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blankseplocked CCP, Lag, and the future of the server. Words from Hammerhead.
 
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
Posted - 2008.08.02 18:44:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2008 17:19:57

Originally by: CCP Hammer
I'll see if I can get someone else to comment but no promises.


Moaaarrr hamsters!!

Thats my comment. Hope everybody is happy with it, I worked on it for quite some time.


The hamsters are outdated and far to slow. We need rats.

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2008.08.02 18:48:00 - [32]
 

I foresee one problem with passing an undocking player over to the space server.... I can see 3-6 minute delays in the undock sequence...


GateScout
Posted - 2008.08.02 19:04:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Ruze
Slow servers?
You mean, slow ISP's? Or are you saying that the servers CCP has, the ones that are the 'latest tech not even on the market yet' servers are slow?


Everything is "slow" when you're looking at O(n^2) or, perhaps best case, O(n log(n)).

Very Happy

Doc Fury
Caldari
Posted - 2008.08.02 19:15:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Neth'Rae
Originally by: Doc Fury
So... approximately how many lines of code have you guys "done on the software side" so far? In other words, how much EVE server code has already been rewritten for Infiniband?

I'm guessing this stuff is all still up on whiteboards and exists only in the realm of "possibilities" so far.



Your guessing doesn't help us a bit, go whine somewhere else or fly over to iceland and show them how to code their software..


CCP could not afford me. Wink

I give you 4/10 for a troll attempt though.


Neth'Rae
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.08.02 19:23:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Doc Fury
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Originally by: Doc Fury
So... approximately how many lines of code have you guys "done on the software side" so far? In other words, how much EVE server code has already been rewritten for Infiniband?

I'm guessing this stuff is all still up on whiteboards and exists only in the realm of "possibilities" so far.



Your guessing doesn't help us a bit, go whine somewhere else or fly over to iceland and show them how to code their software..


CCP could not afford me. Wink

I give you 4/10 for a troll attempt though.




Oh so now I'm the troll?
gb2wowforums...

Doc Fury
Caldari
Posted - 2008.08.02 19:27:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Neth'Rae
Originally by: Doc Fury
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Originally by: Doc Fury
So... approximately how many lines of code have you guys "done on the software side" so far? In other words, how much EVE server code has already been rewritten for Infiniband?

I'm guessing this stuff is all still up on whiteboards and exists only in the realm of "possibilities" so far.



Your guessing doesn't help us a bit, go whine somewhere else or fly over to iceland and show them how to code their software..


CCP could not afford me. Wink

I give you 4/10 for a troll attempt though.




gb2wowforums...


LOL, I'd be happy to try that, but I've never had an account there, so can I use yours?


Complete Tart
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2008.08.02 19:38:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Neth'Rae
gb2wowforums...

Says the guy who wants to add wow-like Achievements to Eve ugh

Neth'Rae
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.08.02 19:58:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Complete Tart
Originally by: Neth'Rae
gb2wowforums...

Says the guy who wants to add wow-like Achievements to Eve ugh



I was only serious.. Embarassed

Orogaldeo
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.02 20:00:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Dantes Revenge
The hamsters are outdated and far to slow. We need rats.


and then, we'll see hamsters in asteroid belts and missions...

Kaynard Stormwalker
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.08.02 20:50:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Ruze
Or are you saying that the servers CCP has, the ones that are the 'latest tech not even on the market yet' servers are slow?

I will promise you, CCP hasn't got the latest technology on the market.

They haven't even got a real supercomputer yet. Their blade racks(They use IBM blades with Operton cores) are connected with high-end gigabit ethernet, which is slow in terms of super-computing, if not laughable. Razz

The only "cool" thing they have, is their RAMDisk's. Those are some huge pieces of hardware with tons of RAM Shocked


Rofl, gigabit?
That can't be right, they should have everything connected with fiber and switches connected via that ultra-fast-port-which-I-forgot-the-name.

Anyway, lastest hardware is expensive as hell...It's obvious they don't have it yet hehe

ImUrDestiny
Epic Catalyst Corp
Posted - 2008.08.02 20:58:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Benilopax
also thanks to CCP for coming to the meet and giving some free stuff to us.

They are giving out free T2 BPO's again??? Shocked

didn't they learn anything from last time, i mean sjeez!!!

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:01:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: ImUrDestiny
Originally by: Benilopax
also thanks to CCP for coming to the meet and giving some free stuff to us.

They are giving out free T2 BPO's again??? Shocked

didn't they learn anything from last time, i mean sjeez!!!


Bad joke. Really baaaa-aaad joke ...

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:06:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 02/08/2008 21:12:16
After all this time, I'm sure that when CCP gets away from their current single core server design to a true clustered multi server multi core design, that EVE will rock EVEn more.

I'm not a total fan boy BTW, I have had more than a few losses to LAG and node crashes, but after 5 years, I can be sure of 1 thing, we as players, won't find a more dedicated team of developers that really know what is getting on our **** (breasts?).

So CCP, get your InfiniBand working, the Sol-Servers multi core enabled, dynamic balancing working and make EVE lag a thing of the past.

I know, I for one, am looking forward to the updated server code, more kills with less lag YARR YARRRR!!

Alpha Prime
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:08:00 - [44]
 


Jaabaa Prime!. miss u, old man.

/Hail CA


Layla McScout
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:45:00 - [45]
 

It doesn't matter how much hardware you toss at a ****ty code. It will remain a ****ty code, aka Python. Perharps calling Monty might remedy the situation a bit.

bloomich
Caldari
In Siders
Posted - 2008.08.02 22:52:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Layla McScout
It doesn't matter how much hardware you toss at a ****ty code. It will remain a ****ty code, aka Python. Perharps calling Monty might remedy the situation a bit.


Sorry, too many armchair technical specilists around. You could go back and say "program in assembly" for more performance. Then Program in binary etc etc. You have fallen in teh trap of talking about a certain make of sparkplugs being better than another when all the customer wants is a car to drop the kids at school with.

Bottom line, the issue that matters to most eve players is not what language they use or even what server hardward they use. What matters is how long it will take before a solution is acheived to reduce or remove lag?

Mogren
SniggWaffe
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.08.02 23:06:00 - [47]
 

Thanks for the update beni \o/

Yaris San
Posted - 2008.08.02 23:19:00 - [48]
 

As a new player to Eve I'm amazed by a few things.

1. The ability to check the market while in space.
2. The lack of an auto logout timer for long periods of afk.

It seems that tweaking these 2 points could greatly reduce lag. For example, you need level 5 trading to check the market while not docked and 15 minutes of afk gets you logged off.

I personally thing a lot of people are browsing the market while jumping and that has to cause a lot of server issues.

McDonALTs
Posted - 2008.08.02 23:25:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: McDonALTs on 02/08/2008 23:25:31
Originally by: Yaris San
As a new player to Eve I'm amazed by a few things.

1. The ability to check the market while in space.
2. The lack of an auto logout timer for long periods of afk.

It seems that tweaking these 2 points could greatly reduce lag. For example, you need level 5 trading to check the market while not docked and 15 minutes of afk gets you logged off.

I personally thing a lot of people are browsing the market while jumping and that has to cause a lot of server issues.


While I am sure that will help, the real issues is caused when people fight. E.G 100 v 100 and everyone gets lagged to hell. Or even 20 v 20 and you have 2 minutes module lag, 10 mins lag or even no lag at all.

Once you see your ship loosing health and you cannot warp out because you ship is already dead, then you relise how bad lag is. Basically each system is sharing with a node. If you have a battle on a empty server(node) then its lower lag. If you have a battle on a node shared with jita, then even 3v3 will get you lagged out. If you go into 0.0 blob wars where its 600 v 600, then you can have upto a hours worth of lag. Seriously, you press your gun and a 30mins to an hour later it updates (unless the server crashes)

Its going to get worse as more players come to eve and as more people migrate to 0.0/FW

Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.08.02 23:26:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
I'd love it if we could just plug the stuff in and see massive performance gains but that's not how it works.
Get one of your technical people to get you a 6Ghz Power 6 workstation and re-compile some of your services on it, I'm pretty sure you would see an improvement on your current services performance even before adding infiniband and splitting the sol services up.

The do slightly slower blades that are probably compatible with your existing racks too...

Finally, as Brighton was mentioned, will any of you going to remix uk 08 on 18-19th September?

CRUSH BOSS
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.03 08:46:00 - [51]
 

:Repeat you last, over: -> "I say again, there is NO lag in eve"

:CCP -out-:

Akiama
Gallente
Shugotenshi Genkuro
Posted - 2008.08.03 11:42:00 - [52]
 

The only way to fix fleet warfare is to completely revamp the POS/Sov model as it stands right now.

1. Remove local.
2. Add in deployable/destroyable surveillance networks that can find cloakers.
3. Add additional warp in points from stargates so that all traffic isn't congested in one spot.
4. Create multi-system objectives that must be completed near simultaneously to reduce Sovereignty.

Joakim Wasyl
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.08.03 13:00:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Layla McScout
It doesn't matter how much hardware you toss at a ****ty code. It will remain a ****ty code, aka Python. Perharps calling Monty might remedy the situation a bit.


Bit unfair, the code was designed / written 5 years ago when things were very different.

Given a clean sheet and know knowing the problem you can come up with a design that will scale nicely over multiple cores, processors etc and it's not particularly difficult.

CCP's problem though is how to move from what they have know, to any super new design without breaking everything. Any Software guys here will know this is far more difficult than simply starting from scratch.

Mire Stoude
The Undesirables
Posted - 2008.08.03 13:59:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Joakim Wasyl
Originally by: Layla McScout
It doesn't matter how much hardware you toss at a ****ty code. It will remain a ****ty code, aka Python. Perharps calling Monty might remedy the situation a bit.


Bit unfair, the code was designed / written 5 years ago when things were very different.

Given a clean sheet and know knowing the problem you can come up with a design that will scale nicely over multiple cores, processors etc and it's not particularly difficult.

CCP's problem though is how to move from what they have know, to any super new design without breaking everything. Any Software guys here will know this is far more difficult than simply starting from scratch.


That leaves one answer then... Shut down the game for 6 months and release Eve 2: The Search for More Hampsters

August Guns
Minmatar
Generic Technologies and Futures Organization
Posted - 2008.08.03 15:12:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
1. CCP fixs lag for 600-1000 man in local.
2. Players start complaining about lag with 1000-2000 in local.


I think it wouldn't be the local count that mattered anymore; it'd be the number of people on the same grid or station as you.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.08.03 15:43:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Benilopax
So don't think that anyone who could fix bugs are being wasted on Ambulation it just isn't possible first because theose working on ambulation do not know how to bug fix and second each department concentrates on its own project.

There is an easy solution to this....

Fire Ambulation department. Hire bug-hunters/game-developers!

There! Problem solved!

Not saying it SHOULD be done, but the 'excuse' that the resources spent on ambulation could not be used on more pressing issues is not based on reality!
Instead of hiding behind this 'excuse', CCP should just say "These are our priorities. This is how its going to be!"....


Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.03 15:50:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Benilopax
So don't think that anyone who could fix bugs are being wasted on Ambulation it just isn't possible first because theose working on ambulation do not know how to bug fix and second each department concentrates on its own project.

There is an easy solution to this....

Fire Ambulation department. Hire bug-hunters/game-developers!

There! Problem solved!

Not saying it SHOULD be done, but the 'excuse' that the resources spent on ambulation could not be used on more pressing issues is not based on reality!
Instead of hiding behind this 'excuse', CCP should just say "These are our priorities. This is how its going to be!"....




But they have. The fact that players aren't HAPPY with that decision is what this post is about. Me, personally? I'm happy that CCP hasn't dug itself into the same rut other mmo's have. EvE is expanding on multiple fronts. It's code is being overhauled. It's technology is being updated. And the concept and premise of the entire game is expanding, with introducing Ambulation, more PvE content, FW, etc, etc.

Some compare EvE's changes to SWG, but they are missing some crucial data: CCP isn't taking away from EvE, they are adding to. SWG took away the internal structure of the game and made a new game entirely. CCP is just adding more. More areas to play, more adventures for those who choose to play differently, and more reasons for new players to join.

Just because we think we know better, doesn't mean CCP should go changing their ways just to fill our bill. Thank GOD for that. Else EVERY stupid know-it-all and forumwh*re would be able to dictate a companies actions.

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.03 16:11:00 - [58]
 

For the last 2 years the lag problem makes me a sad panda only by having the same things happen over and over.
-Not so big battle (like 30vs30) happens in a system that doesn't normaly get any action and is connected to a random, fairly loaded node... we all go wtf? We can't do even that nowadays?
-Big-ish battle happens to a core (or not) system of a certain alliance.... things go caboom, players get frustrated, server's load distrubution routine thingy takes too long (days) to "decide" it should put more juice in that system and by the time it does, there are 800ppl there making it impossible to make a difference.

Am I doing this right?

So Hammer... dynamic load balancing... when? Very Happy

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2008.08.03 17:52:00 - [59]
 

The hamsters want Nehalem cores aswell with trichannel memory! YARRRR!! That would yield a high brute force part.ugh

bloomich
Caldari
In Siders
Posted - 2008.08.03 18:40:00 - [60]
 

With Ambulation, the second life crowd will come to eve and also a lot of people who gave up eve because they could not have much feelings for a bit of metal.

Back to point, with greater numbers, a plan must eb in place to handle epic battles, because todays carebears are tommorows 0.0/fw pvpers as people migrate ever day.

600v600 battles are not impossible. Its more a case of how long we have to wait before they become a reality. Is this reality going to be 5 years away? 5 months away? 50 years away?


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