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D4rkF4lcon
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.07.27 07:59:00 - [2611]
 

Edited by: D4rkF4lcon on 27/07/2008 08:37:33
Edited by: D4rkF4lcon on 27/07/2008 08:35:44
Edited by: D4rkF4lcon on 27/07/2008 08:08:59
Edited by: D4rkF4lcon on 27/07/2008 08:06:26
Originally by: Masked Shopper
Edited by: Masked Shopper on 27/07/2008 04:18:36
IRC Battle Report

What the hell? Obviously this can't be allowed to happen. This nerf has been required for a long time so these "pvpers" abusing this totally overpowered tactic are put back to the same level as everyone else Evil or Very Mad

How is it that a HAC gang can fight a gang of battleships and capitals head on and take minimal losses, especially with a titan on the field. This is dispicable and needs to end now. ugh


Look at dem nano fits.

Well crap cant post direct links to the kills, but look closely at them you wont see any low slots full of over drives and nanos. One polycarb not super nanoed but fitted for slight speed in order to maneuver around the battle field easily. Take away a small ships ability to move around the map and avoid fire, and it dies a la munin kill... and hell he wasn't even webbed. he failed to warp in time and got insta popped. As for level playing field we had only one advantage; maneuverability. They had a cyno jammed system with mother ships, a titan, carriers and instant reinforcements. We cant drop caps on them due to a cyno jammer. If we had more people on that night we probably could of taken a battleship gang up there and got a ton more kills, but we are small and bringing 10-15 battleships and 10 or so support into that situation would be suicide with current mechanics and those numbers. I would be interested to here some comments from the IRC guys that were at the fight though.

You obviously looked closely at statistics and took your time to think your post through.

You probably noticed the polycarb, but most of our combat ships are fitted for range and dmg with maybe one speed mod or rig thats about it. We don't go ludicrous speed. It's stupid to go that fast unless you want to bump or run stuff through a gate or tackle. Smart tactics is what won us that fight and the ability to out maneuver their guys in larger ships and manipulate their gang the way we want.


Lorna V
Minmatar
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.07.27 08:04:00 - [2612]
 

Originally by: Cutesmile
Edited by: Cutesmile on 27/07/2008 07:33:35
Originally by: Mar vel
Finally....

This kind of nerf I don't mind.


Minnie Web Magic a.k.a. "Stop right there" (that's not going away, btw, Huggie and Rapier pilots will just fit more webs)
HIC's and the Infini-point.

-Mar




You are lol man. A crow will be fly 8k/s.
If u use 2x 50% web = 2k/s
If u use 3x 50% web = 1k/s
If u use 4x 50% web = 500m/s

If u use a scrambler and disruptor and 4 web u cant use anything more in med slots. What yields the result that he will not be protected.
U are lol man a simple crow will be kill a Huginn or Rapier with 2 or 3 webs the crow pilots just go to 10km range and u will cant hit him with your artys when he orbit you 2k/s or 1k/s.


uhm...drones much? The crow will die. Don't like the nerf either, but let's no carried away.

greeny knight
Amarr
Solar Storm
Posted - 2008.07.27 08:05:00 - [2613]
 

i think the mwd cutoff go not far enough still you can fire your mwd when you jump into a hostile camp with bubble , i wold like to see that the bubble getthe same mwd cutoff when in a bubble otherwhise its no use , also i found it funny that ccp thinks that the speed is only 4000m/s on a septor , he din't play the game for a long time i guess

Brignoli
Caldari
7th Regimental Combat Team
Posted - 2008.07.27 08:05:00 - [2614]
 

little question
why does the nanos increasing v-max? and not only lower the time until the ship reaches v-max!

Cutesmile
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.07.27 08:20:00 - [2615]
 

Originally by: Lorna V
Originally by: Cutesmile
Edited by: Cutesmile on 27/07/2008 07:33:35
Originally by: Mar vel
Finally....

This kind of nerf I don't mind.


Minnie Web Magic a.k.a. "Stop right there" (that's not going away, btw, Huggie and Rapier pilots will just fit more webs)
HIC's and the Infini-point.

-Mar




You are lol man. A crow will be fly 8k/s.
If u use 2x 50% web = 2k/s
If u use 3x 50% web = 1k/s
If u use 4x 50% web = 500m/s

If u use a scrambler and disruptor and 4 web u cant use anything more in med slots. What yields the result that he will not be protected.
U are lol man a simple crow will be kill a Huginn or Rapier with 2 or 3 webs the crow pilots just go to 10km range and u will cant hit him with your artys when he orbit you 2k/s or 1k/s.


uhm...drones much? The crow will die. Don't like the nerf either, but let's no carried away.


And you lost your drones or killed someone them a fregatt will kill you right ?

Lorna V
Minmatar
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.07.27 08:29:00 - [2616]
 

Originally by: stormyfs911
Originally by: Shin Zu
Edited by: Shin Zu on 27/07/2008 04:54:30
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
For those of you against this change, I'm curious how you would kill the following little gang using 12 ships:

3 x 6km/s Rapiers
3 x 6km/s Curses
3 x 6km/s Ishtars
3 x Falcons







6x 10km/s Rapiers
6x 10km/s Curses
8x 5km/s Ishtars
6x Falcons
6x 15km/s Vagabonds
3x 20km/s Crows

I know you said 12 ships, but I'm thinking like a nano gang here.


Erm... 12 remote repping pulsegeddons?

oh wait.. forgot amarr sucked... Rolling Eyes


Well, except for those 3 falcons... Maybe 9 Pulse pocs and 3 falcons? Point is, nano-fleets aren't that hard to kill with the current game mechanics. Rapiers, curses, pulse-pocs (especially with ceptor support), anything with a heavy neut, sentry drones, even a couple of drone nav computers. Give the poor pilgrim it's rightful nos range, and that'll be one more. Can even stop the run back to gate with a couple of hics, and a few gang members willing to jump through to the other side for a friendly game of ping pong. Nanos were a problem until people figured out how to stop them. No help from CCP required for anyone who actually knows how to PVP.

Viper ShizzIe
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.07.27 08:33:00 - [2617]
 

Originally by: Masked Shopper
Edited by: Masked Shopper on 27/07/2008 04:18:36
IRC Battle Report

What the hell? Obviously this can't be allowed to happen. This nerf has been required for a long time so these "pvpers" abusing this totally overpowered tactic are put back to the same level as everyone else Evil or Very Mad

How is it that a HAC gang can fight a gang of battleships and capitals head on and take minimal losses, especially with a titan on the field. This is dispicable and needs to end now. ugh


Just saying, no HAC in the PL gang, save vagabonds, went over 4k/sec. IRC lost due to their own failure to produce more PvP skill then a blind infant.

Damion Zyne
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.07.27 08:52:00 - [2618]
 

Originally by: greeny knight
i think the mwd cutoff go not far enough still you can fire your mwd when you jump into a hostile camp with bubble , i wold like to see that the bubble getthe same mwd cutoff when in a bubble otherwhise its no use , also i found it funny that ccp thinks that the speed is only 4000m/s on a septor , he din't play the game for a long time i guess


Lol, do you want the possebility to turn of jump gates completly as well to make you feel save in providence ???

Also, what has the world come to that I have to agree with Lorna. Very HappyVery Happy

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2008.07.27 08:58:00 - [2619]
 

This thread is rapidly devolving into semi-literate grunts and howls.

Hopefully that means the blind panic has passed for most... and that people are preparing to do some testing and see what the actual pros and cons will be for speed tanking with the changes.

Looking at the numbers my modest prediction is that proponents of speed tanking will discover they have over-reacted a bit, and that speed tanking is still effective and fun.

I also predict that many who are currently defending the changes due to wanting their particular play style to be completely superior to (as opposed to being in balance with) the speed tanking style of play will start complaining that the changes don't go far enough.


The goal is not for one side or the other to "win" this debate. The goal is for the various types of play to be unique unto themselves, dependent on entirely separate skill sets and tactics, and above all fun for the participants... ALL of the participants.

Both sides need to be heavily involved in the testing for this to happen.



Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2008.07.27 09:06:00 - [2620]
 

Oh CCP, where has you gone?

Where is your famous risk/reward approach?

If I build and clone for 4 bil, then it should be better than a ship for 20 mil, right?

Those high speed ships are not invincible, you know. They SHOULD be better, certainly. Much better! And you know what, they are not invincible. It is just so that not every clueless joe and smoe can shoot one down. Why should they be able to? Why should it be that easy to kill a 4 bil ship? You need some preparation and strategy for that! If you cannot do that, so what?

(Proof that nanos can be caught - that ship cost certainly more than 1 bil)

Why are you breaking 100's of unrelated parts of the game (blaster boats, webbers, scramblers) just to fix a really small thing?!

Also I ask you: why did you introduce x-instinct pills if you didn't want high speed?

I ask you: why did you make the heat bonus of mwd 50% while most of the other modules have only 15% if you didn't want high speed?

I ask you: why did you introduce speed rigs - especially t2 speed rigs - if you didn't want high speed?

Your game developing is highly inconsistent! And instead of 'fixing' now the broken stuff (which is not really broken at all) and introduce 10 times more broken stuff, you should think about the basics again.

And don't listen to those noob whines who have no clue. Because regardless what you will do, they will ALWAYS whine. Next they will whine about remote repping pulse-apocs which they cannot reach because they lack the speed. Or they will whine about shield tanked drakes. Or they will whine about how unjust eve is in general.

STOP making a WOW in space!!!


We need variety and the more differences in ships the better!! We do not need one base class and only minor variations! We need BIG differences!

Lorna V
Minmatar
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.07.27 09:07:00 - [2621]
 

Originally by: Cutesmile
Originally by: Lorna V
Originally by: Cutesmile
Edited by: Cutesmile on 27/07/2008 07:33:35
Originally by: Mar vel
Finally....

This kind of nerf I don't mind.


Minnie Web Magic a.k.a. "Stop right there" (that's not going away, btw, Huggie and Rapier pilots will just fit more webs)
HIC's and the Infini-point.

-Mar




You are lol man. A crow will be fly 8k/s.
If u use 2x 50% web = 2k/s
If u use 3x 50% web = 1k/s
If u use 4x 50% web = 500m/s

If u use a scrambler and disruptor and 4 web u cant use anything more in med slots. What yields the result that he will not be protected.
U are lol man a simple crow will be kill a Huginn or Rapier with 2 or 3 webs the crow pilots just go to 10km range and u will cant hit him with your artys when he orbit you 2k/s or 1k/s.


uhm...drones much? The crow will die. Don't like the nerf either, but let's no carried away.


And you lost your drones or killed someone them a fregatt will kill you right ?


Huginn would be fine w/o drones against a crow. Rapier, it depends on how close you let the crow get, and if he has a scram or not (to kill your mwd and prevent your escape or ability to keep him at a range your guns might track at). I agree it's ridiculous that there's a circumstance in which a crow could solo kill a rapier, but I can't think of many circumstances in which I'd be forced to solo fight a crow in a rapier w/o drones. Moreover, the crow also needs to know you have no drones to even want to attempt it. Add in the possibility of a few lucky hits, and I don't see many crows rolling the dice on it. But, the fact that a drone-less rapier would have to run from a crow is embarassing, and I agree with you in principle.

maxx2020
Posted - 2008.07.27 09:20:00 - [2622]
 

This nerf is too wide spectrum to be anywhere near fair. They should take small baby steps if they are going to make a nerf of this scale. Reduce things over a 1 year period and see how it goes, not just a HUGE nerf that affects every module people use right now. That is essentially stealing. People pay billions for mods that overnight become obsolete, at LEAST give them a freaking chance to lose the mods before the nerf happens. And implants, OMFG people pay an insane amount of ISK for those, and again, overnight poof worthless. CCP runs this game like a neighborhood kickball game, where rules change at the whim of the neighborhood bully. And not only are they making insanely huge changes, but they do it over a 5 hour "discussion" and start the ball rolling on such an rediculous nerf. Are all the CEOs at CCP kids? Is impulsiveness the defining character of every person at CCP? Once again, another shining example of why EVE sits at 35k players online at any one time, and other competitors have millions, or hundreds of thousands. It all boils down to stunts like this. People get tired of the CCP devs being idiots and move on. If this nerf goes live, I too will move on. And I sure hope thousands of players feel the same way I do, because it would be wonderful to hit CCP in the pocketbook. Maybe then they would listen.

Mangold
Mad Bombers
Guns and Alcohol
Posted - 2008.07.27 09:20:00 - [2623]
 

"Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic. "

ROFL.

cyno jammers
jump portals
HP buff
destructible station services with a gazillion hitpoints
speed nerf #1
speed nerf #2

and know this.

I'm just waiting for a cloak nerf. The whiners will get that too someday.

Hello blob online.

Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.07.27 09:26:00 - [2624]
 

Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 27/07/2008 09:27:41
Originally by: Gnulpie
Oh CCP, where has you gone?

If I build and clone for 4 bil, then it should be better than a ship for 20 mil, right?

They SHOULD be better, certainly. Much better!

....STOP making a WOW in space!!!

We need variety and the more differences in ships the better!! We do not need one base class and only minor variations! We need BIG differences!


..pardon me, but this post seems to be afflicted with a mild case of schizophrenia. lets take it from the top.

first you ask that ccp underscore the performance of ships through the price of their fits. Normally money buys one rather diminishing returns with few exceptions - the amount of difference between a faction and an officer armour hardner, for example, is fairly minor in application, but the differences in price are staggering. When it comes to speed modifications, expensive setups offer multiplied magnitudes of effect through what is a nakedly obvious design oversight (the guy putting in the rigs didn't really consider the guy putting in the boosters, who didn't in turn consider the bloke fixing (in good faith, i must say) the inertial stabs from being a useless module. And i'm sure that fellow who thought up implant sets didn't quite consider how they'd effect everything else after the fact either. So whilst someone investing in, say, active tanking solutions will spend a similarly vast amount of money on upgrades, theirs afford them very little in, uh, roughly speaking performance per billion when you compare them with speed mods.

And they should be better. but not by vast orders of magnitude. the whole 'learn skills' logic offered by some protesters caves in on itself right at that point, betraying itself for the measure the good old boys with vast isk reserves use to own the noobs without. And although it yields nice ratios, it provides for some rather stale gameplay, which brings us to the next point!

Variety. Options. Well, nano fits have brought a rather interesting mentality to flying sub-battleship. Or more specifically, Fit Nano Or Else, You Noob - at least if you're in a serious pvp alliance. So much for options i suppose. you're right about one thing, though - we need big differences. And that is exactly why the proposed changes were conceived to begin with.

You're warning ccp against creating 'wow in space' in the same post you're using to advocate pimp gear as deciding factor in pvp.

oh, the irony..





Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.07.27 09:32:00 - [2625]
 

Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 27/07/2008 09:36:02

Originally by: maxx2020
This nerf is too wide spectrum to be anywhere near fair. They should take small baby steps if they are going to make a nerf of this scale.


mate, this is exactly the problem. small baby step changes are what has effed this game's balance up to the point we see today. different things being done without any coherent oversight, greater vision of combat mechanics and ships balance.

I say whole vast systems need to be changed simultaneously and with full understanding and consideration of one another - the local as means of intel, the scanning, the interface, the sov system, titans and cyno jammers, everything. Granted its a bit to take in as a matter of scope, but whole systems should be published, not ragtag tweaks and notches here and there - you do not have to be weaned off of this ridiculous oversight like some sort of a junkie.

ps: can i.. uh, well, you know..

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.27 09:32:00 - [2626]
 

I'm in favour of these changes. TBH I was waiting for these for months now. The question is not if the nano ships are killable or not.

They die and they die fast and you donít need to be a genius or use 723458723B isk setups to beat a nano gang. The question is that nano's kill variety - you need to fly specific ships with specific setup to play a specific role in order to beat the nano gang -, is unfair to an entire ship class (missile boats pretty much useless against a nano setup) and the worst:

The speed is so unbalanced that a pilot using a nano setup truly doesnít commit the ship. It can fly away out of harm extremely fast or approach a gate, and for me that is the main issue. When you go fight a nano gang you kill one or 2 and the rest runs away or stay at 300 km playing with ceptors that really struggle to reach the same speeds of the nano hacs/recons.

I've seen BS reaching 17K m/s, Iíve seen LSE Zealot's, command ships almost disappeared, the specific ship bonus donít matter anymore. It has to be fast !!! You have to fit your lows with overdrives/nanos/inertias and if you have room some kind of damage mods.

Even if you're setups have laughable, tank, fire power, or sustainability, speed will save you, and the numbers (nano blob's), will provide the firepower and the protection you need. If things go bad, you're fast, so you can run...

Glad the nano era is reaching is end. RIP.

Haakelen
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.07.27 09:35:00 - [2627]
 

Originally by: DeadDuck
LSE Zealot


Zhilan Alaioki
Posted - 2008.07.27 09:48:00 - [2628]
 

Edited by: Zhilan Alaioki on 27/07/2008 09:51:23
I think the real problem with this patch will be that itll require a lot of secondary balancing to adjust the ships of all four races to the new situation, especially Minmatar, which are supposed to be hit and run ships and I hope CCP doesnt really want to kill off that tactic.

Will see how things go on monday, but I really donīt want combat to slow down. Itd really be a pity if all that were left of EVE were remote repping gangs. They were already a good counter to nano ships, but at least you were able to run or outmaneuver them.

From CCPs track record though, I presume they wonīt bother looking at anything except the current changes and tweaking those to not ruin everything too much, which is good, it just isnīt always enough. Some ships will need to have their bonuses adjusted and some changes made.

P.S.: To DeadDuck: And how will removing that entire range of fittings help variety? Youre not supposed to be able to easily chase down someone whose entire focus is fitting on speed. If that becomes possible, it will make combat in EVE very boring, because it will be blobbing all the way.
Ive been on the receiving end of harassing intys and other nano ships a couple of times and it was always FUN.

Damion Zyne
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.07.27 09:49:00 - [2629]
 

Originally by: DeadDuck
I'm in favour of these changes. TBH I was waiting for these for months now. The question is not if the nano ships are killable or not.

They die and they die fast and you don’t need to be a genius or use 723458723B isk setups to beat a nano gang. The question is that nano's kill variety - you need to fly specific ships with specific setup to play a specific role in order to beat the nano gang -, is unfair to an entire ship class (missile boats pretty much useless against a nano setup) and the worst:

The speed is so unbalanced that a pilot using a nano setup truly doesn’t commit the ship. It can fly away out of harm extremely fast or approach a gate, and for me that is the main issue. When you go fight a nano gang you kill one or 2 and the rest runs away or stay at 300 km playing with ceptors that really struggle to reach the same speeds of the nano hacs/recons.

I've seen BS reaching 17K m/s, I’ve seen LSE Zealot's, command ships almost disappeared, the specific ship bonus don’t matter anymore. It has to be fast !!! You have to fit your lows with overdrives/nanos/inertias and if you have room some kind of damage mods.

Even if you're setups have laughable, tank, fire power, or sustainability, speed will save you, and the numbers (nano blob's), will provide the firepower and the protection you need. If things go bad, you're fast, so you can run...

Glad the nano era is reaching is end. RIP.



Why people think that erasing a viable setup is increasing variety is beyond me. It would only make sense if nano setups would be the I-Win button that they are not as you state yourself.

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.27 09:49:00 - [2630]
 

this situation is not really new...

speed was always the best choice in pvp since they introduced proper tracking.

We have seen the dual mwd ravens, tripple mwd thoraxes (my favourite tbh) and oversized AB times.
It is all around the problem that in Eve it is very hard to fight superior numbers with smaller numbers if your not able to break the fighter into a few smaller engagements.

if you consider how fighting a nano gang works, nothing has changed over the past few years.
Eve was always about creating superior numbers in an engagement. Nano gangs try to lure singe ships out of the blob to kill them, or to catch ships trying to melt into the blob. Same thing was with dual mwd and oversized ab setups.

Even fleetbattles were party about it, warping out and in trying to catch a part of the enemy fleet and slowly grinding through the enemy numbers.

I think one big issue is still that blobbing up has no real negative effect for the blobber, there is still nothing which makes it desirable to come with fewer numbers into a fight.
And the problem with fewer numbers is, especially in 0.0, when you choose not to nano, and the enemy notices that you cant really run away, he can just drop caps and stuff on you and your ****ed.

As long as you dont have to counter once specific shipclass with a special shipclass it wont work without speedtanking.
For example, the only thing that protects a frigate from a carrier is its speed and the time needed for the carrier to lock the frigate. Once the frigate is is locked, and didnt manage to get out of range, it gets ****d by the carrier. No matter what the frigate tries...

I think the only semi balanced shipclass in this game are dreads, they are truely only usable to kill caps and POSes, in which they really shine, but a single dread can never kill a smaller ship with its guns (yeah, the moros is cheating with drone pwnage).

Anyway, I think without a radical change in combat mechanics, people will always try to speedtank to avoid getting hotdropped and outblobb. There is just no other way, and there has never been another way. Remote repping wont work anymore if the enemy is bringing in the caps, and has at least 10 IQ points.

Cutesmile
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:03:00 - [2631]
 

Edited by: Cutesmile on 27/07/2008 10:10:25
Originally by: Gnulpie
Oh CCP, where has you gone?

Where is your famous risk/reward approach?

If I build and clone for 4 bil, then it should be better than a ship for 20 mil, right?

Those high speed ships are not invincible, you know. They SHOULD be better, certainly. Much better! And you know what, they are not invincible. It is just so that not every clueless joe and smoe can shoot one down. Why should they be able to? Why should it be that easy to kill a 4 bil ship? You need some preparation and strategy for that! If you cannot do that, so what?

(Proof that nanos can be caught - that ship cost certainly more than 1 bil)

Why are you breaking 100's of unrelated parts of the game (blaster boats, webbers, scramblers) just to fix a really small thing?!

Also I ask you: why did you introduce x-instinct pills if you didn't want high speed?

I ask you: why did you make the heat bonus of mwd 50% while most of the other modules have only 15% if you didn't want high speed?

I ask you: why did you introduce speed rigs - especially t2 speed rigs - if you didn't want high speed?

Your game developing is highly inconsistent! And instead of 'fixing' now the broken stuff (which is not really broken at all) and introduce 10 times more broken stuff, you should think about the basics again.

And don't listen to those noob whines who have no clue. Because regardless what you will do, they will ALWAYS whine. Next they will whine about remote repping pulse-apocs which they cannot reach because they lack the speed. Or they will whine about shield tanked drakes. Or they will whine about how unjust eve is in general.

STOP making a WOW in space!!!


We need variety and the more differences in ships the better!! We do not need one base class and only minor variations! We need BIG differences!


Signed.
If CCP would want to relieve the problem, would be enough reduction the MWD throttle 550% to 300% and polycarbon mass reduction bonus -15 to -5% or -10%.
This two simple changes changing the nanoships speed over 50%.
But no, those CCP guys want to change another stupid things, what the balance of the game would be crap.
Skirmish modules and implants value changing but the others not ? And another stupid ideas 7.5km distruptor turned off the mwd-s. Lol
How two go a slow plated ship in distance with 50% webs ?
How to catch a ship on gate when he try to go back to gate ?
The lag is the game bigger problem, but not fixing just they try to make always idiotic nerfs.
Pls CCP workin on the real problems, the speed could be solved with two simple changes with his alteration, than I wrote it down early

PS… i forgot the overheat 15% enough.

Red Thunder
WEPRA CORP
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:06:00 - [2632]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
Oh CCP, where has you gone?

Where is your famous risk/reward approach?

If I build and clone for 4 bil, then it should be better than a ship for 20 mil, right?

Those high speed ships are not invincible, you know. They SHOULD be better, certainly. Much better! And you know what, they are not invincible. It is just so that not every clueless joe and smoe can shoot one down. Why should they be able to? Why should it be that easy to kill a 4 bil ship? You need some preparation and strategy for that! If you cannot do that, so what?

(Proof that nanos can be caught - that ship cost certainly more than 1 bil)

Why are you breaking 100's of unrelated parts of the game (blaster boats, webbers, scramblers) just to fix a really small thing?!

Also I ask you: why did you introduce x-instinct pills if you didn't want high speed?

I ask you: why did you make the heat bonus of mwd 50% while most of the other modules have only 15% if you didn't want high speed?

I ask you: why did you introduce speed rigs - especially t2 speed rigs - if you didn't want high speed?

Your game developing is highly inconsistent! And instead of 'fixing' now the broken stuff (which is not really broken at all) and introduce 10 times more broken stuff, you should think about the basics again.

And don't listen to those noob whines who have no clue. Because regardless what you will do, they will ALWAYS whine. Next they will whine about remote repping pulse-apocs which they cannot reach because they lack the speed. Or they will whine about shield tanked drakes. Or they will whine about how unjust eve is in general.

STOP making a WOW in space!!!


We need variety and the more differences in ships the better!! We do not need one base class and only minor variations! We need BIG differences!


/signed

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:21:00 - [2633]
 

Originally by: Damion Zyne
Originally by: DeadDuck
I'm in favour of these changes. TBH I was waiting for these for months now. The question is not if the nano ships are killable or not.

They die and they die fast and you donít need to be a genius or use 723458723B isk setups to beat a nano gang. The question is that nano's kill variety - you need to fly specific ships with specific setup to play a specific role in order to beat the nano gang -, is unfair to an entire ship class (missile boats pretty much useless against a nano setup) and the worst:

The speed is so unbalanced that a pilot using a nano setup truly doesnít commit the ship. It can fly away out of harm extremely fast or approach a gate, and for me that is the main issue. When you go fight a nano gang you kill one or 2 and the rest runs away or stay at 300 km playing with ceptors that really struggle to reach the same speeds of the nano hacs/recons.

I've seen BS reaching 17K m/s, Iíve seen LSE Zealot's, command ships almost disappeared, the specific ship bonus donít matter anymore. It has to be fast !!! You have to fit your lows with overdrives/nanos/inertias and if you have room some kind of damage mods.

Even if you're setups have laughable, tank, fire power, or sustainability, speed will save you, and the numbers (nano blob's), will provide the firepower and the protection you need. If things go bad, you're fast, so you can run...

Glad the nano era is reaching is end. RIP.



Why people think that erasing a viable setup is increasing variety is beyond me. It would only make sense if nano setups would be the I-Win button that they are not as you state yourself.


Speed is unbalanced. I have nothing against fast ships, but when speed starts to reach certain limits to the point that weapons can't hit you or BS are way faster then frigates, something is very wrong and is broken. If it is broken it needs to be fixed.

With the introduction of this changes you will still be fast, webbers are being nerfed and if a interceptor reaches you and scrambles turning off your mwd you can always web it and kill it, or neutralize it.

What this proposed changes will do is balance the ships velocitys all across the board. A setup designed to be fast will still be faster then one designed to tank or damage, but not faster then certain weapon systems or faster then other ships trully designed to be fast.

Vagas will continue to be the kings of speed, you will be faster flying it then someone using a zealot, sacri or ishtar, but probably intys can catch him, and drones can also reach him, missiles will be able to make true damage and not the 0.0 or 1.2 damages.

Haakelen
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:24:00 - [2634]
 

Originally by: DeadDuck
or BS are way faster then frigates


You spout this **** every thread.

A plated Burst will go slower than a Machariel with an Afterburner. Specially fitted battleships with ridiculous amounts of money put into them can outrun frigates. So ****ing what. They are edge cases, and you know it.

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:34:00 - [2635]
 

Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: DeadDuck
or BS are way faster then frigates


You spout this **** every thread.

A plated Burst will go slower than a Machariel with an Afterburner. Specially fitted battleships with ridiculous amounts of money put into them can outrun frigates. So ****ing what. They are edge cases, and you know it.


They are edge cases, yes, but a living example of how speed is unbalanced. The 17 K was a limit case, but because of the game mechanics flaws, things like this are possibile. The same flaws work for cheaper setups and for a variety of other ships.

Damion Zyne
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:36:00 - [2636]
 

Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Originally by: DeadDuck
I'm in favour of these changes. TBH I was waiting for these for months now. The question is not if the nano ships are killable or not.

They die and they die fast and you don’t need to be a genius or use 723458723B isk setups to beat a nano gang. The question is that nano's kill variety - you need to fly specific ships with specific setup to play a specific role in order to beat the nano gang -, is unfair to an entire ship class (missile boats pretty much useless against a nano setup) and the worst:

The speed is so unbalanced that a pilot using a nano setup truly doesn’t commit the ship. It can fly away out of harm extremely fast or approach a gate, and for me that is the main issue. When you go fight a nano gang you kill one or 2 and the rest runs away or stay at 300 km playing with ceptors that really struggle to reach the same speeds of the nano hacs/recons.

I've seen BS reaching 17K m/s, I’ve seen LSE Zealot's, command ships almost disappeared, the specific ship bonus don’t matter anymore. It has to be fast !!! You have to fit your lows with overdrives/nanos/inertias and if you have room some kind of damage mods.

Even if you're setups have laughable, tank, fire power, or sustainability, speed will save you, and the numbers (nano blob's), will provide the firepower and the protection you need. If things go bad, you're fast, so you can run...

Glad the nano era is reaching is end. RIP.



Why people think that erasing a viable setup is increasing variety is beyond me. It would only make sense if nano setups would be the I-Win button that they are not as you state yourself.


Speed is unbalanced. I have nothing against fast ships, but when speed starts to reach certain limits to the point that weapons can't hit you or BS are way faster then frigates, something is very wrong and is broken. If it is broken it needs to be fixed.

With the introduction of this changes you will still be fast, webbers are being nerfed and if a interceptor reaches you and scrambles turning off your mwd you can always web it and kill it, or neutralize it.

What this proposed changes will do is balance the ships velocitys all across the board. A setup designed to be fast will still be faster then one designed to tank or damage, but not faster then certain weapon systems or faster then other ships trully designed to be fast.

Vagas will continue to be the kings of speed, you will be faster flying it then someone using a zealot, sacri or ishtar, but probably intys can catch him, and drones can also reach him, missiles will be able to make true damage and not the 0.0 or 1.2 damages.


Well, I for one would be fine with a limit to speed. Mentioning extreme examples of nano fits dont lay the ground for a general nano nerf though. You answer fails to show where the variety comes from.

Also your point about relative speed is moot as long as relative speed hardly matters in PvP. As it stands now post nano nerf, there isnt the choice of gank, tank or speed. It will be gank or tank cause going 300m/s more will yield you nada.

Cutesmile
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:39:00 - [2637]
 

Edited by: Cutesmile on 27/07/2008 10:49:43
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Originally by: DeadDuck
I'm in favour of these changes. TBH I was waiting for these for months now. The question is not if the nano ships are killable or not.

They die and they die fast and you donít need to be a genius or use 723458723B isk setups to beat a nano gang. The question is that nano's kill variety - you need to fly specific ships with specific setup to play a specific role in order to beat the nano gang -, is unfair to an entire ship class (missile boats pretty much useless against a nano setup) and the worst:

The speed is so unbalanced that a pilot using a nano setup truly doesnít commit the ship. It can fly away out of harm extremely fast or approach a gate, and for me that is the main issue. When you go fight a nano gang you kill one or 2 and the rest runs away or stay at 300 km playing with ceptors that really struggle to reach the same speeds of the nano hacs/recons.

I've seen BS reaching 17K m/s, Iíve seen LSE Zealot's, command ships almost disappeared, the specific ship bonus donít matter anymore. It has to be fast !!! You have to fit your lows with overdrives/nanos/inertias and if you have room some kind of damage mods.

Even if you're setups have laughable, tank, fire power, or sustainability, speed will save you, and the numbers (nano blob's), will provide the firepower and the protection you need. If things go bad, you're fast, so you can run...

Glad the nano era is reaching is end. RIP.



Why people think that erasing a viable setup is increasing variety is beyond me. It would only make sense if nano setups would be the I-Win button that they are not as you state yourself.


Speed is unbalanced. I have nothing against fast ships, but when speed starts to reach certain limits to the point that weapons can't hit you or BS are way faster then frigates, something is very wrong and is broken. If it is broken it needs to be fixed.

With the introduction of this changes you will still be fast, webbers are being nerfed and if a interceptor reaches you and scrambles turning off your mwd you can always web it and kill it, or neutralize it.

What this proposed changes will do is balance the ships velocitys all across the board. A setup designed to be fast will still be faster then one designed to tank or damage, but not faster then certain weapon systems or faster then other ships trully designed to be fast.

Vagas will continue to be the kings of speed, you will be faster flying it then someone using a zealot, sacri or ishtar, but probably intys can catch him, and drones can also reach him, missiles will be able to make true damage and not the 0.0 or 1.2 damages.


Just a question. U wanna use missiles do I take it well?
U wanna hit nanos with missiles ? Neutralize it and u will hit them. Use ur brain or something. I understand it that u want make better on your life in game.
But his changes coming all players want to fly with Drake or missile spammers ship. Those ship have no tank, no firepower unfitteable a vaga or rapier for tank, if they lost the speed they will be unuseable for fight, and the pilots will be fly with missile spammer ships.
And u know missile spam = lag, without small PvP groups = blob = more lag

Haakelen
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:40:00 - [2638]
 

Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Haakelen
Originally by: DeadDuck
or BS are way faster then frigates


You spout this **** every thread.

A plated Burst will go slower than a Machariel with an Afterburner. Specially fitted battleships with ridiculous amounts of money put into them can outrun frigates. So ****ing what. They are edge cases, and you know it.


They are edge cases, yes, but a living example of how speed is unbalanced. The 17 K was a limit case, but because of the game mechanics flaws, things like this are possibile. The same flaws work for cheaper setups and for a variety of other ships.



Going by your standards (which I don't concede to, btw), removing snakes, heavily nerfing gang bonuses, modifying polys, and redoing drugs would fix ****. If anything should be done, that should be the extent of it. You, however, fall into a category of anti-nano whiners in this thread: Bitter vets who want to return to an age that is impossible with 35,000 people online during peak.

Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:43:00 - [2639]
 

Originally by: Haakelen
You, however, fall into a category of anti-nano whiners in this thread: Bitter vets who want to return to an age that is impossible with 35,000 people online during peak.


evidently you're placing ccp into this category as well, with the obvious exception of them actually designing the game.

Haakelen
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.07.27 10:46:00 - [2640]
 

Because CCP is obviously most forward looking and non-myopic, see also cyno jammers, remote DD, passive shield tanks, jump bridges, and etc.


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