layout and can fit and sustain more gang mods. Fitting 1 gang mod on an astarte will be a problem, power grid and cap wise. Plus you would be downgrading guns if not dropping an additional one.

In what type of gang do you want to use you nighthawk and one gang mod in? This determines the fit and thus the comparison with for instance astarte. Below for astarte.

Astarte fit vs gang size:

Gang sizes are not hard boundaries, just meant as indication.

-solo to 5 men gang: Role: damage dealer.
neutron blasters, least one magstab, dual rep tank.
Assumption: very small gangs benefit more from an added damage dealer then extra tank through gang mods.

-5-20 gang. Role: damage dealer with same setup as above.
Maybe viable with one gang mod and blasters + dual rep tank although very hard fit (similar issue as nighthawk). Outperformed in usefulness by eos.

- >20 gang: Role: more geared towards anti support in this gang.
In big gangs blasters become trouble some, time to target is too long, applied dps is thus low. Gang benefits more of increased range of rails. Best fit would be rails + semi tank (increased grid of rails makes tank hard, 1 low will need rcu of pdu or minimal tank, similar issues as nighthawk).
Questionable if an Astarte is really that useful in these size gangs. Eos with gang mods? Other ship more useful? Probably so.

-fleet: astarte -> better off with a snipe mega or vulture (if you want cs).

other issue: bs vs astarte. you could do the same with a mega as an astarte, aggreed. better Lock time and speed / agility/ smaller signature / med guns are sometimes the reason to go for astarte.



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