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blankseplocked Figuring out the (RP) value of ISK in current-day prices
 
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.31 11:15:00 - [1]
 


Let's use the "base price" of some "generic consumer products" in EVE to try to determine just how much 1 ISK in the EVE world is worth compared to current day cash.

I'll use the following items:

Wheat : 100 ISK for 1,000 kg (assumed negligible package weight)
In the real-world, wheat prices are quite unstable right now, with much earlier prices around the 9$/bushel mark, but with records closer to 16$/bushel. Apparently a bushel of wheat means 60lb (around 27.2kg), so one unit of EVE wheat would be worth around 330-590$. So that gives us from here 1 ISK between 3 and 6 USD most likely.

Frozen food : 98 ISK per 400 kg
Dairy products : 160 ISK per 400 kg
Protein delicacies : 200 ISK for 400 kg
Frozen food (0.25 ISK/kg), dairy products (0.4 ISK/kg) and protein delicacies (0.5 ISK/kg), you can liken them with similarly priced goods exchange prices (various stock of frozen foods, milk and milk byproducts, TV dinners and such)... and you end up with 1 ISK being worth anywhere from 3 USD to 10 USD.

Spirits : 455 ISK for 2500 kg (assumed glass-bottled, so only around 1500 kg of actual cheap alcohool tops)
Spiced wine : 1,500 ISK for 500 kg (same glass-bottling idea, so say around 300 kg actual expensive alcohool)

Alcohoolic products wise, you end up at around 2 ISK per cheap mas-produced bottle, 30 ISK per expensive mass-produced bottle, so again, I think 1 ISK being worth anywhere from 3 to 10 USD is not too far-fetched either, hard to point down an exact number.

Planetary vehicles : 3,730 ISK a piece.
Planetary vehicles... well... that's cars, right ? What a surprise, pretty much the same rough guess-o-matic values, anywhere between 3 to 10 USD per ISK doesn't sound far-fetched at all.


Bottom line, the most likely value of 1 ISK is around 5 USD (give or take one dollar)


So... frigates cost between 100k and 1 mil USD (damned cheap).
Cruisers cost between 15 mil and 25 mil USD (hey, cheaper than a fighter jet, cool)
Battleships 300 to 500 mil USD (compared to a modern day nuclear carrier which is about the same size and costs over 4.5 bil each, dirt cheap too).
Carriers cost around 2 bil USD (still half of what a real carrier costs nowadays)
A titan would be worth a whooping 250-300 bil USD (there's no single thing in the world today worth that much).

Havohej
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
Posted - 2008.08.31 11:18:00 - [2]
 

Quote:
A titan would be worth a whooping 250-300 bil USD (there's no single thing in the world today worth that much).


It's me. I'm worth that much!

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.08.31 11:38:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 31/08/2008 11:44:23
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 31/08/2008 11:42:47
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 31/08/2008 11:40:38
Originally by: Akita T
Spirits : 455 ISK for 2500 kg (assumed glass-bottled, so only around 1500 kg of actual cheap alcohool tops)
Spiced wine : 1,500 ISK for 500 kg (same glass-bottling idea, so say around 300 kg actual expensive alcohool)

Alcohoolic products wise, you end up at around 2 ISK per cheap mas-produced bottle, 30 ISK per expensive mass-produced bottle, so again, I think 1 ISK being worth anywhere from 3 to 10 USD is not too far-fetched either, hard to point down an exact number.


Spiced wines would be cheaper then spirits though, in real world.

And you're claiming that over 1/3rd of a bottle is dead-weight on wine, and around 40% on spirits?

Not computing right.

And you pay for the bottle anyway, so: 1kg of spirit comes to 0.182 isk. That's one litre of "cheap product" as you assumed, 1kg is around 1litre. Normal "cheap bottle" is around 10 euros(default all regons counted). This would mean that one isk is around 50 euros.

This would bring an expensive frigate price to 25 million euros.
Cruiser between 150 million.
Etc.

Planetary vehicle?

3,730 isk by 50, is around 180.000 euros. Quite the normal price for a vehicle if you ask me, even a bit luxury.

I'd say 1 isk is 50 euros, that's about 70-80 bucks i think.

And if you want real RP value, you don't compare item prices, you compare nimeral prices.

Find gold, silver, or some such and compare that price.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.31 11:47:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 31/08/2008 11:51:51
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
And you're claiming that over 1/3rd of a bottle is dead-weight on wine, and around 40% on spirits?

Actually, around 40% "packaging weight" on both.
And packaging (the glass itself) if far cheaper than the contents anyway, even for cheap alcohool.
Also, you should be looking at goods exchange/manufacturer prices, not shelf retail prices when comparing to the real world.
And as an equivalence, I used for EVE "spirits" cheap alcohool in real life, be it cheap wine, cheap moonshine-ish alcohool, whatever up to the EVE "spiced wine" being the real-life equivalent of "label" spirits, decent wine, etc.
Cheap wine is usually sold at around 2-4 euro RETAIL price (far lower manufacturer price) per 0.7 liter bottle (alcohool is actually lighter than water), the price of the bottle itself is negligible (10-20 euro-cents) but the full bottle weighs more than 1kg most of the time (I've seen full bottles where the glass itself was almost half of the total weight).
Wink

Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Planetary vehicle? 3,730 isk by 50, is around 180.000 euros. Quite the normal price for a vehicle if you ask me, even a bit luxury.

Yesh. 10k euro is already above bottom-line car prices, 20k euro is a rather expensive car already. 180k is a damned expensive luxury vehicle.

Quote:
And if you want real RP value, you don't compare item prices, you compare nimeral prices.

Not really an option... you can't compare any of the EVE minerals nor moon materials with gold nor anything similar.
It's too much of a stretch.
You have to work with consumer products, something the "wealthy elite" (i.e. the capsuleers) doesn't look at with interest... you have to work with things the invisible NPC people use on a daily basis.

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.08.31 11:51:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 31/08/2008 11:51:09
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
And you're claiming that over 1/3rd of a bottle is dead-weight on wine, and around 40% on spirits?

Actually, around 40% "packaging weight" on both.
And packaging (the glass itself) if far cheaper than the contents anyway, even for cheap alcohool.
Also, you should be looking at goods exchange/manufacturer prices, not shelf retail prices when comparing to the real world.
And as an equivalence, I used for EVE "spirits" cheap alcohool in real life, be it cheap wine, cheap moonshine-ish alcohool, whatever up to the EVE "spiced wine" being the real-life equivalent of "label" spirits, decent wine, etc.
Cheap wine is usually sold at around 2-4 euro RETAIL price (far lower manufacturer price) per 0.7 liter bottle (alcohool is actually lighter than water), the price of the bottle itself is negligible (10-20 euro-cents) but the full bottle weighs more than 1kg most of the time (I've seen full bottles where the glass itself was almost half of the total weight).
Wink



Exactly, we could argue these points, prices(regions) etc forever. Is it retail price, are there taxes etc. So, take the raw price of a mineral that's closest to gold and compare that price, then just add that price to all items and go "gee, wheat is hella-expensive". Oh and, you pay for the packaging if you buy wine even as a retailer...still Wink

Take water for example, 2 euros/bottled water litre. 32 isk in game....for...mhmhm amount.

Doesn't compute with rest of the prices. Nothing adds up probably.

So you need a baseprice by a base mineral, then THAT gives you details on WHAT is valuable in THIS world.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:02:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 31/08/2008 12:03:08
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
So, take the raw price of a mineral that's closest to gold and compare that price

Seed above edit, unfeasable for comparison purposes for different reasons.

Quote:
Take water for example, 2 euros/bottled water litre. 32 isk in game....for...mhmhm amount.

Water in EVE has a base price of 35 ISK per 250 kg. The same bottle in EVE would be worth around 0.28 ISK.
Here, however, the package is usually worth more than the contents... and I can only guess that's true for both the hypothetical world of EVE as it is for RL.
And actually, in real-life, at-manufacturer-door BOTTLED price is closer to 1 euro/2l (2kg) bottle, and most of it is the actual bottle cost... you can get it much cheaper if you go for higher bottled volumes (like, say, the traditional 5 gallon water cooler) and do refills instead of purchasing the whole damned thing (1 USD/l with container, 20 cents/l as refill).

Bottom line, you get back around 5-10 USD for 1 ISK anyway Laughing

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:05:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 31/08/2008 12:05:15
Originally by: Akita T
Water in EVE has a base price of 35 ISK per 250 kg. The same bottle in EVE would be worth around 0.28 ISK.
Here, however, the package is usually worth more than the contents... and I can only guess that's true for both the hypothetical world of EVE as it is for RL.
And actually, in real-life, at-manufacturer-door BOTTLED price is closer to 1 euro/2l (2kg) bottle, and most of it is the actual bottle cost... you can get it much cheaper if you go for higher bottled volumes (like, say, the traditional 5 gallon water cooler) and do refills instead of purchasing the whole damned thing (1 USD/l with container, 20 cents/l as refill).

Bottom line, you get back around 5-10 USD for 1 ISK anyway Laughing



Depends if you go into the whole "i'm only buing the raw stuff and not counting packagings etc" and also you're counting US way, not counting "world" way, rest of the world ain't as cheap as the US.

You're assuming.

Gold price is constant in every part of the world, like siad, only thing you need to compare is raw minerals.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:12:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Gold price is constant in every part of the world, like siad, only thing you need to compare is raw minerals.

Find me the Correct™ EVE equivalent of RL gold, silver, iron, copper and so on and we have a deal Laughing
Sadly, you can't.
From a RP perspective, all that's left is stuff "capsuleers" never get to actually use.

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:15:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Gold price is constant in every part of the world, like siad, only thing you need to compare is raw minerals.

Find me the Correct™ EVE equivalent of RL gold, silver, iron, copper and so on and we have a deal Laughing
Sadly, you can't.
From a RP perspective, all that's left is stuff "capsuleers" never get to actually use.



Yeah, that's why, this comparison can't be made unless you compare all items on the market to their real life equivelants and calculate a "general" range for ISK Very Happy

Have to check if i can find a raw material or some such on the market. Not ingame so...ugh

Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar
Dead poets society
The Laughing Men
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:16:00 - [10]
 

Also.. If a capsuleer never got podded, would they be really fat?

It's not like they have much exercise.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:18:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Rhatar Khurin
Also.. If a capsuleer never got podded, would they be really fat?

I believe we'll find that out come winter Laughing

Abrazzar
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:25:00 - [12]
 

Let's take water: 1 unit of water is around 40 ISk and is o.25 m3. A m3 of water in Germany costs something around 2,- €.
One m3 of water are 4 x 40 = 160 ISK so 1 ISK is 1/80th €.
Talk about a strong currency, lol

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:29:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
Let's take water: 1 unit of water is around 40 ISk and is o.25 m3. A m3 of water in Germany costs something around 2,- €.
One m3 of water are 4 x 40 = 160 ISK so 1 ISK is 1/80th €.
Talk about a strong currency, lol

1 m^3 of TAP water, maybe. No package, etc.
Try 125 two-liter bottles, 50 5-liter jugs or 12 20-liter water dispenser bottles, see how much that costs Wink

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2008.08.31 12:32:00 - [14]
 

To be honest, I don't think there's a good way of doing an apples-to-apples comparison with this sort of thing.


Take wheat, for example, since it's already been brought up. There's a number of hurdles that need to be gotten over if you want to try and figure out comparative prices:

Firstly, there's no good way I can think of to calculate how much wheat costs to grow in EVE compared to the present day. On the one hand, you'd expect that EVE tech makes it much, much easier and cheaper to grow, but on the other hand, perhaps it's a premium product if you can essentially do everything using hydroponics and stuff, so growing it costs extra. There's also no consistent way to judge how population pressures might be affecting food prices, as there's no data on either planetary populations or planetary yields.

Secondly, it's not as if you're buying wheat straight out of the fields. It's gotta be harvested, processed, packaged up, shipped up to the nearest station (which could potentially be $OMGOUCH), unpackaged, put back into silos, moved across to the capsuleer section, registered with the markets and sorted into a delivery system which allows you to load a million tons of basically anything you like in under three seconds. This is all probably quite expensive. From personal experience, your average (assuming I'm relatively average as a player) capsuleer will happily pay an extra 500k without a second thought if it means not having to spent two minutes moving to a different station in the same system to get a slightly cheaper price on a given item. However you stack it up that's a large amount of money for two minutes' work, and it pretty much sums up how a) impatient and b) utterly economically distorted capsuleers are.

Following on from this, thirdly and most importantly, what you're seeing are capsuleer prices. Capsuleers are fabulously rich and have no conception of how much something is actually worth to a planetsider, so there's almost no reason for capsuleer prices to have anything to do with production costs and so on. In fact, when it comes to products like wheat, capsuleers aren't even consumers, they're trumped-up mercenary delivery men. The primary consideration in that context is the price differential between sellers and buyers, which dictates the profit margin, which in turn dictates what priority particular commodities will be assigned in the capsuleer market. If you want something shifted quickly, make sure the price differential is high and capsuleers will flock to move your cargo around. Bump the price down if you want lots of small deliveries because you're enabling pilots with small amounts of capital (and thus smaller ships, probably) to get involved, bump the price up if you're looking for freighter-loads and want to scare away the small fry. There's also no obviously reason why the SCC might not get involved with price-setting, which adds a further complication to the mix.


What I'm basically getting at is that there are (I think and hope) sound reasons why this sort of comparison is unlikely to give definitive answers, and as a result we fully reserve the right to be hand-wavy about the whole thing and simply say that one ISK is worth a reasonably large amount of "normal money" Cool

Abrazzar
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:39:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Abrazzar
Let's take water: 1 unit of water is around 40 ISk and is o.25 m3. A m3 of water in Germany costs something around 2,- €.
One m3 of water are 4 x 40 = 160 ISK so 1 ISK is 1/80th €.
Talk about a strong currency, lol

1 m^3 of TAP water, maybe. No package, etc.
Try 125 two-liter bottles, 50 5-liter jugs or 12 20-liter water dispenser bottles, see how much that costs Wink


So let's see: Found some table water sold for 5€ per liter. that'd be 5000€ per m3, that'd be 5000/160 € per ISK = 31.25 €/ISK

Cheap table water goes for 1/5th of that.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:42:00 - [16]
 


I believe it's already been stated somewhere in PF that ISK is really not comparable to any real life currency due to the fact it's not a real "Currency" as we know of them.

The Interstellar Kredit (ISK) is apparently a specifically designed standardised trading currency that's used by capsuleers, large volume traders and large corporations and megacorps to do business. It's used by CONCORD's SCC (Secure Commerce Commission) kinda like our real life world economy uses gold bullion to measure wealth on a single standard that can be compared.

The rest of the planetside population have their own currencies depending on race as far as I'm aware.

I can't exactly remember where I read it, if I can find the link I'll post it. Basically, the currency we use as capsuleers is the SCC's standardised trading value because we deal in values so high (buying a million tonnes of starship and the like) it's pointless dealing with standard planetside currencies in such vast quantities.


ImUrDestiny
Epic Catalyst Corp
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:46:00 - [17]
 

1 dollar is about 10 million isk, based on GTC prices.

Yes i know you mean something different, but i don't care.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.31 14:27:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 31/08/2008 14:29:53
Originally by: Verone
The Interstellar Kredit (ISK) is apparently a specifically designed standardised trading currency that's used by capsuleers, large volume traders and large corporations and megacorps to do business. It's used by CONCORD's SCC (Secure Commerce Commission) kinda like our real life world economy uses gold bullion to measure wealth on a single standard that can be compared.
The rest of the planetside population have their own currencies depending on race as far as I'm aware.

Well, you can still try to assign various local-never-dealt-with-as-a-capsuleer local currency to ISK values any time (and locals probably do), and you can also try to find out (roughly) how much ISK would be worth in today's currencies.
I mean, you already can say today's USD is worth 5 cents of the USD back in the '70s (or whatever, you get the idea, the 5 cents was a number pulled out of my ass), why not try to do the same with ISK ? Twisted Evil


The only way to do it in a way that even remotely makes sense would be the "cost of living" approach, or in other words, the cost of various goods used by "planeteers" (as oposed to "capsuleers").
We did have various backstory stuff telling things like "the capsuleer that tipped a guy in a bar so much he bought his own island", didn't we ? Wink

Kharadran Sullath
Caldari
Subordination
Posted - 2008.08.31 16:11:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Kharadran Sullath on 31/08/2008 16:11:10
I recall a passage from the RP news created during the latest Alliance Tournament. A correspondent followed certain crewmembers from different ships in different alliances. Most died, but those who lived were granted a lump sum of, I think, 100,000 ISK as their payment for the ordeal of surviving the tourny. The crewmembers were with that money apparently able to send all their kids into capsuleer schools, immediately retire, move to a rich neighbourhood and buy a nice new planetary vehicle.
I think its fair to say that ISK is worth quite a great bit more than planetside currency.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.08.31 16:31:00 - [20]
 

You forgot to take one of those 'common goods' as platinum. The moon mineral. I think it was 32 isk for 22 tons or something like that ?

There is relatively long discussion about it in EVE-Library also, basically same result what that dev comment up there was, just over some 5 pages or so.

From previous comment's by devs I have also got impression it is 'big money', ie tipping your bartender 2000 isk will make sure he will never have to work again if he does not want to.

Fenren
Minmatar
Bure Astro Photography
Posted - 2008.08.31 17:01:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Fenren on 31/08/2008 17:20:41
what about the price of marines and such?

a marine costs 1k isk (baseprice)

that covers training, equipment, salaries and so on for the rest of that marines life!

so it seems to be a little more than 5$ and more than 50€ too.

but then i can probably go to some low economic country and buy myself a shild for less than 1k € (althou it would be dificult so feed it and so on for less than 4k € for the rest of his life :P)


edit: or you can check the price of station services in amarr or minmatar space (as it is mostly done with human labour Laughing) how long does it take to build a frig? and check how long it would take to build a 747, if you dump a huge pile of raw materilas (not pre-made metal sheets or such, just a big pile of metal)in man-hours and give them a quite low salary, they are slaves or slum-workers. divide those two costs and you get another €/isk value (most likely quite high :P)

or just remove the recyckle-value of a 747 from its price and divide that with the station cervice cost of a frig.

you must consder that it might excist sheaper ways to mine than to let pod pilots do it, althou it might take too much time for the impatient pod-poulation.

Ehranavaar
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.31 18:25:00 - [22]
 

a shuttle was 9000 isk for a long time. a shuttle weighs 1200 tonnes which is the size of a small patrol frigate of a modern navy. just the raw pile of 1200 tonnes of metal would be worth upwards of 2.4 million us dollars these days before you consider doing anything towards making a ship out of the pile. you pretty much have to figure an isk at several thousand us dollars if you are considering ship values at all.

Jonathan Priest
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.31 19:08:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Jonathan Priest on 31/08/2008 19:09:58
Originally by: Akita T

Wheat : 100 ISK for 1,000 kg (assumed negligible package weight)
In the real-world, wheat prices are quite unstable right now, with much earlier prices around the 9$/bushel mark, but with records closer to 16$/bushel. Apparently a bushel of wheat means 60lb (around 27.2kg), so one unit of EVE wheat would be worth around 330-590$. So that gives us from here 1 ISK between 3 and 6 USD most likely.


That’s wheat on the ground though. A planet probably produces almost all of what it needs (shipping from another planet would probably be out of reach for most people) so goods for the average person would never show up on the market in a station. I think its more likely the goods are for those living on stations/ships. So it might be better to ask how much it would cost to get a bushel of wheat into orbit or to grow it in space.

amGreat
Posted - 2008.08.31 19:13:00 - [24]
 

here is the issue, everything is priced on earth relative to its supply and demand. It is impossible to compare wheat or water or what have you to our current products because we do not know if supply has changed significantly, say hydroponics makes wheat extremely cheap or some disease makes wheat extremely rare luxury item. We do not know if demand has changed why eat wheat when there is something much better. In other words the utility of the products you are comparing between rl and eve might be significantly different, and thus you cannot use simple proportions to value isk. Also comparing package and product is useless, most of you are intermixing the two and your discounting transportation a significant cost on earth even when not sending stuff through space.

In order to value isk you would need to know the average income on a planet. Even better would be average welfare line, average wealth line, average extreme wealth line planetside. Then you could conclude that capsuleers are extremely wealthy...wait the PF already says they are.


SUPLY AND DEMAND IS NOT CONSTANT LONGTERM

Alrich
Posted - 2008.08.31 19:28:00 - [25]
 

price on water is not for consumers, it is for stations. inter-stellar water might be at an astronomic level as they can recycle it.

water prices, and food prices for that matter, can not be used to mesure the € value of isk, as it is not consumer prices. it is more likely that a station buys water or food when their own runs dangerously low. so they buy it to awoyd starvaison

masternerdguy
Gallente
Meerkat Maner
Posted - 2008.08.31 19:31:00 - [26]
 

simple comparison

space shuttle in rl costs like 4 billion USD
eve shuttle costs like 25k.

This means the eve isk has more value.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.31 19:39:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: masternerdguy
simple comparison

space shuttle in rl costs like 4 billion USD
eve shuttle costs like 25k.

This means the eve isk has more value.


Or space shuttles of today are grossly overpriced, which if you take the latest competitions in space flight and the corruption in the major space agencies of the US, Russia and China (as in, the amount of money the government puts into these agencies vice the amount of product produced by them), I think that it might actually be far cheaper to make a much higher-tech spacecraft.



 

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