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johnny zer0
Posted - 2008.08.20 20:36:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: johnny zer0 on 20/08/2008 20:58:42
ive been through the last 20 pages and havent seen this. im making a new char primarily for pvp. which race will give me the best overall options for pvp ships? i know in certain classes of ships one race might be better than another, but overall, which race has the most ships that dominate the class?

also, should i be looking for projectile or lasers for pvp? i want to start training the right skills from the beginning.

thanks.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.08.20 20:38:00 - [2]
 

TBH, right now I'd wait for the second speed nerf dev blog before deciding. Keep training learning skills until that comes out and the dust settles.

-Liang

Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.08.20 20:46:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
TBH, right now I'd wait for the second speed nerf dev blog before deciding. Keep training learning skills until that comes out and the dust settles.

-Liang


Valid advice. I'd make a cladari achura character and train those learning skills. It's pretty much the best place to start for a PVP character given the high stats in the places that matter.

I curse the fact that I have "balanced" stats - I think I have less than 1 million sp (of 23) in skills that even bother checking charisma. If I had made an achura character I'd likely have closer to 30 million sp.Embarassed

Haradgrim
Systematic Mercantilism
Posted - 2008.08.20 20:52:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
TBH, right now I'd wait for the second speed nerf dev blog before deciding. Keep training learning skills until that comes out and the dust settles.

-Liang


Actually, I'd wait till it was live on TQ for this one....Rolling Eyes

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2008.08.20 20:56:00 - [5]
 

Amarr

johnny zer0
Posted - 2008.08.20 20:57:00 - [6]
 

not what i wanted to hear, but it makes sense. thanks.

so, my second question, turrets or lasers? i like missiles more than either but they dont seem be as effective in pvp.

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:01:00 - [7]
 

well as others have already said alot depends on the great speed change of 2008

with/if speed heavily nerfed missiles will get undoubtedly a boost but ccp already said they'll adjust missiles for that, so until we know the final changes its hard to say


for long range its no contest turrets > missiles due to instadmg (btw lasers = turrets)



Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:04:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: johnny zer0
not what i wanted to hear, but it makes sense. thanks.

so, my second question, turrets or lasers? i like missiles more than either but they dont seem be as effective in pvp.


Again, this depends. As things stood on Sisi when they took things down, there was no point in not flying a missile ship. They were that awesomely broken.

-Liang

Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:05:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: johnny zer0
not what i wanted to hear, but it makes sense. thanks.

so, my second question, turrets or lasers? i like missiles more than either but they dont seem be as effective in pvp.


This point has yet to be determined. Lasers incidentally are turrets. More importantly Amarrian ships are sitting incredibly well delivering high damage with substantial protection.

I have often considered Amarr and Caldari to be almost identical in design philosophy. Both rely on ships that do specic tasks well and tend to do poorly when generalized. Both races tend to field incredibly sturdy ships with lots of firepower that sports pretty decent range. More importantly, both races seem fundamentally linked in terms of game balance - when caldari grows in power amarr seems to get better as well, but this is based off my time in the game.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:06:00 - [10]
 

Amarr.

Caldari have missiles and CCP hate Minmatar and Gallente.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:08:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 21:11:02
Ok i try to look into the crystal Ball now.

Minmatar, depends on the changes, Plated Setups like Rifter, Ruture, Cane and Phoon would still work aslo the Commands or the Mealstorm, canīt realy comment about Vaga and the Reacons, depends.

Gallente, depends on the changes, bringing Speed down is good for a close Combat race, but reducing Web power and accelation, increasing time to speed up are not that hot if you want to get in Range fast and hold your Target there. Drone Ships are more or less unaffected.

Caldari, they field some outstanding Ships in PVP but most of them are more specilized and require a Gang to work right. Mostly depends if Missles get changed and what gets changed, with the former Sissi Patch they where the most powerfull overall choice.

Amarr, well since Amarr got good Range and usaly donīt move this close they are less affected by the Web change, also get a boost because of it takes now longer to cover Range for other Ships.

In my Opinion there should be no general Right or Wrong, but choice what Race suits my gameplay at best. Gallente and Minmatar favour Small Gang/Solo, while Gallente is top Damage and Minmatar is top Speed both are very flexible. Caldari and Amarr are more Gang based ships, while Caldari got a bigger Range, more specilized Ships, Amarr can combine high Damage with serious Tanks but mostly lack a bit of flexibility and not realy dedicate Combat Range(but its ok because her own higher Range).

In the end, pick something that you like, it will get nerfed or boosted for shure so no big use to pick something by a present advantage, especialy not in front of such a big Patch.

Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:10:00 - [12]
 

Amarr are pretty straightforward in how they PvP: tank your ship and fit for lots and lots of damage. Minmatar seem to be all about speed and guerrilla tactics. I would look at it more like "what size ship do I want to fly?" instead of "what type of PvP do I want?" because the ship size is going to parallel how you will PvP. You want to fly capitals/battleships? Go Amarr. You want cruiser size ships, go Matari.

johnny zer0
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:14:00 - [13]
 

sorry, i didnt realize by speed you guys were talking about weapons.

Skylar Keenan
Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:23:00 - [14]
 

Definitely Orc... I'd suggest a Shaman or Hunter. Although an alliance defence pala is made of win... Shocked

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:32:00 - [15]
 

No need to wait until post-speed-nerf. The broken nano ships are going to be fixed, all that matters is there's no more "train Minmatar Cruiser V for god mode" problem, the rest of the relative balance will stay about the same. Your options:

1) Gallente: trash. I can't think of a single Gallente ship worth flying, besides maybe the neut Dominix. The slight damage increase over Amarr ships is negated by the complete lack of range. I guess if you really need every last point of damage for solo they might work, but you'll have few options.

2) Minmatar: mostly nerfed. They have much better slot layouts/T2 resists than Amarr, but projectiles suck. The only reason Minmatar ships have been at all useful is the ability to stack tons of broken mods/implants and play EVE in god mode. Remove the win button, and the problems of projectiles become painfully obvious: pathetic range compared to lasers, pathetic damage compared to blasters. However, there are a few good ships: the Hyena/Rapier are nice, the Broadsword is excellent, the Vagabond will be decent as a hit and run ship (though focusing more on gank than broken speed tanking), the Sleipnir is ok (though mostly because the Absolution is impossible to fit), and the Sabre is still the best interdictor. But again, not too many options.

3) Amarr: awesome, but a bit narrow. Excellent damage, insane range (pulse lasers with Scorch = short range dps/tracking with the range of long range weapons), and some nice buffer tanks. The only real weakness is the lack of options besides "OMG DPS DPS DPS", you'll always be in demand, but always in the same role.

4) Caldari: awesome, but fleet-focused. Don't expect much solo success (though a few ships can do it decently), but in fleets you have a ton of useful ships. Amarr win for damage at most ranges you'll be engaging at (thanks to the pointless 250km range cap... a Rokh SHOULD have 350km optimal), but Caldari ships have more EHP, more range options, and a lot better support options for those fleet snipers. The ECM ships are awesome, the Onyx is the best HIC, the HACs/BCs/CSs are excellent at removing enemy support and can still do a fair amount of damage to the primary, the Rokh is a solid fleet sniper (if range capped to second place behind the Apoc), the torp Raven is a terrifying small-gang dps ship... so I'd say you have a lot of options.

Boz Well
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:33:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Spaztick
Amarr are pretty straightforward in how they PvP: tank your ship and fit for lots and lots of damage. Minmatar seem to be all about speed and guerrilla tactics. I would look at it more like "what size ship do I want to fly?" instead of "what type of PvP do I want?" because the ship size is going to parallel how you will PvP. You want to fly capitals/battleships? Go Amarr. You want cruiser size ships, go Matari.


This is true for Matar atm, not so true next patch. We'll have the rupture after this nano nerf, but the vaga/muninn will be meh, rapier/huginn won't be as nice, etc. I wouldn't train Matar atm unless you're really a betting man and are betting that CCP will give Matar a reasonable buff patch in the near future. Otherwise, you're going to be pretty limited in ship choices if you want to fly a competitive ship.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:37:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Boz Well
This is true for Matar atm, not so true next patch. We'll have the rupture after this nano nerf, but the vaga/muninn will be meh, rapier/huginn won't be as nice, etc. I wouldn't train Matar atm unless you're really a betting man and are betting that CCP will give Matar a reasonable buff patch in the near future. Otherwise, you're going to be pretty limited in ship choices if you want to fly a competitive ship.


The Rapier is still going to be a good ship. Unlike the Arazu, it doesn't try to compete with the Falcon and become redundant. Speed nerf or no speed nerf, webbing a target from long range is still going to be very powerful. The only difference is now instead of webbing a broken nano ship so you can do non-zero dps to it, you'll be webbing/painting the primary so everyone in your gang does 100% damage.

Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:46:00 - [18]
 

Just go caldari - the last several patches have all boosted them, and soon they'll be the best race for both PvE and PvP.

- Best E-War
- Almost Highest damage BS weapon
- No tracking problems
- Great tanking

etc...

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:51:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin

The Rapier is still going to be a good ship. Unlike the Arazu, it doesn't try to compete with the Falcon and become redundant. Speed nerf or no speed nerf, webbing a target from long range is still going to be very powerful. The only difference is now instead of webbing a broken nano ship so you can do non-zero dps to it, you'll be webbing/painting the primary so everyone in your gang does 100% damage.


So instead the 'zu usurps the Rapier's role by virtue of the Scram changes. Thus the Arazu previously tried to compete with the Falcon and failed, and now the Rapier will try to compete with the Arazu and fail.

The ship won't have any real niche anymore. It will be all but useless (though undoubtedly cheap).

-Liang

Boz Well
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:53:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Boz Well
This is true for Matar atm, not so true next patch. We'll have the rupture after this nano nerf, but the vaga/muninn will be meh, rapier/huginn won't be as nice, etc. I wouldn't train Matar atm unless you're really a betting man and are betting that CCP will give Matar a reasonable buff patch in the near future. Otherwise, you're going to be pretty limited in ship choices if you want to fly a competitive ship.


The Rapier is still going to be a good ship. Unlike the Arazu, it doesn't try to compete with the Falcon and become redundant. Speed nerf or no speed nerf, webbing a target from long range is still going to be very powerful. The only difference is now instead of webbing a broken nano ship so you can do non-zero dps to it, you'll be webbing/painting the primary so everyone in your gang does 100% damage.


I never said it would be a terrible, useless ship. I said it won't be as good, heh, and it won't be, because they're nerfing not only its primary module, but also nerfing out of existence a lot of the ships it counters atm. And the Arazu next patch won't be as redundant, as scramblers will double as a pseudo-web.

Boz Well
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:55:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Merin Ryskin

The Rapier is still going to be a good ship. Unlike the Arazu, it doesn't try to compete with the Falcon and become redundant. Speed nerf or no speed nerf, webbing a target from long range is still going to be very powerful. The only difference is now instead of webbing a broken nano ship so you can do non-zero dps to it, you'll be webbing/painting the primary so everyone in your gang does 100% damage.


So instead the 'zu usurps the Rapier's role by virtue of the Scram changes. Thus the Arazu previously tried to compete with the Falcon and failed, and now the Rapier will try to compete with the Arazu and fail.

The ship won't have any real niche anymore. It will be all but useless (though undoubtedly cheap).

-Liang


I think long-range webs will still be useful, and it will definitely out-range the arazu's scrambler. It just won't be as nice as it is now, where double web is a pretty absurd amount of stopping power. But it certainly won't be as popular as it is now.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.08.20 21:57:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Boz Well
I think long-range webs will still be useful, and it will definitely out-range the arazu's scrambler. It just won't be as nice as it is now, where double web is a pretty absurd amount of stopping power. But it certainly won't be as popular as it is now.


They'll be useful, yes, but they aren't really going to justify bringing a recon to the fight.

-Liang

Quinten Blood
Gallente
Unseen Enterprises
Posted - 2008.08.20 22:09:00 - [23]
 

I think the best answer would be to learn about the different styles of each race and pick one you like the look of.

Don't worry about upcoming changes/nerfs - things will change all the time, even if one race looks good for pvp today they could be the worst in 6 months time.

Zappapapa
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.20 22:14:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Quinten Blood
I think the best answer would be to learn about the different styles of each race and pick one you like the look of.

Don't worry about upcoming changes/nerfs - things will change all the time, even if one race looks good for pvp today they could be the worst in 6 months time.


This.

There is no dominant race in pvp, and there very rarely is. There's enough variety within each race's ships that you can find plenty of good pvp ships to fly. Pick the race whose style you like best, not the one some misinformed forum resident tells you is best.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.08.20 22:18:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Zappapapa

This.

There is no dominant race in pvp, and there very rarely is. There's enough variety within each race's ships that you can find plenty of good pvp ships to fly. Pick the race whose style you like best, not the one some misinformed forum resident tells you is best.


The real problems come from when their overall style is destroyed (such as Gallente blaster style because of the web nerf and Minnie speed style because of the nano nerf).

-Liang

Zappapapa
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.08.20 22:26:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Zappapapa

This.

There is no dominant race in pvp, and there very rarely is. There's enough variety within each race's ships that you can find plenty of good pvp ships to fly. Pick the race whose style you like best, not the one some misinformed forum resident tells you is best.


The real problems come from when their overall style is destroyed (such as Gallente blaster style because of the web nerf and Minnie speed style because of the nano nerf).

-Liang


Gallente also have drone and ewar based ships, minmatar have other ships that don't rely completely on speed. Not to mention most of these "overall style" nerfs are highly exaggerated in their effect.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.08.20 22:29:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Zappapapa

Gallente also have drone and ewar based ships, minmatar have other ships that don't rely completely on speed. Not to mention most of these "overall style" nerfs are highly exaggerated in their effect.


Ok, so we're just nerfing blaster boats into the stone age. What if that's the style of play that you liked? Also, having been on test... no, they are not exagerated. Nano is dead, whether you were "supposedly" supposed to be a nanoship or not.

-Liang

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.08.20 22:32:00 - [28]
 

Amarr. I know I'm cross-training into Amarr.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.20 23:21:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 23:32:56
Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 23:24:04
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Amarr. I know I'm cross-training into Amarr.


Damn it, i feel like the last person, unwilling to switch. Shocked

Anyway I will drop a little comment about Gallente(since most people only say they are crap) in general and Blaster Fittings atm and on Sisis condictions again. Blaster Ships, feared by many and extrem strong back in the days are atm more or less average. With the Torp Boost and the Laser Boost the lost her edge, but can still outdo other ships close not realy by a big amount, but you take everthing what you get in a 1o1 or smale Scale Battle.

Since her her advantage is rather small today and her disadvantages are havenīt changed at all they are not realy outstanding. Ofc besides of ripping thrue the strongest active Tanks and Passive Tanks alive today(solo), where many other ships unfortunaly fail, this is simply wrong that you need the most damaging BS ingame fully Gank fitted, max skilled to "Break" a well Tanked Tier 3 BS or a HIC(we are talking about a 1400 EFT DPS Setup here). ugh

They do the job but they donīt realy give a deacend advantage. So if you like Blaster PVP stick with it, if you want somthing good, go for Lasers. With the weaker Web itīs just another nail in the coffin, that hurts Blaster Ships very hard(also close Range Minmatar Ships). Sad

Drone Ships are still a Option, the Patch donīt affect them that mutch, even boosted indirect since other close Range Weapons lost quite a bit of ther bite.

12 Month ago I started a Amarr Char(any body would have called you stupid to do it back then). I liked it from the beginning, some things where broken, but high Optimal is quite a new thing if you play 2 years long at 3-4km Combat Range. Now the Char will finish BS 5 in 5 Days and is able to fly any T1 Ship deacend and fully T2 fitted HACs. Now it is on the top, might be not any more in a year or so, so skilling for Gallente now might not be a bad Idea in the long Run, since you will have deacend Skills when the get a needet Boost.

Antodias
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2008.08.20 23:32:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Zappapapa

Gallente also have drone and ewar based ships, minmatar have other ships that don't rely completely on speed. Not to mention most of these "overall style" nerfs are highly exaggerated in their effect.


Ok, so we're just nerfing blaster boats into the stone age. What if that's the style of play that you liked? Also, having been on test... no, they are not exagerated. Nano is dead, whether you were "supposedly" supposed to be a nanoship or not.

-Liang


I've been on the test server too, and I disagree with this. Especially blasterboats, that's just completely false unless you're soloing with some of the bigger blasterboats.

Yeah things will change, but not as much as everyone is thinking, and Amarr's position of FOTM will be secured, but the fact is I don't see any race as being as "broken" as anyone percieves.


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