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blankseplocked Remind me again, why should I ever leave highsec come autumn ?
 
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.06 21:47:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Xevan Templar
So the suicide gankers have to be more selective in their targets

Actually, the suicide gankers will have to be SO selective with their targets, than only the stupidest possible idiots or the most careless swimming-in-cash ship pimpers would actually have to fear getting suicide-ganked... or probably not even them, since waiting for a worthwile target will take so much effort and pay off so infrequently that the number of suicide gankers will be reduced to a token minimum, if not dissapear for good.
If anything, it will increase the jihadswarm-like "suicide-gank for kicks" ops but suicide-ganking "for profit" will all but dissapear due to lack of interest.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.06 21:48:00 - [92]
 

There is no single good reason for you to bother moving out of high-sec.

There is no single good reason for you to take up mining, do industry, do exploration, do invention, fly Gallente ships, train for Carriers, salvage, do mission, pirate etc. etc. In fact, there is no single good reason for you to log on to EVE.

Other than fun that is. If you have fun in high-sec, by all means stay there.

EVE is compartimentalized in lots of different play experiences. There is no need for a player to be forced to participate in a particular play experience. It is even highly likely to no EVE player has or will experience all the experiences that EVE has to offer.

If you EVE experience is about gathering as much 'stuff' as possible at the lowest possible risk, there is indeed no reason to leave high-sec.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.08.06 21:49:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 06/08/2008 21:49:08
Quote:


Human nature. Doesn't matter how rewarding it is, if it's risky, there's some as won't go.

You can get rich in 0.0, but not alone, and many carebears and missioners are solo/very small group players. You're simply never going to drag them out of hisec. You might get them to leave the game.

You can lead a horse to water.


Of course not all will, but a ****load would., Not everyone who sits in hisec is deathly afraid of losing ****, they just realize that 0.0 and lowsec aren't as worth the risk as they should be. Even if they never do leave hisec, they should NOT be reaping nearly as much profit as the people who do go to lowsec/0.0.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.06 21:50:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
[stuff]
If you EVE experience is about gathering as much 'stuff' as possible at the lowest possible risk, there is indeed no reason to leave high-sec.

So, that's why most of those "hard-core PvPers" have highsec mission-running alts, eh ?

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:06:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Akita T

So, that's why most of those "hard-core PvPers" have highsec mission-running alts, eh ?



More importantly. Did I answer your question to your satisfaction?

You might as well complain that most people never do invention, exploration or drug manufacture. Some things are niche professions, and there is no more need at all for everyone to go to 0.0 or low-sec than there is need for everyone to do invention or drug manufacturing.

Atlas Oracle
Minmatar
Colossus Enterprises
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:10:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Even if they never do leave hisec, they should NOT be reaping nearly as much profit as the people who do go to lowsec/0.0.


why?

why are so many frothing about this? does it somehow diminish your game experience if player X matches your nullsec income in .5+ sec? if so, in what way does it diminish your game experience? and what is an acceptable income differential? half? quarter? what's the number?

Argenton Sayvers
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:12:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
0.0 has a much higher potential to make money than high sec ever will but you have to compete harder for it and if you're too impotent to then you're better off in high sec where the competition isn't quite as harsh.



Empty talk from a nobody.

First of all, its complete rubbish. The highest potential ISK you could make is sitting in a Forge system outside of Jita, and constantly refreshing contracts. I made 13b in less then one day by catching a Flycatcher BPO for 2b, back when 13b actually was a lot of ISK. This was in escrow days though. I heard of people catching better things for less.

Suicide ganking is another good contender, nerf or not, as people still manage to fly around 10b t2 BPOs in t1 frigates.

Its just that "jackpots" only happen to few people a few times.


Second, "potential" means nothing, what matters is realised ISK over a given timeframe (usually months as the "longterm" time unit of eve economy).

Anyone with any business sense whatsoever doesnt care about how much ISK he can make, but about how much ISK he can make in relation to expending resources. And "competing" is expending ressources. Its probably the most important resource there is out of the Trinity of Paying Attention(tm), Time and Moon Minerals.

As for competition in Highsec. Do you realise how many solo industrialists with about 300-500b there are in Highsec? Granted, market pvp is different from ship pvp. You never hear GG when you get shredded, instead of rarely.



If you have any examples of money making in 0.0, feel free to post them.
I heard about Overseers dropping X-type loot and Machariel BPC, respawning every hour (declared exploit and nerfed after about 1 year), Bob jumpbridging freighters to make 2b per day on a NPC traderoute, extremely easy exploration complexes dropping deadspace loot respawning as soon as you finish them etc.

Did you know that someone made 2b reselling Rokh(!) BPOs he hauled from Sobaseki to Jita on the day they were introduced, simply because everyone was buying in Forge so the NPC price went up, while the neighbouring regions had the normal NPC price? Someone else made about 5-7b buying BS, recycling them, and building the new tier3 BS. People made billions (back then people cared about BS losses) on buying POS, then reselling them when the price trippled after patch day.

Check market history for User Manuals in Forge. See those large volume spikes at the end of 2007? That was Akita ...

As you can see, the Eve economy goes abit deeper then the usual noclue sees. Maybe there are Rivers of ISK in 0.0 that i never heard of, simply because noone likes competition. But if your 0.0 money making potential isnt some borderline exploit but ABC or officer spawns, go seek another thread to troll before i fall from my chair laughing.


To be fair though, you have to go through Ihakana to reach Michi, and once upon a time, someone farmed himself a Mothership in good old Kenobala / Audesder. So Lowsec isnt completely useless.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:15:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Atlas Oracle


why?

why are so many frothing about this? does it somehow diminish your game experience if player X matches your nullsec income in .5+ sec? if so, in what way does it diminish your game experience? and what is an acceptable income differential? half? quarter? what's the number?


I guess that for the risk/reward people, everyone should make exactly the same amount of isk regardless of what and or where they do it. After all, if they make more isk with a certain activity, the risk/reward of that activity is obviously skewed! The rewards are too high or the risk too low. Let's fix income at a particular amount per hour, and forget all those risk/reward discussions.

I guess a nerf of trading will be next, since everyone knows that traders can make the most isk with the most safety. Most of the time you don't even have to leave the station!

Argenton Sayvers
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:16:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Atlas Oracle
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Even if they never do leave hisec, they should NOT be reaping nearly as much profit as the people who do go to lowsec/0.0.


why?

why are so many frothing about this?


When some rich industrialist uses his 2b / day afk highsec income to fund Jihadswarm to blow up everyone who posts random nonsense on forums, will there be more people who just shut up / hide behind alts, or more people who demand a nerf to highsec afk income?

mishkof
Caldari
Dirty Denizens
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:16:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Merdaneth
[stuff]
If you EVE experience is about gathering as much 'stuff' as possible at the lowest possible risk, there is indeed no reason to leave high-sec.

So, that's why most of those "hard-core PvPers" have highsec mission-running alts, eh ?



Evidence please.

Personaly if hi-sec mission running is a way for PVPers to earn ships to PVP in then I am pretty much for it. You are exagerating how much ISK is made through level 4s compared with 0.0 IMO. This is based off my own experience of course, I wont lower myself to making broad statements like yourself with absolutely no proof at all.

Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:19:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Atlas Oracle
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Even if they never do leave hisec, they should NOT be reaping nearly as much profit as the people who do go to lowsec/0.0.


why?

why are so many frothing about this? does it somehow diminish your game experience if player X matches your nullsec income in .5+ sec? if so, in what way does it diminish your game experience? and what is an acceptable income differential? half? quarter? what's the number?


isn't it just an accepted tradition within gaming of any kind that for the best rewards you have to take on the biggest challenges? off the top of my head, i can't actually think of an MMOG where you can become as rich/successful/whatever as any other player in the game without ever once having to even undock (or "leave the n00b area")

i'm all for people being able to play the game their way and i'm all for people having the right to play the game to their satisfaction without ever once PVPing or leaving Empire space, but i just as firmly believe that for the best rewards you need to take the biggest risks.


mishkof
Caldari
Dirty Denizens
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:21:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Originally by: Atlas Oracle
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Even if they never do leave hisec, they should NOT be reaping nearly as much profit as the people who do go to lowsec/0.0.


why?

why are so many frothing about this?


When some rich industrialist uses his 2b / day afk highsec income to fund Jihadswarm to blow up everyone who posts random nonsense on forums, will there be more people who just shut up / hide behind alts, or more people who demand a nerf to highsec afk income?


I would find out what he is doing and where and do one of two things.

1. Attempt to destroy it.
2. Do the exact same thing thus lowering his margins and making a crap ton of ISK myself.

This of course is what a self respecting eve player would do and would actualy take effort.


Atlas Oracle
Minmatar
Colossus Enterprises
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:22:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
When some rich industrialist uses his 2b / day afk highsec income to fund Jihadswarm to blow up everyone who posts random nonsense on forums, will there be more people who just shut up / hide behind alts, or more people who demand a nerf to highsec afk income?


appreciate the response, but i don't really get what you are saying.

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:31:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Atlas Oracle
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
When some rich industrialist uses his 2b / day afk highsec income to fund Jihadswarm to blow up everyone who posts random nonsense on forums, will there be more people who just shut up / hide behind alts, or more people who demand a nerf to highsec afk income?


appreciate the response, but i don't really get what you are saying.


What he's saying is that if you are able to make risk free isk, you are at an unfair advantage to players who can't make risk free isk. You can use this against them in many ways.

And, no, the answer isn't for everyone to get a NPC corp lvl 4 running alt. It just shows the imbalance.

Atlas Oracle
Minmatar
Colossus Enterprises
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:31:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Pesky LaRue
isn't it just an accepted tradition within gaming of any kind that for the best rewards you have to take on the biggest challenges? off the top of my head, i can't actually think of an MMOG where you can become as rich/successful/whatever as any other player in the game without ever once having to even undock (or "leave the n00b area")


you make a good point here, thanks for the cogent response.

i would tend to agree the traditional MMO model is as you suggest... in WoW, for example, "success" is mostly defined as having the best PvE and/or PvP gears.

however, Eve has a much more open model than any MMO before it. there is economic/market pvp, industrial pvp, pew pew pvp, very cool people like Chribba who likes to mine in a Veldnaught in hisec, successful research corporations, at one time there was ISS which was, for the most part, a neutral nullsec space holder... it is an open ended MMO more than any other, and within that framework the definition of "success" also becomes open ended.

these market geeks who never undock but play market economics with massive spreadsheets... they feel successful at the game without ever having to negotiate a lowsec gatecamp... and i bet a lot of them make a hell of lot more than any l4 mission runner... and the Eve sandbox makes that possible.

your point is well taken, but i'm more curious at what is really the root emotion behind the rage expresesed by many of why an l4 mission runner should make less than a nullsec devotee, and what amount lesser would cease their rage.

Argenton Sayvers
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:34:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Atlas Oracle
appreciate the response, but i don't really get what you are saying.


Thats the point, you dont get it. Everyone who posts this "leave people to their playstyle" rubbish doesnt get it. Everything you do, even running missions, is affecting someone in some way in eve. Thats the entire point of a pvp MMOG, and core of what people call the "vision" of Eve. That nothing is instanced, that nothing is happening without having an effect on people who may or may not want to be affected.

And clever people see beyond "veil" and can abuse this "web" of Interconnectivity. For example by using income from mission running to grief mission runners.



Atlas Oracle
Minmatar
Colossus Enterprises
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:35:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Originally by: Atlas Oracle
appreciate the response, but i don't really get what you are saying.


Thats the point, you dont get it.


oh, i see. ok, thanks.

OneSock
Crown Industries
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:55:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden

Of course not all will, but a ****load would., Not everyone who sits in hisec is deathly afraid of losing ****, they just realize that 0.0 and lowsec aren't as worth the risk as they should be. Even if they never do leave hisec, they should NOT be reaping nearly as much profit as the people who do go to lowsec/0.0.


This is where I kinda disagree. Fundamental problem for me is that time spent making isk (mission running/exploration/trade etc) is totally out of proportion with time spent blowing it. If I could make double the ISK in high sec I would have double the isk to blow on PVP. Correspondingly, I wouldn't like to see low sec residents making so much isk they can afford to fly pimped out T2 ships all the time.

To entice the care bears out you need to make ships more disposable (cheaper) and give them a fair chance in combat.

Argenton Sayvers
Posted - 2008.08.06 22:59:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 06/08/2008 23:02:48
Originally by: Atlas Oracle
it is an open ended MMO more than any other, and within that framework the definition of "success" also becomes open ended.


A martial arts master can beat a clueless student with his hands tied behind his back. But when he fights another master, he will be beaten senseless, as neither life nor EvE is a Hollywood movie for casual mainstream audience.

Some like taking on other people with their hands tied behind their backs to prove a point. Thats what one refers to as "Johnny" (MTG player who likes to find "clever" and unexpected combos and win with them for the effect instead of maximising win:loss ratio).

Obviously, not everything has to be equally good, so that all types of players have their place. Johnny "If you cover the moons like that, you have a fairly good chance to scan down a complex, and if its the right type, you can make billions from the ship interface!" and Timmy "if i put another Estamel BCU on my CNR, i will do 1.25% more DPS!" are paying customers as well.

That is well understood and not the point of discussion. The point of discussion is that i, and i assume every other thinking human, wants to balance a game around tradeoffs. Tradeoffs that dont involve physical pain.

And i am dead serious when i say that many are not running 100 accounts not because its not worth it, but simply because the physical pain of making hundreds of thousands of needless clicks is not worth it for a game. If Eve had a professional interface (think combining 10 accounts with 3x10 slots each into one character with 300 slots, then loading industry jobs from a .csv instead of installing everthing manually), i would be running 100 accounts.

Some people dont mind the pain, in fact, its alot more comfortable to run 20 Eve accounts mining ice then it is to work in a factory ...


Good game: Should i do Y? It might be risky, and if my opponent does X instead, he might be ahead because its slower, but steady...

Bad game: Should i do Y? Its the best thing out their, but i dont want to go through another suicide attempt out of boredom, so i try X instead.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:00:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 06/08/2008 23:01:21

Quote:

This is where I kinda disagree. Fundamental problem for me is that time spent making isk (mission running/exploration/trade etc) is totally out of proportion with time spent blowing it. If I could make double the ISK in high sec I would have double the isk to blow on PVP. Correspondingly, I wouldn't like to see low sec residents making so much isk they can afford to fly pimped out T2 ships all the time.

To entice the care bears out you need to make ships more disposable (cheaper) and give them a fair chance in combat.


excuse me? With insurance ships are already incredibly cheap. I'm not suggesting that lowsec gives a ****load of ISK, I'm suggesting that Hisec give a lot less. I'm suggesting that if you want ot make a lot of ISK, enough to get those awesome pimped out ships in a reasonable timeframe, you should have to go to lowsec/0.0 and put yourself at risk.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:04:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: mishkof
Originally by: Akita T
So, that's why most of those "hard-core PvPers" have highsec mission-running alts, eh ?

Evidence please.
Personaly if hi-sec mission running is a way for PVPers to earn ships to PVP in then I am pretty much for it. You are exagerating how much ISK is made through level 4s compared with 0.0 IMO. This is based off my own experience of course, I wont lower myself to making broad statements like yourself with absolutely no proof at all.

If you have any aquaintances that PvP on a regular basis, ask them how they make cash. You will get mixed responses between ratting/plexing/whatnot other PvE for some of those who don't have alts (not that many), and almost everybody else with alts will tell you "L4 missions in highsec" (or trading/manufacturing in highsec). So, evidence is best anecdotal, but my sample is rather large, hundreds of people. How's yours ?

You can make 15 mil ISK/hour with a T2 fit idly running L4s, not bothering with loot nor salvage and disregarding LP gains.
You can go over 25 mil ISK/hour with a decent fit, skills and implants and being attentive, looting and salvaging those types of enemies that yield decent salvage, and idly turning over your LPs.
You can get over 35 mil ISK/hour with a pimped fit while cherry-picking loot/salvage and being attentive on how you convert LPs.
You can even push over 50 mil ISK/hour per account with dual-boxing (100 mil ISK/hour total) if you gank-fit and use at least one marauder and a faction ship, or two marauders (paladin+Golem, dual golem, CNR+golem, CNR+paladin, paladin+nightmare, whatever), looting and salvaging as you go, turning in LPs at high rates only.

If you think this is an exageration, you should ask some of the more profficient mission-runners around.
I prefer to idle along at around 20 mil ISK/hour, slowly but surely solo in a Nighthawk, looting only BS wrecks in tractor beam range and turning in LPs at moderate rates - when I do it, I mostly do it for the standings not the ISK, and I'm in no particular hurry either.

Now, compare THAT possible income level with the fact you have near zero risk (especially if you are unlikely to ever get suicide-ganked starting this fall) and you're going to start getting the picture.

Angela Toren
Amarr
Toren Shipyards
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:09:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
What's wrong with it though?


The point Akita is making is risk vs reward is BROKEN in empire space.
You can make more isk high sec then lowsec as well as with little or no risk.

With the impending changes in the latest blog, most of EVE's high sec gankers will effectively be forced back into low sec. Low sec will then be an even more undesirable and pointless place to go than it ever was before.

To fix the problem is very simple;

1. Hugely boost rewards and isk for Level 4 agents and move them all to low sec systems.
2. Increase the quality and quantity of mid to high end ores in low sec
3. Increase rat bounties and quality of loot in low sec
4. Make the most profitable and highest quantity trade routes in low sec


That's all you have to do



Argenton Sayvers
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:12:00 - [113]
 

Not to mention that you can comfortably manage 2 "dual box" setups at the same time, rotate alts in gangs until all 12 characters on those 4 accounts have enough standings for RND agents (and to take good missions when you have to decline rubbish) and after a while, build and research from 120 slots each, all without any risk whatsoever.

Obviously, this is the "high capital" aproach, lots of SP, lots of ISK for deadspace golems etc ...
Whats the "high capital" aproach for 0.0? Bashing 100m per day moons with 50 dreads?

As i have mentioned elsewhere, obviously both speed and suicide ganking are a broken mess of a game mechanic. But in the CURRENT state of the game, they were a boon, and a counter to what truely breaks EvE (blobs, afk farming).

Instead of taking a look at the bigger picture and slowly but surely make things better, CCP first makes them alot worse. And judging from experience (look up my posts on contracts / Jita issue), they usually forget the "before it gets better" part ...

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:13:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Angela Toren
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
What's wrong with it though?


The point Akita is making is risk vs reward is BROKEN in empire space.
You can make more isk high sec then lowsec as well as with little or no risk.

With the impending changes in the latest blog, most of EVE's high sec gankers will effectively be forced back into low sec. Low sec will then be an even more undesirable and pointless place to go than it ever was before.

To fix the problem is very simple;

1. Hugely boost rewards and isk for Level 4 agents and move them all to low sec systems.
2. Increase the quality and quantity of mid to high end ores in low sec
3. Increase rat bounties and quality of loot in low sec
4. Make the most profitable and highest quantity trade routes in low sec


That's all you have to do




You can't just directly change **** like that, would have nasty effects on the market.

1) I wouldn't hugely boost rewards, maybe slightly overall in lowsec. I think the money's fine for a lowsec-risk environment.

2) That will just cause inflation. Nerfing mission loot would boost mineral prices overall, the best way to increase lowsec ores is to overhaul the rogue drones so that they don't drop oodles and oodles of isogen/nocxium and not much else.

3) Yes. Ratting should be better in lowsec IMO

4) This is entirely player controlled. Trading is fine as is IMO, market PVP is cuttthroat and nasty. There is risk in trading, and it requires a lot of thought and examination of markets to be good at it.

Centurion 2
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:16:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 06/08/2008 17:31:00

I'm a carebear but still hate forms of total carebearisation of EVE
Want the single most compelling reason NOT to carebear-up EVE ?
If before, people were having reservations about moving OUT of highsec and into lowsec and 0.0, now this is the big one that makes a lot of OTHER people come back to highsec.

Seriously, can ANYBODY give me a good reason why I should EVER bother getting out of highsec now ?
I seldom exited highsec before, but now it's basically pointless !

Mining ? No thanks, lowsec ore isn't worth much over Veldspar, and too much trouble bothering with 0.0... I'll just sit in a cargo-expadnded Hulk and check every 15 minutes.
Or, heck, why even bother with mining when mission loot refines so nicely into all those nice "rare" minerals ?
Heck, even morphite from the drone missions, why bother venturing out in the deep 0.0 for it ?
AND you also get cash, not just minerals.
Ratting and pirate implants ? Why bother ratting if L4 missions offer a greater target density ? Pirate implants... other than crystals, who the hell cares ? And those providing crystal implants are quite nicely settled over there, the supply is only going to keep increasing.
Play in a player corp ? Hmmm... what's the point ? solo L4 highsec missions are more than you could ever want ! And with no threat of war, and with the increased cost to get suicide-ganked, let's just pimp our ships to hell and back !

Seriously, does any of "risk and reward" or "we plan to improve lowsec and 0.0 to draw more people out there" ring a bell ?
Because right now I only hear "we're buffing up highsec so good that nobody will ever want to leave it again" !

*shakes fist* damn kids *shakes fist*




You obviously no nothing about 0.0 and what you can and can't get out of it. Once you've been in 0.0 for awhile, and stay long enough to learn whats going on, you'll never want to go back to empire.

0.0 players usually play in Empire out of necessity, not because they want to be there.

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:16:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 06/08/2008 23:25:43
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
0.0 has a much higher potential to make money than high sec ever will but you have to compete harder for it and if you're too impotent to then you're better off in high sec where the competition isn't quite as harsh.



Empty talk from a nobody.

...wall of irrelevant text...




Quoth the alt. Rest is blah, if you've got 13B off one trade why are you whining about mission runners and miners? Thanks for proving my point that its stupid easy to make money in this game. So stop complaining then. What does this have to do with suicide ganking haulers? Are you going to pass up on a T2 BPO now because you'll lose 30M on a T2 fitted brutix?

People go to 0.0/low sec because they want to fight or control space or control resources, which is not something you can do in high sec. If people aren't interested in that or are clever enough to make money without it, who cares? People make money war dec'ing mining companies too, where's the risk/reward there? Its an open ended game and these changes to insurance aren't significant enough to warrant all this whining. All this will do will be to make it financially stupid to grief some guy mining veldspar in an osprey or hauling low value skillbooks in a shuttle, its not suddenly making 0.0 worthless or make high sec a PVP free zone or any of that other nonsense.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:20:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 06/08/2008 23:23:19
Originally by: Centurion 2
0.0 players usually play in Empire out of necessity, not because they want to be there.

Cue the "oh my god, he almost got it but then he lost it" music.
THINK about what you just said.

I know more people who RETURNED from 0.0 after getting annoyed with it than people who left highsec because they were bored and stayed in 0.0 afterwards. And that includes joining decent corps/alliances out in 0.0.
I have friends and acquaintances in a LOT of 0.0 corps and alliances, and a good number of them keep empire money-making alts because SOME TIMES, it's less boring to run missions with a group than hang out in 0.0 in your alliance space.

Argenton Sayvers
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:23:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 06/08/2008 23:31:16
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
4) This is entirely player controlled. Trading is fine as is IMO, market PVP is cuttthroat and nasty. There is risk in trading, and it requires a lot of thought and examination of markets to be good at it.



He was talking about NPC trade routes like Lost Limb Roes. While i dont like NPC traderoutes per se, it might be a good idea if they are only profitable with freighters (make sure the cargo is too big for Jumpfreighters). This way, running them in protected "freighter fleets" as well as preying on those freighter fleets could actually become worthwhile.


I think eve should draw more inspiration from (idealised vision of) trade in the old days (think Marko Polo, Silk road or Spice islands) when losing 5 out of 6 ships was nothing special, but when one made it through, you made riches beyond reason...


Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

...wall of irrelevant text...




Quoth the alt. Rest is blah, if you've got 13B off one trade why are you whining about mission runners and miners? Thanks for proving my point that its stupid easy to make money in this game.


So you are too lazy (or incompetent) to look up who i am, and too lazy (or incompetent) to read what i have to say about Eve, but not to lazy (or incompetent) to post an opinion that has been proven either hot air (evidence is welcome, i like to learn) or plain wrong?


Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:30:00 - [119]
 

Anyone else think that the suicide gank change might have hugely positive side effects? The devblog made people aware of the problem with Empire, and there's a huge counterpush now to fix it.

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2008.08.06 23:31:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Anyone else think that the suicide gank change might have hugely positive side effects? The devblog made people aware of the problem with Empire, and there's a huge counterpush now to fix it.


What exactly is the problem with empire?


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