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Zo5o
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.25 06:00:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Zo5o on 25/08/2008 06:57:11

I ask this due to circumstantial evidence/personal experience which seems to suggest to me that it does.

Long story short: my Kronos takes 30-40 seconds longer to complete the level 4 mission Gone Beserk, EVERY TIME, if I only bring optimal range scripts for my two tracking comps (I discovered this when I accidentally forgot to bring tracking scripts, and have tested it several times since with near flawless execution) as opposed to bringing both optimal and tracking scripts, and switching them out as needed.

On Gone Beserk, all the rats are pretty much flying straight at me the entire time, 0 transversal or damn close to it. I never let any of them (aside from the two frigs) get anywhere near orbit range before they pop.

So, it would SEEM to me that those two tracking scripts are enhancing my hit quality, and therefore my DPS.

Is this really the case, or is the increase in my mission completion time every time I don't bring tracking scripts simply a coincidence?

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.25 06:52:00 - [2]
 

40 seconds isnt very accurate on a mission that takes at least 20 minutes to complete.

And the transversal is not zero. Put radial velocity in your overview and you see it. Also do you fire on the cruisers or do you let your drones handle that? No way you got 0 transversal vs those cruisers all the time.

Zo5o
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.25 06:56:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Zo5o on 25/08/2008 07:13:25

Quote:
40 seconds isnt very accurate on a mission that takes at least 20 minutes to complete.


It takes me about 8 minutes to complete, sometimes a few seconds less.

Quote:
And the transversal is not zero. Put radial velocity in your overview and you see it. Also do you fire on the cruisers or do you let your drones handle that? No way you got 0 transversal vs those cruisers all the time.


I fire on the cruisers when they're 40km+ out. They all have orbits of 15km. Their transversal may not be 0, but it's damn close. The radial velocity probably isn't even 1/100th of my turrets' tracking capabilities. I purposely kill all the cruisers first before even touching the reinforcement Hydras in order to minimize their transversal. Oh, and I one-volley every cruiser with Fed Navy Uranium, which I still have in my guns from having killed the initial spawn at 70-80km. Laughing

Like I said, every ship in the mission is pretty much flying straight at me, except the reinforcement Hydras which are flying straight away from me, with MWD'ing sig radius no less. I kill every ship FAR before they get anywhere CLOSE to orbiting range.

Saietor Blackgreen
Armored Saints
Posted - 2008.08.25 07:04:00 - [4]
 

Quality of hits distribution for turrets depends on chance to hit. Calculation can be described by the following logic:

tracking vs transversal is calculated -> modified by signature radius vs signature resolution ratio -> falloff penalty applied (if applicable) -> chance to hit is calculated -> a separate roll (random from 0 to 1) is done and compared to chance-to-hit to determine which quality of hit is done, and determine wrecking.

so it doesnt matter why you miss - because of tracking or because of falloff - your quality of hits will be decreasing by the same law, chance to hit is all that matters. In effect it just means that at 50% chance to hit your effective DPS is not 50%, but around 40% due to hit quality reduction.

Search the www.eve-search.com for exact math if you like - it was tested and re-engineered long ago by Ishiguro I think.

Recnac
Shades Corp
Posted - 2008.08.25 10:55:00 - [5]
 

The ever usefull Tracking guide Linkage

Nocturnal Avenger
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.08.25 11:16:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Zo5o
It takes me about 8 minutes to complete, sometimes a few seconds less.

Accept mission, undock, warp to mission, kill about 15BS some cruisers and frigates, return to agent and complete mission. About 500 seconds...?

If yes - nerf you :)

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2008.08.25 11:43:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Quality of hits distribution for turrets depends on chance to hit. Calculation can be described by the following logic:

tracking vs transversal is calculated -> modified by signature radius vs signature resolution ratio -> falloff penalty applied (if applicable) -> chance to hit is calculated -> a separate roll (random from 0 to 1) is done and compared to chance-to-hit to determine which quality of hit is done, and determine wrecking.

so it doesnt matter why you miss - because of tracking or because of falloff - your quality of hits will be decreasing by the same law, chance to hit is all that matters. In effect it just means that at 50% chance to hit your effective DPS is not 50%, but around 40% due to hit quality reduction.

Search the www.eve-search.com for exact math if you like - it was tested and re-engineered long ago by Ishiguro I think.


That doesn't really answer the question though whether when you already have a 100% (or close to) hit chance, more tracking will improve your hit quality.
I don't have any formulas, but from personal experience I would also say it does. I recently switched from Nightmare to Paladin for the loot clumping ability, and it does the same missions ever so slightly slower, and the only difference in loadout is the lack of the tracking bonus. And pretty much any NPC I shoot at is in optimal range and at very low transversal of course.
Not that this difference comes anywhere close to beating the tractor bonus, but it IS noticeable.

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2008.08.25 11:58:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Le Skunk on 25/08/2008 12:00:55
Whilst I applaud the OPS zeal for efficency, his post contains further seeds for the nerfing of missions in high sec.

These missions were not designed to be burned through as if a player was running to the shop to get some milk. They were intended to be a chanllange, but with todays ships,skills, implants and setups, the Rats provide no challenge at all.

The OP shouldnt be worrying about shaving 40 seconds off his mission time. He should be worrying about the rats blowing his ship up.

Lv 4 missions need fixing. CCP Read and think.

SKUNK

Another Forum'Alt
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.08.25 12:00:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Le Skunk

Lv 5 missions need fixing. CCP Read and think.

SKUNK

Fixed it for you. L5s are meant to be the challenging ones, they are just useless due to lack of reward.

Sarin Adler
Caldari
Posted - 2008.08.25 12:28:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Le Skunk
Edited by: Le Skunk on 25/08/2008 12:00:55
Whilst I applaud the OPS zeal for efficency, his post contains further seeds for the nerfing of missions in high sec.

These missions were not designed to be burned through as if a player was running to the shop to get some milk. They were intended to be a chanllange, but with todays ships,skills, implants and setups, the Rats provide no challenge at all.

The OP shouldnt be worrying about shaving 40 seconds off his mission time. He should be worrying about the rats blowing his ship up.

Lv 4 missions need fixing. CCP Read and think.

SKUNK


Please stop using uber mission runners as standard. Sick of reading "lvl4 can yield 40-60 mill. isk an hour)", you know the avergae SP of eve citizen is below 2m SP? This guy surelly has a bunchload of SP to maximize his profit also he knows his stuff, so he should be rewarded for it.

Use other arguments, not flawed ones. Cheers.

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2008.08.25 12:52:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Le Skunk on 25/08/2008 12:52:19
Originally by: Sarin Adler
Originally by: Le Skunk
Edited by: Le Skunk on 25/08/2008 12:00:55
Whilst I applaud the OPS zeal for efficency, his post contains further seeds for the nerfing of missions in high sec.

These missions were not designed to be burned through as if a player was running to the shop to get some milk. They were intended to be a chanllange, but with todays ships,skills, implants and setups, the Rats provide no challenge at all.

The OP shouldnt be worrying about shaving 40 seconds off his mission time. He should be worrying about the rats blowing his ship up.

Lv 4 missions need fixing. CCP Read and think.

SKUNK



Please stop using uber mission runners as standard. Sick of reading "lvl4 can yield 40-60 mill. isk an hour)", you know the avergae SP of eve citizen is below 2m SP? This guy surelly has a bunchload of SP to maximize his profit also he knows his stuff, so he should be rewarded for it.

Use other arguments, not flawed ones. Cheers.


Nanos were pinpointed for nerfing because uber 50 mill skill point 6 bilion isk vagas could do high speeds. Where as the average nano pilot was doing a lot lot less.

See the correlation?

NERF lv 4s.

SKUNK

Saietor Blackgreen
Armored Saints
Posted - 2008.08.25 13:35:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
That doesn't really answer the question though whether when you already have a 100% (or close to) hit chance, more tracking will improve your hit quality.


It does answer the question. There is no such thing as "extra tracking". The higher your traking/ag. velocity ratio, the closer you are to 100% hit chance. The closer you are to 100% chance, the closer you are to "nominal" distribution of hit quality ratio, which is equivalent to the DPS EFT shows you.

Transversal is 0, and target is within optimal, your tracking parameter does not affect anything. As well as signature parameter, as its just a modifier to tracking. No, more tracking will not increase quality of hits.

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
I don't have any formulas, but from personal experience I would also say it does. I recently switched from Nightmare to Paladin for the loot clumping ability, and it does the same missions ever so slightly slower, and the only difference in loadout is the lack of the tracking bonus. And pretty much any NPC I shoot at is in optimal range and at very low transversal of course.


Your experience is delusional. Your target's transversals may be low, but claiming that they are "always negligible" is wrong. They are positive, and often significant.

You cant make conclusions about tracking mechanics basing on the time you do missions with two different ships! There are so many variables and changes here, and you claim 40 seconds difference to indicate a factor in tracking? Come on :)

If you do want to test it, do it properly. Sample targets, consistent ship you fire from, consistent transversals, and just change your tracking by turning on TCs.

Then you can make conclusions. But you already know what you'll find :)

Catherine Frasier
Posted - 2008.08.25 13:36:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Le Skunk
Edited by: Le Skunk on 25/08/2008 12:00:55
Whilst I applaud the OPS zeal for efficency, his post contains further seeds for the nerfing of missions in high sec.
Which is clearly the intent of this thread. It's the Eve version of concern trolling. "Oh help me! I'm a mission runner and I only make a pathetic 600M isk per hour!", then wait for the "NeRf levle foarz!!!11one!" to jump in.

Saietor Blackgreen
Armored Saints
Posted - 2008.08.25 13:40:00 - [14]
 

Am I the only person in this cold dark thread who actually used it for its intended purpose without projecting my own wishes for game changes onto it?

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2008.08.25 13:57:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Le Skunk
Edited by: Le Skunk on 25/08/2008 12:00:55
Whilst I applaud the OPS zeal for efficency, his post contains further seeds for the nerfing of missions in high sec.
Which is clearly the intent of this thread. It's the Eve version of concern trolling. "Oh help me! I'm a mission runner and I only make a pathetic 600M isk per hour!", then wait for the "NeRf levle foarz!!!11one!" to jump in.


The ops credentials are irrelevant.

Q: Do LV4 mission runners set times for missions and try to beat them.
A: Yes

They do this because

a) the mission is so deadly dull and unchallangeing it helps to provide some sort of goal for them
b) because they are utterly unconcerned with the 30 ships shooting at them

These missions are supposed to be a challenge. CCP did not intend you to be able to warp in and kill the same pirate rats, in the same order, with the same missile type,again and again and again and again - without even a hint of danger.

The most dangerous thing to a lv4 mission runner is lag. And when thats the truth - then CCP need to step in.

Ships, skills, implants and setups have all combined to render lv4 missions obsolete. They need seriously toughing up, rewards significantly dropped, or removed from high sec altogether.

This will provide the BALANCE the game so desperately craves.

SKUNK

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:01:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 25/08/2008 14:05:12

I'd sadly have to agree with Le Skunk... to some degree anyway.
The least brutal balancing method would be this, IMO : Linkage
Still has some issues (i.e. theoretically, mission-running would still be a bit too easy compared to other things, but at least it would be balanced according to security tier, and it STILL doesn't address the issue of mission-vs-anything-else balance) but it's better than nothing.



As for the OP's question... yes, tracking DOES affect quality of hits, and no, NPCs never really get 0 transversal, just a transversal that's really low.
With rails (as I really doubt you run blasters in missions), you have a pretty bad base tracking, so even the tiny transversal they have while aproaching orbit matters in actual DPS dealt... not much, but still... like you said, 30-40 seconds out of 40-ish minutes, that's barely a bit over 1% DPS difference, which sounds about right.

Crope
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:08:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger
Originally by: Zo5o
It takes me about 8 minutes to complete, sometimes a few seconds less.

Accept mission, undock, warp to mission, kill about 15BS some cruisers and frigates, return to agent and complete mission. About 500 seconds...?

If yes - nerf you :)


You don't need to kill the whole lot, only the group on the right to complete the mission, I assume thats what the OP is talking about when hes quoting his 8minutes figure...

Catherine Frasier
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:09:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Le Skunk
a) the mission is so deadly dull and unchallangeing it helps to provide some sort of goal for them
b) because they are utterly unconcerned with the 30 ships shooting at them
Unless you are speaking for yourself...

Actually, there is no unless: Speak for yourself, don't speak for "mission runners". While it's undoubtedly true that some 40M sp players find level 4 missions too easy, that's hardly representative. And it's hardly the point.

Sandra Tyrell
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:11:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Sandra Tyrell on 25/08/2008 14:48:43
Originally by: Le Skunk
They were intended to be a chanllange,



Says who?

Quote:

but with todays ships,skills, implants and setups, the Rats provide no challenge at all.



How much of a challenge did the last Indy you blew up present? Or the last PvE Raven whose mission you busted? Or the last highsec missionship or Hulk you suicided?


Quote:

The OP shouldnt be worrying about shaving 40 seconds off his mission time. He should be worrying about the rats blowing his ship up.



Missioning is a game of efficiency and a game of progression. At first it's a challenge to complete at all, later it becomes a challenge to do it faster then the next guy.

What you claim in this quote is, well, silly. If you scale the difficulty up so Zo5o's main concern is being blown up, your average missioneer has little chance of completing it in a reasonable time-frame, if at all. You may think this is a good thing, I doubt CCP does though.

EDIT: Let me clarify, for ship setups where you worry about 30-40seconds in completion time, you do have to worry about being blown up, as you usually don't have enough tank to survive should your weapons suddenly stop firing for a minute or two.

I.e. if I use my normal GoneBerserk setup, and I wait until I'm in half armor to start the repper, I will be deep into structure before the mission is over, at worst blown up (if I don't warp out.) If I start it too soon, I risk capping out before it's over. If I increase tank/cap, my completion time suffers.

This is the risk/reward already built into missions, that your average whiner prat doesn't understand. Neither does Akita T for that matter.

PS.
My corpies Nightmare is ever so slightly faster still, tehehee Wink. Of course, my Domi is a lot slower, and it's the best I got for this mission Sad

Epidemis
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:11:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger
Originally by: Zo5o
It takes me about 8 minutes to complete, sometimes a few seconds less.

Accept mission, undock, warp to mission, kill about 15BS some cruisers and frigates, return to agent and complete mission. About 500 seconds...?

If yes - nerf you :)


You only need to kill 1/3 of that, the trigger branch.

Sandra Tyrell
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:27:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger
Originally by: Zo5o
It takes me about 8 minutes to complete, sometimes a few seconds less.

Accept mission, undock, warp to mission, kill about 15BS some cruisers and frigates, return to agent and complete mission. About 500 seconds...?

If yes - nerf you :)


I believe he means the time spent in the actual mission area. Usually measured by looking at the time between the first and last entries in the log pertaining to that mission, for the lazy who don't have a stopwatch handy.

Sandra Tyrell
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:33:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Akita T
like you said, 30-40 seconds out of 40-ish minutes, that's barely a bit over 1% DPS difference, which sounds about right.



That's 8 minutes, so 6-8%.

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:36:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Akita T
As for the OP's question... yes, tracking DOES affect quality of hits
I'm fairly certain that has been debunked before, I remember reading testing which proved conclusively that tracking only affected chance-to-hit, and assuming you hit a target the hit quality (excellent, barely scratches, well aimed, wrecking, etc) distribution was the same between two ships that had diametrically opposed tracking stats.

Sandra Tyrell
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:43:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Sandra Tyrell on 25/08/2008 15:02:20


To OP, perhaps the tracking formula helps.

It was linked by Wil Smithx (and Galan Undris) in this thread, which deals with TP's vs TC's. Might also be of interest to you.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:52:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Sandra Tyrell
To OP, perhaps the tracking formula helps.
So, in other words, if transversal truely is exactly zero, then no, tracking does not matter. However, the chances of that ever happening — especially for a prolonged period of time — is so minute that it doesn't really matter.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:52:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Durzel
Originally by: Akita T
As for the OP's question... yes, tracking DOES affect quality of hits
I'm fairly certain that has been debunked before, I remember reading testing which proved conclusively that tracking only affected chance-to-hit, and assuming you hit a target the hit quality (excellent, barely scratches, well aimed, wrecking, etc) distribution was the same between two ships that had diametrically opposed tracking stats.


Tracking affects chance to hit, and the quality of hit distribution is directly determined by the chance to hit.
You're confusing it with WRECKING shot chance, which is always 1% of total shots (assuming you have at least 1% chance to hit... if you have 1% or less chance to hit, all hits are wreckings, but they're no longer 1% of total shots).

The BOTTOM 1% of the hits are wreckings, then the rest of 99% of shots are arranged in increasing damage order (*0.5 to *1.5), and ALL damages in between are possible.
The "lightly hits", "barely scratches", "perfectly strikes" messages are just flavor text applied to a certain range of multipliers, but the actual damage dealt is in increments of 0.1 damage, always. If you have a weapon that deals 1000.0 "nominal" damage, you will see damages (on unresisted hull) from 500.0, then 500.1, 500.2, up to 1499.9 and 1500.0, with the occasional 3000.0 wrecking.
Lowering chance to hit always cuts off the highest damage NON-WRECKING hits (which turn into misses), while the wreckings are the last to dissapear.

Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
Posted - 2008.08.25 15:21:00 - [27]
 

Remember that if your gun's signature resolution exactly matches your target's signature radius, your target's range is at or below your gun's optimal, and your target's angular velocity exactly matches your gun's tracking, you still only have a 50% chance to hit. In short, you need to compensate for the cruisers' lower signature radius by improving your tracking.

Matalino
Posted - 2008.08.25 15:33:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Bronson Hughes
In short, you need to compensate for the cruisers' lower signature radius by improving your tracking.
To hit a battleship with large turrets for 100% of your EFT DPS you need to have tracking that is 6.41x faster than the angular velocity of your target.

To hit a cruiser with large turrets for 100% of your EFT DPS you need to have tracking that is 20.5x faster than the angular velocity of your target.

Imhothar Xarodit
Minmatar
Wolverine Solutions
Posted - 2008.08.25 15:44:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Imhothar Xarodit on 25/08/2008 15:44:28
Back at the OP:
Official EVE Tracking Guide

To sum up the first page:
Hitting a target depends on 3 independant calculations:

1. Distance against optimal and falloff
2. Signature radius against signature resolution
3. Transversal velocity against tracking speed

Go through that guide, it nicely explains how hitting a target works. On the last page fill in the fields and study the graph.

Stu Pendisdick
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.08.25 16:04:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Stu Pendis**** on 25/08/2008 16:40:22
Here's a novel idea. Rather than nerf the missions or the ships, how about CCP boost the missons?

Specifically, level 4 missions.

Have the NPC unit's DPS and DPS Tanking abilities directly linked to the pilot's relative skillpoints, and raise the bounties accordingly, so that a more skilled player gets more ISK from the kills.

If more than one pilot, take the "toughest" one. And KEEP it variable, to stop "warp in - warp out" games with different characters, so that wimp characters one can't set the room and then leave it for a uber-character to come in and sleep through.

I agree with many of the earlier posters......level 4's should be CHALLENGING. A pimped out Kronos should have just as much difficulty doing one as a newbie Dominix, and by having the NPC setups variable, this can be accomplished with relative ease.



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