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Sensoura Opemtora
Posted - 2008.08.28 08:44:00 - [1]
 

I was messing around with the tracking guide chart wizard, putting in figures to try and figure out survivability in different situations, and I couldn't figure out what effect range had on transversal velocity. The little diagram thing they have leads me to think that it doesn't matter what range your at as long as your moving at right angles to the other ship (assuming he is moving towards you) then your transversal will be what ever your speed is.

Is that how it works? I would have thought that further range would have a reducing effect, but there is nothing that says that that is the case.
Can anyone clear this up please?

Reven Cordelle
Caldari
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.08.28 08:47:00 - [2]
 

Open your overview, check the "Transversal Velocity" box in the options.. wherever it is, and the overview will tell you what the TV of your target is in relation to you. Get this number as low as you can.

Its that simple.

Range = Slower TV if the ships are still travelling at the same speed.

Get your TV low, and your optimal range in line with your guns' limits... and its happy pew pew time.

Silver Night
Caldari
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2008.08.28 08:49:00 - [3]
 

Range will have a reducing effect, essentially.

Think of a circle. It is 10km around. You are going 1km/sec. So in 1 second, you go a tenth of the way around the circle. That means that for tracking, the tracking speed has to be up to handling 1/10th of a circle.

Now the circle is 100km around. You are still going 1km/s. You only go 1/100th of the way around the circle. So the guns only have to track 1/100th of a circle a second.

You will notice that the tracking speed of guns is in radians. Radians are a unit based on fractions of a circle, as it happens. So the more of a circle you can describe in a given amount of time, the higher your transversal and the tougher it is to track you.

Abbadon
Caldari
Pukin' Dogs
D0GMA
Posted - 2008.08.28 09:15:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Abbadon on 28/08/2008 09:16:09
When working with transversal velocity always think in rads/s or degrees sec.

1 Rad = 57 degrees approx so approx 6.3 radians in a full circle.

Now if you look at a turrets stats you will see the tracking speed is shown as rad/sec.

So if a turret has tracking of 1 rad/sec it means that it will take the gun 6.3 secs to rotate thru a full circle.
Therefore if an orbiting ship can fly round you in less than 6.3 secs your turrets will not be able to keep up and shots will miss.
If the ship takes more than 6.3 secs to orbit, your guns can keep up and hit.

Now if that orbiting ship moves further out to orbit, its speed will be the same (negating effect of mass/inertia) but it will have further to travel therefore it will take longer therefore your guns can keep up easier.

If the is ship comes closer and its speed is constant, it will have less distance to travel around orbit thus will orbit in less time thus guns will have harder time keeping up.

Saietor Blackgreen
Armored Saints
Posted - 2008.08.28 09:45:00 - [5]
 

Tracking guide uses transversal velocity, because its more convenient to use - you can easily estimate minimum-average-maximum fo it it for any target, knowing your speed, target's speed and the situation you're trying to model.

Guide's calculator then divides transversal by range, converting it with angular velocity (radian/second), and compares that to gun tracking in tracking formula, figuring out the chance to hit. Then chance to hit versus range is plotted.

You get the output graph of damage versus range, there is no way range can be included into calculations, if it is one of the outputs, see?

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.28 10:06:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 10:07:48
Transversal velocity is "sideways velocity". It does not matter if something is 500m away, or 50km, if he's moving at 200m/s sideways in relation to you then that's what he does regardless of his distance to you.

So transversal velocity isn't the number you're actually using to determine tracking but rather one variable of the equation, The other variable would be range. So transversal speed combined with range gives you a tracking number.

The reason why a lot of people rather use TV than radial velocity (which is what tracking actually is) is because it gives you more info on what's going on. If I see 5 targets on my overview and all I can see is their speed (1 column) and radial velocity (tracking) then yes I can easily see if I can hit it properly regarding tracking but it doesn't help me visualize what is actually going on.

If I have 2 column, one for speed and one for transversal speed then all of a sudden I can correlate between those 2 variables and in my mind visualize what that target is actually doing. If he's going 500m/s and his transversal speed is 0 then he's either coming right at me or moving away from me, or vice versa if his transversal is equal to hios speed you know he's orbiting you. And anything in between.

For me as a player it's much more important most of the time (snipers for instance might see things differently) to have a concept of what's going on rather than have an accurate number on some variable called tracking. After a while people will have guesstimates about being able to hit stuff at a certain range while having a certain TV.

So again; TV is not the answer of the equation but 1 of the 2 variables to GET the answer.

Sensoura Opemtora
Posted - 2008.08.28 10:07:00 - [7]
 

Thank you for your time and your answers. I get it now.

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.08.28 10:10:00 - [8]
 

There's movement in battle in EVE? Shocked

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.28 10:10:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sheriff Jones
There's movement in battle in EVE? Shocked


Yes, every time you get moved by a GM to clear the area.

Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.08.28 11:02:00 - [10]
 

Transversal is useful, but 'angular speed' is even better for turrets.

Deb Dukar
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.08.28 11:49:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Deb Dukar on 28/08/2008 11:51:49
from my experience the transV seems either bugged or im simply to stupid to get it right.

it doesnt matter if an enemy ship is orbiting me at 70km or 10km. both ranges have like 200m/s for me.

shoundnt the transV be far lower when the target is far away??

PS: on the other hand, angular speed seems to be what im looking for.

edit: never mind ... Cygnus Zhada had the answer for me

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.28 12:26:00 - [12]
 

OK, tbh, that should be "there is movement in large battles in EVE". And out of irony mode, with current webs, once someone is tackled... there really isn't any movement.

Meridius Dex
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.08.28 14:32:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada

Transversal velocity is "sideways velocity". It does not matter if something is 500m away, or 50km, if he's moving at 200m/s sideways in relation to you then that's what he does regardless of his distance to you.

So transversal velocity isn't the number you're actually using to determine tracking but rather one variable of the equation, The other variable would be range. So transversal speed combined with range gives you a tracking number.

The reason why a lot of people rather use TV than radial velocity (which is what tracking actually is) is because it gives you more info on what's going on. If I see 5 targets on my overview and all I can see is their speed (1 column) and radial velocity (tracking) then yes I can easily see if I can hit it properly regarding tracking but it doesn't help me visualize what is actually going on.

If I have 2 column, one for speed and one for transversal speed then all of a sudden I can correlate between those 2 variables and in my mind visualize what that target is actually doing. If he's going 500m/s and his transversal speed is 0 then he's either coming right at me or moving away from me, or vice versa if his transversal is equal to hios speed you know he's orbiting you. And anything in between.

For me as a player it's much more important most of the time (snipers for instance might see things differently) to have a concept of what's going on rather than have an accurate number on some variable called tracking. After a while people will have guesstimates about being able to hit stuff at a certain range while having a certain TV.

So again; TV is not the answer of the equation but 1 of the 2 variables to GET the answer.
Thanks, Cygnus. After months of trying to grasp the maths of this and having added speed and transversal to my overview, your explanation finally makes it clear.

DubanFP
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.08.28 14:36:00 - [14]
 

Must.. resist... urge... to... Math... ARGGHHG

Jameroz
Echoes of Space
Posted - 2008.08.28 14:42:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Jameroz on 28/08/2008 14:42:58
Originally by: Abbadon
1 Rad = 57 degrees approx so approx 6.3 radians in a full circle.

In radians full circle is 2π exact Wink

There's also the Angular Velocity that will display speed in radians... easier to compare with tracking then.


 

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