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Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2008.09.13 10:13:00 - [1]
 

NPC corps were never meant to be a de facto PVP flag to protect players from wardecs.

However, wardecing NPC corps would be unbalanced if the normal wardec mechanics were used
(compare the member counts of State War Academy vs. Viziam ...)


Arrow Single-player Wardecs for NPC Corp Members

A corp or alliance may wardec a single player in an NPC corp (and ONLY if he is in an NPC corp). The same rules as for corps apply. Wardec fees rise progressively if a single entity wardecs many individuals.

(optional) Players in NPC corps can wardec other players, corps and alliances.


Also, corp and alliance hopping messes up the wardec system. With single-player wardecs, this problem can be addressed:

Arrow Influential Wardecs

If a corp leaves an alliance at war, or if a player leaves a corp at war, then the leaving corp or player inherits all wardecs from their corp or alliance.
If a player leaves a corp which is in an alliance at war, the player inherits all wardecs of the alliance.

Arrow Joining Corps or Alliances when at War

A corp should not be able to join an alliance if the corp has ongoing wars. In order to join the alliance, either the corp must get rid of its wardecs, or the alliance must wardec all enemies of the corp it is not already at war with.

The same rules should apply for players at war joining corps. Either the player must get rid of his wardecs, or the corp must wardec all of the player's enemies.

Arrow Militias are NPC Alliances

Therefore the same rules apply as for NPC corps, only at a higher level: You can not wardec a militia. You can wardec corps that are members of a militia just like any other corps which are not in an alliance.

Players who are in the militia corp are treated like players in any other NPC corp.

(Right, no change here)


Players have always exploited the wardec immunity of the NPC corps to avoid PVP. However, there is no evidence that this was ever intended to be possible. Allowing corps to wardec NPC corps or even faction militias is not an option for several reasons.

Corp hopping and alliance hopping totally messes up the wardec system. Some of these actions have been classed as exploits, some not (usually in favour of the carebears and isk farmers).

All of these are conceptual flaws in the current wardec mechanics that need to be fixed.

The changes I suggested would encourage players to join player corps, similar to how the current mechanics encourage corps to join alliances.
They also discourage corp and alliance hopping, which has always been the most effective exploit of flaws in the wardec mechanics.

If players in NPC corps were able to wardec, this might also discourage single-player corps and reduce the overall number of corps.

shady trader
Posted - 2008.09.13 12:52:00 - [2]
 

Actaully the NPC corps were designed to protect players from war decs.

The dev's have stated that part of the reason for NPC corps is for players who do not want to get involved in wars.

If you do a search you will find orginal dev responce. I think it was in the features and idea's thread.

DTson Gauur
Caldari
Blend.
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2008.09.13 13:03:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Feilamya


The changes I suggested would encourage players to join player corps, similar to how the current mechanics encourage corps to join alliances.
They also discourage corp and alliance hopping, which has always been the most effective exploit of flaws in the wardec mechanics.




Actually I predict that the exact opposite would happen in the form of droves of players canceling their accounts and leaving eve for good. Some people WILL NOT take part in PvP even if you force the action upon them, they will simply quit if they can't avoid it (I guess this is good for atleast 50% of the ppl in NPC corps now)

Also dec'in individual people would be way too easy to exploit... Don't like someone who's hiding in an NPC Corp? 10 ppl dec him and unless the dec / upkeep cost raises exponentially and he's screwed for "life".


Cian T'Barnel
Posted - 2008.09.14 10:47:00 - [4]
 

maybe get to war dec people or corps who want to do pvp, guess not everyone wants pvp or wants it all the time ?

if was told that could only do pvp and had to pvp all the time, so forget about carrying bpo's around or mining or trading, then would probably go and do something else.

play call of duty, halo and the like for fps pvp, can see the op's idea leading to people who for some reason want to do their own thing from being camped 23/7 by pvp junkies

but guess it would remove most of the isk miners from the game :)

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2008.09.14 12:52:00 - [5]
 

There is no problem with NPC corporations or the fact you can't wardec them.
The only problem is, they have access to every single feature in the game, except soverignty. If anything NPC corporations should be limited to what they can do. Say they can't do lvl 4 or you can't fly anything bigger than a cruiser. That way, you truly encourage people to leave the NPC corporation and still give them a chance to get back on their feet in relative safety.

Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
Posted - 2008.09.15 03:57:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Mika Meroko on 15/09/2008 03:58:31
errr...

npc corp is ruled out of the most lucrative features.

POS... moon mining, jumpclone standings.


KOS in low and 0.0...


yeah, npc corp is already nerfed compared to player corp (a good moon can make billions a month..)


so no, please look up the other 293812723 threads on nerfing missions and npc corps...

devs arent changing it... devs like the way it is..

the only people who are really ****ed off and annoyed by this are the CS kiddies who thinks they can shoot anybody in SAFER space ...(Caveat: you can STILL shoot them in highsec.. is just hard... and .. expensive..)



also,
the devs USES the CARROT approach...

stick approach make people quit...

carrot approaches doesnt make anybody feel bad...



anyways, please read up on the many hundreds of threads and thousands of replies on this in the last 3 years...(those are the ones I know of anyways.)


edit: and yes, the carrot is there... is just that there is no way to get some people to pvp... they quit and maybe think of joining hello kitty online...(open beta is almost out too!!!! and is looking GREAT XD... haha.)

Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.09.15 07:31:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: DTson Gauur
Originally by: Feilamya


The changes I suggested would encourage players to join player corps, similar to how the current mechanics encourage corps to join alliances.
They also discourage corp and alliance hopping, which has always been the most effective exploit of flaws in the wardec mechanics.




Actually I predict that the exact opposite would happen in the form of droves of players canceling their accounts and leaving eve for good. Some people WILL NOT take part in PvP even if you force the action upon them, they will simply quit if they can't avoid it (I guess this is good for atleast 50% of the ppl in NPC corps now)

Also dec'in individual people would be way too easy to exploit... Don't like someone who's hiding in an NPC Corp? 10 ppl dec him and unless the dec / upkeep cost raises exponentially and he's screwed for "life".




Those people would leave the next WoW in space(ie Jump Gate Evolution) game comes out anyways, why ccp even bothers to appeal to those players is beyond me.

Maybe when they leave ccp will realize that they cant compete with the mainstream carebear games and return eve to the way it used to be.

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2008.09.15 09:25:00 - [8]
 

I must admit I don't understand the consternation about people in NPC corps.

Whilst I agree people dropping from regular corps to NPC corps for the purposes of avoiding wardecs is "uncool", why is it such a big problem for people who have no interest in that side of the game?

These people aren't hurting you, they aren't depriving you of anything. Attempting to force people to play YOUR vision of the game will just make them quit.

Pindleskin
Amarr
Dark Materials
Posted - 2008.09.15 09:44:00 - [9]
 

This issue for me is this.
NPC player attacks a member of my corp, or can flips, or forces combat in some way. They destory a hauler alt/miner player, what ever.

There is no way for that player if not PVP speced to have his revenge, as it will take longer thatn the killrights timer to train the needed skills.

SO... make kill rights availible to sell, via contracts etc.

Player X kills player Y, Player Y has no skills for PVP, Player Y sells his kill rights to player Z. Player Z kills player Y and collects the bounty. Player X has no idea that player Z now has kill rights on him, as this will make the fight as fair as the 1st. As player Y had no idea he was a target from player X.

Does that make sense?

It will allow for revenge to take place, also make the bounty system work better etc.

Just my thoughts, and I know it has been said and might even be looked at.

Cheers

Pindle

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.09.15 11:46:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes

The only problem is, they have access to every single feature in the game, except soverignty.


Only soveregnity?

You are forgetting: all POS features, wardec, corporate hangars, mining operations were people can help you if someone steal your can, combat operations where someone can help you fighting an enemy and so on.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.09.15 11:49:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 15/09/2008 11:49:53
Originally by: Pindleskin
This issue for me is this.
NPC player attacks a member of my corp, or can flips, or forces combat in some way. They destory a hauler alt/miner player, what ever.

There is no way for that player if not PVP speced to have his revenge, as it will take longer thatn the killrights timer to train the needed skills.

SO... make kill rights availible to sell, via contracts etc.

Player X kills player Y, Player Y has no skills for PVP, Player Y sells his kill rights to player Z. Player Z kills player Y and collects the bounty. Player X has no idea that player Z now has kill rights on him, as this will make the fight as fair as the 1st. As player Y had no idea he was a target from player X.

Does that make sense?

It will allow for revenge to take place, also make the bounty system work better etc.

Just my thoughts, and I know it has been said and might even be looked at.

Cheers

Pindle


Question

In your scenario your whole corp can react to this player in the next 15 minutes. If you have killrights and engage him your corp members can freely remote rep you and if he fire on one of them the whole corp can attack him.

It is the member of a NPC corp that can't get his corp/fleet members to help, as kill right/aggression timer aren't shared.

Tradable kill right is a good idea, but not for the reason you depicted.

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2008.09.15 13:36:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes

The only problem is, they have access to every single feature in the game, except soverignty.


Only soveregnity?

You are forgetting: all POS features, wardec, corporate hangars, mining operations were people can help you if someone steal your can, combat operations where someone can help you fighting an enemy and so on.



I stand corrected Embarassed.

Jin Labarre
Posted - 2008.09.16 04:21:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Feilamya
Single-player Wardecs for NPC Corp Members


Good idea.

Originally by: Feilamya
Joining Corps or Alliances when at War

A corp should not be able to join an alliance if the corp has ongoing wars. In order to join the alliance, either the corp must get rid of its wardecs, or the alliance must wardec all enemies of the corp it is not already at war with.


Makes no sense at all and frells up the very concept of joining a larger force in search for mutual protection unless there is an option to still do so, given the Alliance accepts to join that war. Just make it a choice, rather than a limitation.

"Hey, may I join you? I got a war going on, though."
A) "Sure, you can join. Your enemies are our enemies."
B) "No, frell off. Come back when your personal war is over."

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.09.16 11:59:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
Single-player Wardecs for NPC Corp Members

A corp or alliance may wardec a single player in an NPC corp (and ONLY if he is in an NPC corp). The same rules as for corps apply. Wardec fees rise progressively if a single entity wardecs many individuals.

(optional) Players in NPC corps can wardec other players, corps and alliances.


Also, corp and alliance hopping messes up the wardec system. With single-player wardecs, this problem can be addressed:


NO..
one word..GRIEFING
ppl will get wardecced and get griefed and hence leave the game with no option of getting safe, some ppl just dont want to pvp in mmo's (strange I know but its their choice) and they shldnt be forced to pvp/leave the game if they dont.


Nekopyat
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:53:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Durzel
I must admit I don't understand the consternation about people in NPC corps.

Whilst I agree people dropping from regular corps to NPC corps for the purposes of avoiding wardecs is "uncool", why is it such a big problem for people who have no interest in that side of the game?

These people aren't hurting you, they aren't depriving you of anything. Attempting to force people to play YOUR vision of the game will just make them quit.


Because people in NPC corps tend to be doing not PvP activities. Non PvP activities tend to me mechanically set up so that they can't hold toe to toe with PvP fits/activities, in other words, they are easy targets. So you have all these easy kills flying around that you aren't allowed to shoot and that annoys the gankbears (i.e. people who want combat to be as easy as PvE but still want actual humans on the other side)

I actually have mixed feeling about the NPC corps. On the one hand, people who don't want to be bothered with wardecs (and take the reduced functionatlity hit) should have some way to still play. Wardecs can be very tiresome if that isn't your thing. On the other hand, alliances shouldn't be able to hide their logisitics chain behind the protection of an NPC corp (which is what the wardec system was designed to address,.. not the 'pay to grief' system it has become).

At minimal, I could see putting some further restrictions on NPC corp members.. no capitials (including freighters), maybe no other big ships (barges, battleships, maybe even T2 ships?) and seriously nerf the production capabilities of NPC stations (it is kinda strange how the BEST refining and manufacturing is in the safest place)

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.09.18 09:37:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Nekopyat

I actually have mixed feeling about the NPC corps. On the one hand, people who don't want to be bothered with wardecs (and take the reduced functionatlity hit) should have some way to still play. Wardecs can be very tiresome if that isn't your thing. On the other hand, alliances shouldn't be able to hide their logisitics chain behind the protection of an NPC corp (which is what the wardec system was designed to address,.. not the 'pay to grief' system it has become).

At minimal, I could see putting some further restrictions on NPC corp members.. no capitials (including freighters), maybe no other big ships (barges, battleships, maybe even T2 ships?) and seriously nerf the production capabilities of NPC stations (it is kinda strange how the BEST refining and manufacturing is in the safest place)



Some other restriction? Only access to noob ships, for example?

Think a second about your suggestions and what would happen to people that get throw out or leave a corporation.

As soon at that happens they can be incapable of using most or all the ships they own, incapable of moving them even for sale. If they are in the territory of a NRDS alliance and want to join a corporation that is red to the alliance they can't even move away the ships before joining.

Removing/changing refining is a move to damage new players (they have lousy refining skills and with your idea would use bad refinign facilities); make refinig in high sec almost impossible (no refining arrays at POS in 0.4+) and so on.

Why people want to "cure" a problem that don't exist for the most part?

The only semi-real part of the problem is the use by alliances of the NPC corps as a tool to protect the alliance logistic. But the logistic work can be done as easily through contracts and alt corps, so again it is mostly a false problem.




Sean Mcarthur
Posted - 2008.09.18 17:07:00 - [17]
 

i would say make NPC tax their player badly, like:
1) a speciel tax on refining(like 10% waste that goes to npc corp and can't be dealt with by skills og standings),
2) the npc corp takes 5% of the earning on sales on market
3) 30% "normal" tax

this would make it more balanced, cause there would be more money to make in player corps but they can be wardecked, NPC corps would be safer but har to make a good living.

Nekopyat
Posted - 2008.09.18 20:15:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Nekopyat

Some other restriction? Only access to noob ships, for example?


That is a pretty extreme example of a ship restriction. Something along the lines of 'no capitals' is more what I was thinking.

Quote:

Removing/changing refining is a move to damage new players (they have lousy refining skills and with your idea would use bad refinign facilities); make refinig in high sec almost impossible (no refining arrays at POS in 0.4+) and so on.


Hrm? you can't use refining arrays in high sec POSes?

That asside, I'm not sure this would be a 'bad' thing. A new player with bad refining skills is impacted yes, but not crippled. They will get less ISK/hour from mining and loot, but they will have more room to improve. It would be a good incentive to band together and set up POSes for refinding and mining operations for instance.

Quote:

Why people want to "cure" a problem that don't exist for the most part?


The question is then, is this something that could use a bit of balancing? Does CCP want to encourage people to move to player corps or not? If not then things are fine.. if they do then they have to do something about the relative attractiveness of NPC corps by either nerfing NPC corp capabilities or buffing player corps. Right now you get the vast majority of hi/low sec content (minus POSes) while in a NPC corp while also avoiding wardecs. So unless you want to put up a POS or wardec people, NPC corps are more attractive then player ones. Given the minimal utility of high sec POSes (research and little else) due to thier inferiority when compared to NPC stations, there isn't all that much incentive to form corps when you really think about it.

Quote:

The only semi-real part of the problem is the use by alliances of the NPC corps as a tool to protect the alliance logistic. But the logistic work can be done as easily through contracts and alt corps, so again it is mostly a false problem.


How do alts and such make it a false problem? Alt corps are a differnt matter since those can still be attacked.





Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.09.18 22:09:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: Venkul Mul

Some other restriction? Only access to noob ships, for example?


That is a pretty extreme example of a ship restriction. Something along the lines of 'no capitals' is more what I was thinking.



Quote:
Quote:

Removing/changing refining is a move to damage new players (they have lousy refining skills and with your idea would use bad refinign facilities); make refinig in high sec almost impossible (no refining arrays at POS in 0.4+) and so on.


Hrm? you can't use refining arrays in high sec POSes?

That asside, I'm not sure this would be a 'bad' thing. A new player with bad refining skills is impacted yes, but not crippled. They will get less ISK/hour from mining and loot, but they will have more room to improve. It would be a good incentive to band together and set up POSes for refinding and mining operations for instance.


No, you can't, refining arrays are limited to 0.3-.

Nice idea for the new players "you will lose 70% of your work, but you will have a lot of possibility to improve". Some other smart idea on how you can improve the experience of new players?

Quote:
Quote:

Why people want to "cure" a problem that don't exist for the most part?


The question is then, is this something that could use a bit of balancing? Does CCP want to encourage people to move to player corps or not? If not then things are fine.. if they do then they have to do something about the relative attractiveness of NPC corps by either nerfing NPC corp capabilities or buffing player corps. Right now you get the vast majority of hi/low sec content (minus POSes) while in a NPC corp while also avoiding wardecs. So unless you want to put up a POS or wardec people, NPC corps are more attractive then player ones. Given the minimal utility of high sec POSes (research and little else) due to thier inferiority when compared to NPC stations, there isn't all that much incentive to form corps when you really think about it.


People don't want to join Players corps mostly for the personality of most of the players corps CEO and directors.

Most of them want subjects willing to do anything they ask, pay, the taxes and never question orders, even when the orders are stupid.

Most corp take but never give back anything. So why someone should join?

What you should do is show how joining your corp will improve the game for the person joining. Instead you and your friends want to degrade the quality of other players game, so even if you are incapable of offering something decent, you will shine as if offering a good deal.

The concept "I can't make my corporation attractive, so nerf NPC corps, so I can seem attractive" is a sign a failure for your corp, not a problem of NPC corps.


Quote:
Quote:

The only semi-real part of the problem is the use by alliances of the NPC corps as a tool to protect the alliance logistic. But the logistic work can be done as easily through contracts and alt corps, so again it is mostly a false problem.


How do alts and such make it a false problem? Alt corps are a differnt matter since those can still be attacked.



Is is a false problem as it can be easily bypassed even if you chance the NPC corps.

You want to wardecc 20 two man corps to maybe block a alliance logistics? and then what you will do to block that alliance hauling contracts?

You kind of solution is only aimed at deleting a gamestile you don't like, it has nothing to do with balance.


Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.09.19 11:05:00 - [20]
 

If people want to just PvE in peace let them. For me the problem is when players get involved in PvP whilst having the protection of an NPC corps.

So some limitations on what NPC corp members can do may be the way forward but these should be only related to PvP activities such as:

  • Inability to lock another player first unless they are in your gang

  • Inability to take from somebody’s can unless they are in your gang.

  • Inability to salvage wrecks unless they were created by yourself or somebody in your gang.

  • Inability to use cyno generators or cloaks.


Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2008.09.19 15:44:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Feilamya
NPC corps were never meant to be a de facto PVP flag to protect players from wardecs.

So you were part of the design committee confirm / deny?

Nothing wrong with NPC corps, CCP probably wont even bother to read this thread its so useless.

oh and "Hi, I'm Posting in a useless Thread" shout ugh

Soporo
Caldari
Posted - 2008.09.19 17:36:00 - [22]
 

Like someone else said: tradeable or selleable Killrights would go a long way.

Nadir Zenith
Posted - 2008.09.20 13:05:00 - [23]
 

Simple solutions tend to be the best: Prevent NPC corp players from undocking in [ or otherwise entering] high sec with anything other than a tech one frigate, cruiser or destroyer. Low sec, they can fly whatever because anyone can shoot them there anyway.

New players [ who will only be flying frigates, cruisers, destroyers] arent hindered. People using NPC corps to hide from consequences for their actions are stopped. Invincable alt logistics are hindered. ISK farmers are threatened by war decs. No need for complicated tax systems that can be exploited via loopholes and so on.

And for the whole people who dont want to PvP cant be forced into player corps and the risks that go with that - it cant be forced, but its an MMO. The best MMO experiences come from banding together with other players to accomplish some goal, defend against some threat or to otherwise do something that cant be accomplished by themselves - even backing each other up against "griefing gankbears" or whatever.

The thing that turned EVE from "meh" to "YAAARRR!" for me was our old middling sized corp of high sec mission runners getting war decced by Privateers for a few weeks - I've got to say I wouldnt have continued playing much longer without the experience. We were inexperienced, but we were active, we had leadership, and we all Xed up to go out and get some fights in our crappy T1 frigates, cruisers and battlecruisers. It was great - fights ranging from solo dudes roaming in kitted out sleipnirs to gang fights. Probably the worst thing CCP ever did was nerf Privateers, as they denied that sort of experience [ which Privateers provided free of charge, bless their hearts ] to other players. The threat presented by the Privateer war decs led to a better corp spirit, more experienced players overall, and a chance for leaders to show themselves by FCing gangs and organising logistics and motivating people. People hiding in NPC corps will never have that, and its a pity they seem so determined to deny themselves the chance to experience real MMO gameplay.

Without that sort of experience, most accounts deactivate within a matter of months. EVE PvE is quite simply boring as hell - spreadsheets online FTW. It is PvP that makes the game fun, that keeps the customers coming back for more and opening multiple accounts.

Katana Seiko
Gallente
Posted - 2008.09.20 18:31:00 - [24]
 

Well, Caldari is at war with Gallente, Amarr is at war with Minmatar... That should be true with NPC Corporations as well. If you don't want to be involved in those wars, you have to start a new player corp... It's not like you're nonstop at war when you're in a player corp - but you should be if you belong to an NPC corp belonging to one of the factions...

Sarin Adler
Caldari
Posted - 2008.09.20 19:48:00 - [25]
 

My only problem with NPC corps are players without balls to have their alts in their original and grinding in hisec or doing logistics without fgear of attack. Fix that and it should be fine. No need to force 70% of carebear population to a playstyle.

Also tax them heavilly and restrict to lvl3 as the money they only contribute to economy by injecting isk & goods.

Catelyn Rose
Black Cross Research and Development
Posted - 2008.09.20 23:44:00 - [26]
 

I would be ok with much of what was discussed in this thread as long as:

1) They increase the Negative Security Standing to 100.00 so that Pirates that want to pirate can get themselves into a really nice hole pretty much making it impossible for them to ever come into empire again.

2) They make it so that pirates can't use Alts to transport goods out to low sec / null sec. You did the crime now suffer the consequences of less populated markets.

3) Once you have a bounty on your head you can't jump clone and abuse the bounty system.



 

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