open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Isk Sellers
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3]

Author Topic

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2008.07.27 02:14:00 - [61]
 

Sad thing about eve is that there are no instances yet but well have to see what the deve come up with to combat the endless tide of digital data bits.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2008.07.27 15:19:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: CCP RyanD
Originally by: astowv
solution:

NO GOD DAMN FREE TRIALS


We're moving in that direction but we're not going to go all the way to zero. Over the next several months we're going to be changing the trial system a lot. What we really want to do is see the Buddy Program become the prime way that people come into EVE - that way they come with at least some connection to another player and all the help & resources that implies. Free trials via simple web signup will not go away but we are going to change that program to make it a "taste of EVE" and not a way to play the game with virtually unlimited access for 2 weeks.

RyanD


So good to hear this! I think the changes you've mentioned would make a huge difference. Can't wait to see what more is up CCP's sleeve on this issue.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2008.07.27 15:30:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: CCP RyanD
Originally by: astowv
solution:

NO GOD DAMN FREE TRIALS


We're moving in that direction but we're not going to go all the way to zero. Over the next several months we're going to be changing the trial system a lot. What we really want to do is see the Buddy Program become the prime way that people come into EVE - that way they come with at least some connection to another player and all the help & resources that implies. Free trials via simple web signup will not go away but we are going to change that program to make it a "taste of EVE" and not a way to play the game with virtually unlimited access for 2 weeks.

RyanD


Excellent news.

Question, I have a friend I invited as a buddy a few months ago. He's decided he wants a second go at the game now that FW is in. Can I offer the same person a second buddy trial?

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2008.07.27 16:52:00 - [64]
 

Make trial invite issuers accountable for the trialer's actions. If ISK spam is involved , flag him to disable new trial invites , mark his other trial accounts for deletion and have a GM personally investigate his activities. Also remove the option to upgrade trial to regular sub with a GTC and not pay anything.

Real players inviting their friends to Eve would have nothing to fear. No loss of customers , unless you consider ISK farmers to be customers of course.

Layla McScout
Posted - 2008.07.27 17:31:00 - [65]
 

Putting in new models to prevent Isk seller spam is pointless if CCP continues to fail against the sweatshop / macro farmers and repeated offenders who bought Isk. And seeing 0.0 alliances who are actively protecting Isk farmer corporations for a share in the profits doesn't really help either.

If I had to name a MMOG company that does the least effort towards RMT then CCP wins that prize.

Loyal Servant
Caldari
The Knights Templar
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2008.07.27 23:45:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Layla McScout
Putting in new models to prevent Isk seller spam is pointless if CCP continues to fail against the sweatshop / macro farmers and repeated offenders who bought Isk. And seeing 0.0 alliances who are actively protecting Isk farmer corporations for a share in the profits doesn't really help either.

If I had to name a MMOG company that does the least effort towards RMT then CCP wins that prize.


Yeah, CCP wins there hands down.

As far as 0.0 alliances protecting farmers, this is a growing problem.
They are immune to this issue because they don't lose anything.
The 'rental agreements' that alliances have are not set in stone anyplace. It's all done in a chat, on a forum or on teamspeak/vent.
I can't see how anything can be done since this is not tracked anyplace.

What should happen is when a farmer ring is busted, they used that dirty isk to pay an alliance and that alliance should have the isk reversed.
This would make alliances very wary of taking on farmers - you might very well cause your alliance to collapse by taking dirty isk.

The problem right now... and I just talked to one of my farmers...
(I have not shot him yet so he is friendly)

Here is how they are operating..
The farmers in 0.0, missions, mining ice, etc etc take their warez to market and sell them/contract them.
That is, in the case of meta level 4 loot - faction drops are contracted.
Now, to transfer isk they don't simply 'transfer it'
When they transfer isk to their banking characters they place a really high buy order for ammo on the market in random locations and the farming character buys said 10 million isk/round ammo.
I have seen these sell orders personally and I have seen them go away too when there is a farmer in the area - this is why farmers stay in close proximity to NPC controlled 0.0
Btw, farmers call this 'seeking' - not farming.

Now, the farmer has transferred his isk to the bank and this isk is basically washed clean... CCP does not reverse these types of transactions and they know it.

-- I *CANNOT* verify this part, but I am assured it is one method of RMT transfer, per my 'farming friend' --

Last step in the chain is the isk buyer.
The buyer is contacted and instructed to place a sell order for any item of their choosing in any empire region of their choosing and to contact a banker in game and the banker then buys this item at that price.
They instruct the 'customer' - if asked to say they were scamming people which is perfectly okay.
Now, why can they assure secure transfer?
Again, because CCP does not go after market transactions or scammers.

I am forced to believe this, because I know they are doing it this way to transfer isk amongst themselves - contracts were public and exposed which made them easy to spot, and this was how they adapted.
In my discussions they know that CCP cannot do anything about this without coming down on scammers.
Since scamming is a part of eve, it is now how the farmers cover their tracks and transfer large quantities of isk without being seen.

Can something be done?
Put the scammers out of business or start banning isk buyers.
I personally think scamming is a legitimate method of play and keeps eve diverse.
We have scammers, thieves, pirates, entrepreneurs.... you name it.

Thoughts?
I am not really surprised that the farmers operate this way, I have suspected it since we started posting screenshots of contracts for 1 missile @ 500 million isk and the contracts went away shortly after.







Imperius Blackheart
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.07.28 00:25:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: CCP RyanD
Originally by: astowv
solution:

NO GOD DAMN FREE TRIALS


We're moving in that direction but we're not going to go all the way to zero. Over the next several months we're going to be changing the trial system a lot. What we really want to do is see the Buddy Program become the prime way that people come into EVE - that way they come with at least some connection to another player and all the help & resources that implies. Free trials via simple web signup will not go away but we are going to change that program to make it a "taste of EVE" and not a way to play the game with virtually unlimited access for 2 weeks.

RyanD


Sad to see it come to that if it does tbh, its one of the reasons I felt I could try eve and was what helped me get into it.


Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
Posted - 2008.07.28 00:44:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Ruze
But yeah, to continue trial account restrictions (using methods from other games):

- Trial accounts aren't allowed out of .5 space. Eh, I use trial spies all the time. I know the exploit is there, and I HAVE made profit off of it. And I honestly think that this is the best way to stop it from being misused.

- Trial accounts can access, but neither talk nor type in other channels.

- Trial accounts can't send mail.

- Trial accounts can't leave the beginner corporations. (of course, this means that real, live new players would be overwhelmed with spam ... hmm)

All these precedents, from the mail to the limited channel access, are made use of in some shape, form or fashion in other games. So it can be done successfully.




This,

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.07.28 00:52:00 - [69]
 

I'd like to see a very very open buddy key system...maybe for example a forum where newbies can post and ask for trial keys...

Murk Loar
O.W.N. Corp
OWN Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.28 01:11:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Loyal Servant

-- I *CANNOT* verify this part, but I am assured it is one method of RMT transfer, per my 'farming friend' --

Last step in the chain is the isk buyer.
The buyer is contacted and instructed to place a sell order for any item of their choosing in any empire region of their choosing and to contact a banker in game and the banker then buys this item at that price.
They instruct the 'customer' - if asked to say they were scamming people which is perfectly okay.
Now, why can they assure secure transfer?
Again, because CCP does not go after market transactions or scammers.

I am forced to believe this, because I know they are doing it this way to transfer isk amongst themselves - contracts were public and exposed which made them easy to spot, and this was how they adapted.
In my discussions they know that CCP cannot do anything about this without coming down on scammers.
Since scamming is a part of eve, it is now how the farmers cover their tracks and transfer large quantities of isk without being seen.
Thoughts?
I am not really surprised that the farmers operate this way, I have suspected it since we started posting screenshots of contracts for 1 missile @ 500 million isk and the contracts went away shortly after.



Thanks for posting that,I always wondered how drunk/tired those sellers in empty systems were when I saw 1 cruise missile at 280mill and upwards.Now I know what it's all about.Smart really.

Takima Templar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.07.28 01:33:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Takima Templar on 28/07/2008 01:36:00
Originally by: Loyal Servant

We also have an option to report as spammer and it adds the person to your ignore list.



From my experience I doubt reporting works well. Somebody at CCP (or any other MMO) have to track down to see if it's realy a gold-spammer or farm bot. This takes time, and CCP, nor any other MMO, can spend alot of people on that.

Originally by: Loyal Servant

I was told that if you rolled another character that you could bypass the n00b instance and land right into the real server.


As far as I know in LOTRO you have to go through the starter instance every single time you create a new character. There is no way around it. Nomather what race/class/server. Every single time you have to go through it. It's not in vane though, you level up while you go through the starter server. And it's relativly short, only a few hours, so not a real biggy for a 'real' player.

Originally by: Loyal Servant

I always play the newbie instance personally when making or trying out another class.
Something like this would work for eve, trial users connect to another server that is their own little sandbox.. and you have to pay for the real deal.


From experience bot farmers, or isk sellers, will get through to the main server at some point. Look up gold farm movies of chinese people for WoW on youtube. Those people work 9-10 hours a day, just farming and farming. I think you can't realy stop those, because they are actually playing the game. If you want to do something about it, then you should intercept the trading. However this is, again, very time consuming for CCP members.

Originally by: Loyal Servant

see, if the farmers had to pay to spam then spam would go away instantly.
legitimate trial users would still get the experience..


In every other MMO, they eventualy pay just like a real costumer, because at higher levels/skills, farming goes that much faster.

A starter instance or whatever at least stops the gold-spamming bots at the gate. The real farming isk selling is another matter.


Xevan Templar
Gallente
7th Batavian Squadron
Posted - 2008.07.28 01:35:00 - [72]
 

my alt speaking in the previous post, just incase :P

Gabbot
Gallente
Thanos and Killjoy Productions
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2008.07.28 01:45:00 - [73]
 

Impose an IQ test to all people signing up to trial accounts

That way we root out the isk spammers AND the WoW playersVery HappyVery HappyVery Happy

Davina Braben
Posted - 2008.07.28 01:58:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: CCP RyanD
Originally by: astowv
solution:

NO GOD DAMN FREE TRIALS


We're moving in that direction but we're not going to go all the way to zero. Over the next several months we're going to be changing the trial system a lot. What we really want to do is see the Buddy Program become the prime way that people come into EVE - that way they come with at least some connection to another player and all the help & resources that implies. Free trials via simple web signup will not go away but we are going to change that program to make it a "taste of EVE" and not a way to play the game with virtually unlimited access for 2 weeks.

RyanD


How are you going to adjust the new player experience to make it actually a "Taste of EVE" in a shorter time period then?

Canock
Posted - 2008.07.28 02:15:00 - [75]
 

It would be awesome if you needed like an invitation from an active account to have the free trial.

Underbalance
Posted - 2008.07.28 02:37:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Canock
It would be awesome if you needed like an invitation from an active account to have the free trial.


I really think this is a bad idea. Not allowing Free trials will slowly kill the game off. I joined on a free trial back in 2003, it was intimidating as is to start eve with so much content, adding another obstacle will only make players not want to try and Join eve. I almost never pay for a game I have not played, because I do not want to waste money.

Lily Cole
Posted - 2008.07.28 08:48:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: CCP RyanD
Originally by: Lui Kai
The easy answer is requiring a Credit Card to register for a trial.


Unfortunately, it is now possible to generate valid credit card accounts in bulk. There are foreign banks who are willing to provide this service to RMT dealers. Access to a valid credit card is no deterrent to RMT activity.

RyanD


How about just allowing ISK purchasing and CCP having to compete the ISK farmers?

Hurtado Soneka
Caldari
Vindicare Temple
Posted - 2008.07.28 08:51:00 - [78]
 

wanna block isk spammers? Dont be a loser and leave the damn noob corp you start in :p

its the only way suckers

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2008.07.28 10:18:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Hurtado Soneka
wanna block isk spammers? Dont be a loser and leave the damn noob corp you start in :p

its the only way suckers


Besides they travel in systems and spam aswell in channels.

Loyal Servant
Caldari
The Knights Templar
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:06:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Murk Loar

Thanks for posting that,I always wondered how drunk/tired those sellers in empty systems were when I saw 1 cruise missile at 280mill and upwards.Now I know what it's all about.Smart really.


Well, this is how they are moving money.
The problem here is that this is a real problem that cannot be solved without affecting normal players.

Why this problem has been allowed to progress to the point of being unsolvable is beyond me.
It's like a leaky roof, eventually it floods your house.

Thing is, they are actually altering the course of large alliances with the cash they wield.... it's hard to refuse a guy with a lot of isk that wants you to do something for him... such as grant free passage or allow them to 'seek' in just a few systems 23/7

When someone enters local where they are 'seeking' they log on another char and keep going someplace else - you are not stopping them..
They manage to stay in the game via game time cards.
As long as game time cards exist, they have easy means to get into eve and since they farm the isk themselves everything they make after the time card expenditure is profit.

I was told by another farmer that the shops are expanding into invention and plexes.
This would be bad - real industrialists would be forced out of work.

clonkrieger
Imperium Forces
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:23:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Ruze
But yeah, to continue trial account restrictions (using methods from other games):

- Trial accounts aren't allowed out of .5 space. Eh, I use trial spies all the time. I know the exploit is there, and I HAVE made profit off of it. And I honestly think that this is the best way to stop it from being misused.

- Trial accounts can access, but neither talk nor type in other channels.

- Trial accounts can't send mail.

- Trial accounts can't leave the beginner corporations. (of course, this means that real, live new players would be overwhelmed with spam ... hmm)

All these precedents, from the mail to the limited channel access, are made use of in some shape, form or fashion in other games. So it can be done successfully.


This would be the best bet.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:05:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
I'd like to see a very very open buddy key system...maybe for example a forum where newbies can post and ask for trial keys...


Actually that could work... but it would take a lot of admin. Almost anything that slows down the process of creating a new account would help (which is why I suggested mandatory completion of the tutorial).

Loyal Servant
Caldari
The Knights Templar
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2008.07.30 04:31:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
I'd like to see a very very open buddy key system...maybe for example a forum where newbies can post and ask for trial keys...


Actually that could work... but it would take a lot of admin. Almost anything that slows down the process of creating a new account would help (which is why I suggested mandatory completion of the tutorial).


I don't think that throwing roadblocks like buddy key systems are worth it.
It is too easy to fake, just like it's easy to make trial accounts.

I run 2 mailservers across 3 domains.
I can make all kinds of email addresses up for trial accounts.
Or, I can just create gmail accounts until I am blue in the face.

I don't think there is any way around it.
Putting trials on their own server for 14 days until they pay up is probably the best solution, but I think this is not as easy as it sounds because...
Trial accounts train skills and have assets, their name... etc.
These things would need to be copied from one database to the other.
(This is my guess)

This also means the name they pick would have to be reserved.
Someone could just cut to the chase and pay and jump right in with the rest of the players, in theory... so do you make that person do the trial as well or do you let them jump into the sandbox with us?

I am guessing this method would require some design changes, but IMHO it's the best way to go.





Pages: 1 2 [3]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only