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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:41:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 28/07/2008 18:58:10
The dev blog said (or implied) that it was only the highest speeds that were seen as a problem, that one of the reasons for the changes was that heavy assault ships were going faster than interceptors (nevermind that this actually isn't true, unless you're comparing a speed fit Vagabond with an armor tanked Taranis or a super pimped out Vagabond with a tech 2 fitted interceptor), and that it is the speeds with a lot of modifiers added on over each other that are a problem and not the regular cheap tech 2 speed fits without gang bonuses. This would indicate that speeds of a tech 2 speed fit interceptor were not seen as problematic and were only meant to be reduced slightly.

However, the interceptors seem as hard hit as anything, and without having a much bigger speed advantage over the heavy assaults than they used to. A pimped out Vagabond with loads of bonuses will still outrun a regular tech 2 fit interceptor just like it does right now on Tranquility. If we're to believe that interceptors right now on Tranquility aren't worth flying, then they will be a lot less worth it after this.

The fastest of the interceptors, with all the lows used for speed, will now be in the 5 - 5.5 km/s range (with just tech 2). My artillery Wolf, without tracking mods (and the Wolf has no bonuses to tracking), can hit an interceptor going at that speed, orbiting at normal orbit range, with good damage. that's without trying to maneuve to reduce transversal. I don't think that's quite as it should be.

If the 7+ km/s speeds on the faster interceptors were such a problem that you had to take more than 2 km/s off of them, then you need to take the people responsible for the last 'nano-nerf' (last year) and fire them. Because it should have been plainly obvious that the 4 fastest interceptors were going to be able to go at those speeds without any real ISK investment at all going into them.

Ghostwarden
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:01:00 - [2]
 

They also implied that they are going to reduce the effect of Webbers and that they are going to be listening to the feeback from the Players testing the proposed changes. They are even going to conduct that testing over a longer period of time to really test the changes.

So get on the test server, and really LOOK at the effect of the changes and before you make judgements.

Ghost

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:06:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Ghostwarden
They also implied that they are going to reduce the effect of Webbers and that they are going to be listening to the feeback from the Players testing the proposed changes. They are even going to conduct that testing over a longer period of time to really test the changes.

So get on the test server, and really LOOK at the effect of the changes and before you make judgements.

Ghost


The effect of webs has been reduced allready on the test server. That is helpful to an extent, but more so for the close range, fighting interceptors.

Leon 026
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:03:00 - [4]
 

My main issue is that an inty pilot with T1 MWD and HSM 2 will perform exactly the same as an inty pilot with T2 MWD and HSM 5. I fear that there's no need to train HSM to any decent length, and really the cap difference between a T1 MWD and T2 MWD is very negligeable when you have so much capacitor on your interceptor you dont know what to do with it.

I dont see the "edge" in having T2 and better skills, which doesnt make much sense....

Aria Seniste
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:16:00 - [5]
 

Reem: The wolf is an assault frigate.

Small guns can now hit small ships? Who knew. (Hint: I can already hit intys orbiting me with small artillery.)

If the small guns are now consistant, this marks another role for the assault ship. When the interceptors start getting damaged by medium or larger weapons consistantly, then we'll have a problem. Until then... this is no different than HACs avoiding cruiser weapons. Should never have happened. Now interceptors won't be the only worthwhile tech2 frigate (Aside from stealth bombers / covops, which are really in a class all their own).

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:29:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Malachon Draco on 28/07/2008 18:28:50
Originally by: Aria Seniste
Reem: The wolf is an assault frigate.

Small guns can now hit small ships? Who knew. (Hint: I can already hit intys orbiting me with small artillery.)

If the small guns are now consistant, this marks another role for the assault ship. When the interceptors start getting damaged by medium or larger weapons consistantly, then we'll have a problem. Until then... this is no different than HACs avoiding cruiser weapons. Should never have happened. Now interceptors won't be the only worthwhile tech2 frigate (Aside from stealth bombers / covops, which are really in a class all their own).


If a wolf can hit frigs with artillery, that means medium pulse guns can too. And those will hurt.

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:34:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Aria Seniste
Reem: The wolf is an assault frigate.


An assault ship without a tracking bonus, and without a single tracking mod fitted, against the 3 fastest interceptors with a complete speed fit in their low slots.

Vision Threads
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:40:00 - [8]
 

I can hit speed-fit tackling ares in my T2 drake now. I pop them while they're MWDing toward me in about 15 missile hits. My raven can also hit them okay with cruise, but not fast enough to outdamage a rep. And now ceptors have the cap to run reps b/c MWDs come with a smaller cap penalty.

And of course my warrior IIs dominate tackling ceptors just as they should once they get into orbit. T1 frigate gets beat by T1 drones, and a T2 frigate should get beat by T2 drones.

I think this is a good change. The interceptor's real role has always been to tackle BS+ sized enemy ships in fleet combat (or in the case of 'heavy' ceptors like the ranis, to kill other ceptors as anti-support). That's why CCP gave them the long scram range bonus -- to out-range heavy neuts.

I'm glad to see that interceptors won't just become the new "I win" class of speed-tanking ships. And I'll definitely feel a lot safer when ratting.

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:50:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Vision Threads
speed-fit tackling ares


Quote:
a rep


I beg your pardon?

z0de
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2008.07.28 18:57:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Vision Threads
I can hit speed-fit tackling ares in my T2 drake now. I pop them while they're MWDing toward me in about 15 missile hits.
I doubt this. how fast was that Ares going, they wouldn't do damage to one going 7km/s+ hit or not.

Leon 026
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.07.28 19:17:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Leon 026 on 28/07/2008 19:21:49
Well, with the massive amount of cap on inties, I forsee a surge in near perma active-tanked interceptors (which is quite the oxymoron).

Imo, this will need changing, because really, there's no more need to have AFs.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.07.28 20:10:00 - [12]
 

Wait, they still go over 5,000m/s what is the issue here again? I'm honestly missing it.

Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Posted - 2008.07.28 20:17:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Wait, they still go over 5,000m/s what is the issue here again? I'm honestly missing it.


you obviously dont fly interceptors or you would realize how big of a change that is, a ceptor doing 5km/s is a death warrent.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.07.28 20:36:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Straight Chillen
Originally by: MotherMoon
Wait, they still go over 5,000m/s what is the issue here again? I'm honestly missing it.


you obviously dont fly interceptors or you would realize how big of a change that is, a ceptor doing 5km/s is a death warrent.


not very offen no, however I think you meant to say WAS a death warrant, on TQ. With everything goes half the speed of your interceptor I can't see the issue will get on sisi soon and fly around in one.

Vision Threads
Posted - 2008.07.28 20:47:00 - [15]
 

Missiles don't go half the speed of your interceptor. :) My missile velocity and explosion velocity are unchanged.

But it's not a death warrant. Ceptors still have great agility and can warp off after I hit them with the first salvo from my HMLs, unless they panic.

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.07.28 20:52:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Wait, they still go over 5,000m/s what is the issue here again? I'm honestly missing it.


That, first of all, it's a about a third of their speed gone, even though they were supposedly not seen as being a part of the speed problem (were even supposed to be helped by the changes). But more importantly, I'd say it's because a tackling Ares, with all its lows used for speed, doing only 5 km/s something is seriously failtastic. Hell, even a Raptor can do 6 km/s with nothing but tech 2 speed mods, on Tranquility right now, and a lot of people don't think it's worth flying.

True, a lot of other things will be slower, but tracking, missile explosion velocity, and warrior IIs won't be.

Leon 026
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:00:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Wait, they still go over 5,000m/s what is the issue here again? I'm honestly missing it.


5,000m/s top speed isnt the same as 5,000m/s combat speed. In reality you're looking at about 2.5-4k/s combat speed.

From the testing I've done so far with a well-experience 'sader pilot, the Crow unless plated like the old '05 version, is going to be everyone's favorite snack.

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:10:00 - [18]
 

I seriously recommend you people get on test and try this stuff out before talking about it. I've been playing with a crow on test and you can easily hit 5k (not sure where the OP comes up with they can only go about 5k... I busted 5k without even trying)... I'm playing with the changed mods to find the best setup before posting what their actual top T2 fit speed is but it looks like you can get them well over 6k without too much trouble. (Remember: They changed the mods a bit, need to play with them to find the best balance for a non-rigged T2 ship it may not be 2OD and 1Nano anymore) T2 fit inties w/o faction MWD's never broke much faster than 7k on Tranquility (I should know, I fly a crow sometimes myself). It's only with polycarbs and Gist-B mwd's that they hit 10.2k/s without implants, etc.

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:10:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Straight Chillen
Originally by: MotherMoon
Wait, they still go over 5,000m/s what is the issue here again? I'm honestly missing it.


you obviously dont fly interceptors or you would realize how big of a change that is, a ceptor doing 5km/s is a death warrent.


not very offen no, however I think you meant to say WAS a death warrant, on TQ. With everything goes half the speed of your interceptor I can't see the issue will get on sisi soon and fly around in one.


A Claw with Navigation 5 and Acceleration Control 4, a tech 2 mwd, 3 tech 2 overdrives and a tech 2 nanofiber will do about 7.4 km/s right now on Tranquility. With Acceleration Control at 5 it's about 7.7 km/s. Crusader is about the same (minus a tiny few m/s), and the Ares is just a few hundred m/s below.

Not even the Vagabond is close to being that fast. Yes, a pimped out Vagabond can be faster, but a pimped out interceptor is even faster than that.

And that Vagabond with snakes and gang bonuses will still be faster than the tech 2 speed fit interceptor with the coming changes.

Thorradin
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:20:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Leon 026
Edited by: Leon 026 on 28/07/2008 19:21:49
Well, with the massive amount of cap on inties, I forsee a surge in near perma active-tanked interceptors (which is quite the oxymoron).

Imo, this will need changing, because really, there's no more need to have AFs.


Ishkur, Hawk and Harpy are likely to still be pretty damn mean to close orbitting inties, especially the ishkur with its drones that will run the inty down and slaughter it unless it has a gist a-type small SB maybe...

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:36:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 28/07/2008 21:37:07
Originally by: Taram Caldar
I seriously recommend you people get on test and try this stuff out before talking about it. I've been playing with a crow on test and you can easily hit 5k (not sure where the OP comes up with they can only go about 5k... I busted 5k without even trying)... I'm playing with the changed mods to find the best setup before posting what their actual top T2 fit speed is but it looks like you can get them well over 6k without too much trouble. (Remember: They changed the mods a bit, need to play with them to find the best balance for a non-rigged T2 ship it may not be 2OD and 1Nano anymore) T2 fit inties w/o faction MWD's never broke much faster than 7k on Tranquility (I should know, I fly a crow sometimes myself). It's only with polycarbs and Gist-B mwd's that they hit 10.2k/s without implants, etc.



The Crow is one of the slower interceptors (5th place among the 8), so no surprise that you weren't doing 7 km/s. And if you can get any interceptor above 5.5 km/s on the test server right now then you have implants, gang bonuses, overloading, boosters or something of that kind helping you.

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2008.07.28 21:39:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Taram Caldar on 28/07/2008 21:47:42
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 28/07/2008 21:41:32
Originally by: Taram Caldar
I seriously recommend you people get on test and try this stuff out before talking about it. I've been playing with a crow on test and you can easily hit 5k (not sure where the OP comes up with they can only go about 5k... I busted 5k without even trying)... I'm playing with the changed mods to find the best setup before posting what their actual top T2 fit speed is but it looks like you can get them well over 6k without too much trouble. (Remember: They changed the mods a bit, need to play with them to find the best balance for a non-rigged T2 ship it may not be 2OD and 1Nano anymore) T2 fit inties w/o faction MWD's never broke much faster than 7k on Tranquility (I should know, I fly a crow sometimes myself). It's only with polycarbs and Gist-B mwd's that they hit 10.2k/s without implants, etc.




Played with setups a bit. Looks like if you want SPEED you should only bother with OD's and Aux Thrusters now. Nanos increase your acceleration and speed but not as much to speed as your overdrives do. Same for polycarbs except they increase speed *slightly* as well as *agility*

So for a full speed fit inty you fit overdrives and aux thrusters (at least till the stacking nerf takes the overdrives down to nothing. The kicker is that ALL the mods now stacking nerf each other since they all (except istabs) have the same bonus "Velocity". So it's best to go with all overdrives and thrusters if you want maximum speed. I was able to hit 5112m/s this way and I'm by no means maxed out on skills having only interceptor 4, Accel control 4 and HSM 4... so I suspect you could hit about 5.3k/sec in a crow fitted with 3 Overdrives and 2 Aux Thrusters... post patch. That's with a T2 MWD... I don't have a Gist B to test with on Sisi but am hopeful that you could break 6k/sec with one.

Fastest setup I came up with for the crow:
3x OD2 in the lows: 4998m/s with my skills. Accel 5, and HSM5 should be able to break 5k

3x OD2 & 2x Aux Thruster: 5112m/s with my skills.

I don't have a gang to test with at the moment but with good gang skills it should do over 6k/sec w/o implants or a Gist MWD... ***Correction*** Just re-looked at gang skills and skirmish no longer gives any velocity bonus at all but rather agility... forgot about that bit.

Having finished my preliminary testing, I'd have to agree that the changes are hitting interceptors too hard. The incredible stacking penalties now (since EVERYTHING is a velocity bonus) on top of the halving of all the modules bonuses on top of the nuking of gang bonuses combine to severely limit the interceptor class ships.

While I completely agree with the devs that speed in general needed to be tuned downwards the evidence on test server just from a few minutes of flying around points pretty clearly to the fact that this is way too much of a nerf.

Aria Seniste
Posted - 2008.07.29 00:51:00 - [23]
 

After playing with it for a bit, I've changed my mind. Intys are hit far too hard. The distinction has shrunk, as well: A claw is not much faster than a crow now. Without it's speed, why would anyone fly a claw? Low targeting range (it cant even use a 24k point because it can't target past 20k), less DPS than a crow, and now similar speeds?

Minmatar interceptors have been thoroughly nuked. I cannot speak for other races as I cannot fly their interceptors. But now, the variety is minimal, and the speeds are terrible.

People may say they easily get over 5k, but they're forgetting the free snakes on Sisi. The snakes very few of them will be using on TQ.

KingCappo
Seigers of Doom
Posted - 2008.07.29 01:02:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Taram Caldar
I was able to hit 5112m/s this way and I'm by no means maxed out on skills having only interceptor 4, Accel control 4 and HSM 4... so I suspect you could hit about 5.3k/sec in a crow fitted with 3 Overdrives and 2 Aux Thrusters... post patch. That's with a T2 MWD... I don't have a Gist B to test with on Sisi but am hopeful that you could break 6k/sec with one.


You will go the same speed with a faction mwd as t2, since they all have the same speed boost on sisi.

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.07.29 01:34:00 - [25]
 

The problem is not their top speed. The agility took too massive a hit. In any real skirmish conditions, you are talking 2.5k - 4K realistically, once you take maneuvering into effect. And that's a death warrant against drones & missiles. Even fully pimped / snaked / t2 rigged, an interceptor dies too easily to cruiser weapons. A BS will now have enough time to lock AND insta pop a ceptor that's trying to get away, no matter what it does to increase it's transversal.

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2008.07.29 03:54:00 - [26]
 

my malediction got a rather nice boost, i think.

I fit it like so:

3x rocket II's, faction rockets

1mn mwd II
1mn ab II
warp scram II (10k range, shuts off mwd... lol pwn)

2x nanofiber
1x ballistic control

It fits rather well, it goes like 4.4km/s with my skills, and 1.7 km/s with the ab...

Lets me speedtank just about every turret ship.

As well, my new sacri...

5x HAML (arby, t2, it all works)
a nos if you can (in case they neut you lol)

10mn mwd (t2 or no lol)
10mn AB II
warp scram II
stasis web II

MAR II
thermic hard
EANM
DC
BCU

Whatever rigs ( i went with 2x Ccc on sisi, but whatever you want really. I did this mostly because of the no cap mods >.> ) It runs stable with mwd, or ab/rep...
Speed tank at about 6-7km, going 600m/s. I was circling an abso with pulses i think for the longest time, till a myrm webbed and killed me :\
Its rather amazing what you can tank with AB's.

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2008.07.29 04:10:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Taram Caldar on 29/07/2008 04:10:19
Originally by: Lance Fighter
my malediction got a rather nice boost, i think.

I fit it like so:

3x rocket II's, faction rockets

1mn mwd II
1mn ab II
warp scram II (10k range, shuts off mwd... lol pwn)

2x nanofiber
1x ballistic control

It fits rather well, it goes like 4.4km/s with my skills, and 1.7 km/s with the ab...

Lets me speedtank just about every turret ship.

As well, my new sacri...

5x HAML (arby, t2, it all works)
a nos if you can (in case they neut you lol)

10mn mwd (t2 or no lol)
10mn AB II
warp scram II
stasis web II

MAR II
thermic hard
EANM
DC
BCU

Whatever rigs ( i went with 2x Ccc on sisi, but whatever you want really. I did this mostly because of the no cap mods >.> ) It runs stable with mwd, or ab/rep...
Speed tank at about 6-7km, going 600m/s. I was circling an abso with pulses i think for the longest time, till a myrm webbed and killed me :\
Its rather amazing what you can tank with AB's.


And in both cases any missile boat will blow you up in seconds. Or anyone bright enough to have a webber fitted.

LetsDoThis
Posted - 2008.07.29 04:35:00 - [28]
 

I sense a nerf to how explosion velocity works inc.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.07.29 04:40:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 28/07/2008 18:58:10
The dev blog said (or implied) that it was only the highest speeds that were seen as a problem, that one of the reasons for the changes was that heavy assault ships were going faster than interceptors (nevermind that this actually isn't true, unless you're comparing a speed fit Vagabond with an armor tanked Taranis or a super pimped out Vagabond with a tech 2 fitted interceptor), and that it is the speeds with a lot of modifiers added on over each other that are a problem and not the regular cheap tech 2 speed fits without gang bonuses. This would indicate that speeds of a tech 2 speed fit interceptor were not seen as problematic and were only meant to be reduced slightly.

However, the interceptors seem as hard hit as anything, and without having a much bigger speed advantage over the heavy assaults than they used to. A pimped out Vagabond with loads of bonuses will still outrun a regular tech 2 fit interceptor just like it does right now on Tranquility. If we're to believe that interceptors right now on Tranquility aren't worth flying, then they will be a lot less worth it after this.

The fastest of the interceptors, with all the lows used for speed, will now be in the 5 - 5.5 km/s range (with just tech 2). My artillery Wolf, without tracking mods (and the Wolf has no bonuses to tracking), can hit an interceptor going at that speed, orbiting at normal orbit range, with good damage. that's without trying to maneuve to reduce transversal. I don't think that's quite as it should be.

If the 7+ km/s speeds on the faster interceptors were such a problem that you had to take more than 2 km/s off of them, then you need to take the people responsible for the last 'nano-nerf' (last year) and fire them. Because it should have been plainly obvious that the 4 fastest interceptors were going to be able to go at those speeds without any real ISK investment at all going into them.


I've been using my Crusader and Malediction to great effect on the test server. I don't know what issues you've been having. Must be operator error.

Feyona
Time Bandits.
Posted - 2008.07.29 07:05:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Feyona on 29/07/2008 07:05:41
It seems to me like they are from what I've seen and what I'm hearing, which saddens me a lot, considering that most people never seemed to feel inties were unbalanced. I fly a Stiletto usually and it looks like my orbit speed has been cut down to about 3800m/s or so against a static target... Although my nav skills are almost 2 months out of date on the test server? (Thanks, ccp...) Which is not fast enough to get away from light drones/heavy missiles, the latter which you will die to almost instantly.

I've got no problems with light guns oblitering ceptors, because nobody is going to fit them on anything but another frigate (fair?) but practically any ship can field 5 light drones, which means ships like Drakes are now crossing over into territory that should belong to Destroyers. In addition to their cruiser sized weapons being able to hit frig sized targets.


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