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Anahid Brutus
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:46:00 - [331]
 

Originally by: Adam C
Yay sniper fleets have meaning again. Havant flown my sniper tempest in months.

that's the only pro i can find :(
fyi sniping tempests are worthless now through a wonderful mix of nerfs such as scripts, hp buff and t1 apocs being a billion times better

Soyemia
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:46:00 - [332]
 

By the way, whats the role of claymore after this? You cant fly it with a inty gang and its bonuses are to speed. Oh man, you killed one matari ship entirely. Good job, I do endorse nerfin nanos but just rething minmatar a role in this game.

Karando
Random Goods
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:46:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Jinshu
A blasterthron is not meant to be able to rip appart an interceptor - it is meant to rip apart it's counterpart, namely a big ship like a BC or another BS. And for that 60 % webber, tracking and mwd speed will still be enough.

lol.
who is this ccp fail employee?

Hoshino Rika
Caldari
Shocky Industries Ltd.
The Alternative 4
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:47:00 - [334]
 

how it will be with WCS? will WCS protect mwd from beeing disabled by scrambler?

Lily Cole
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:49:00 - [335]
 

At least by the end of Monday the nano pilots will have stopped crying, and the rest of us are whining when everybody figures out it's a boost, not a nerf.

Slave Runner
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:49:00 - [336]
 

Oh, and please revisit the Hyena. It only got 3 bonuses because the web range was so powerful (small signature is usually one of the matari racial flavours, not a bonus). And it's MWD bonus is now considered circumstantial, as it shall use ABs more often.

So, we have a t2 ship with one useless bonus (target painters), a second useless bonus (50% webs), a fake bonus (signature radius) and a circumstantial bonus (MWD cap penalty).

Hyena: the mighty No-DPS No-EWAR Frigate of Doom.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: Korinn
Also sig radius reduction is possibly the worst bonus ever, why would you even contemplate changing X-Instinct to that - I've got skirmish spec 5 + mindlink + maxed skills and I've never ever used the sig reduction mod because, quite frankly, it's useless.

If two sniper fleets meet, the one with sig reduction boost will absorb 30% more damage than the one who doesn't. As soon as you turn on the MWDs the bonus is wasted though.

Helevorn Feanaro
Gene Works
AKA-AHN KINGDOM
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 - [338]
 

At Last! Sounds good. Thank you CCP.

The thought that there may be even the slightest of little buffs for AF's in there makes me happy in my pants.

Pantheros
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 - [339]
 

Firstly, forgive me if I'm gonna repeat what some of the pro-nano peeps have already said but I'm just adding my 0.02 isk to the argument.

I've been playing EVE now almost 4 years.. seen many a nerf bat splatting and thought "ok, ccp have a grip on game mechanics, i see why they wanna do it, i might not like it, but oh well".
To me, this looks like an over-zealous and under-analysed proposal and for once I'm posting against a Blog comment (me not forum who*e).

For quite some time now webbers, mwd, and disruptors/scramlbers have played their part, and they work.
Yes, there was a point where putting fairly cheap mods on a battleship would get it to 15km/s and that has already been nerfed, and deservedly so.
Now ur fixing perceived speed issues because you have an inexperienced player base shouting "nerf" seems to be against what CCP were trying to achieve some time back "a great PvP experience" and CCP were proud of PvP awards they got from certain www bodies.

As mentioned in previous posts, there are numerous ways to counter nano pilots. It seems those who get off their chuff and actually learn about the game mechanics, instead of thinking this is a point n click PvP game, have put themselves in a position where they can cope with guerilla tactics. And, what is it you're trying to do to PvPers, make the game simpler? Seriously, what makes EVE an awesome (worth paying 4 years of subscription) game is the complexity around PvP.. this aint no point n click PvP game. YARRRR!!

Personally, I like the various options there are around PvP, including nanoing. With this you're removing a PvP element from EVE for a fair amount of your subscribers.

A quote from some wise person.. "don't fix what aint broke", or better yet, are you fixing what is actually broken (some people's perception) versus something to simplify things for the inexperienced (nerf nano). Changing something that's not actually broken that impacts so many players.. hmm.

Another quote from some wise person.. "if you can't beat them, join them".. stop satisfying the needs of the lazy and inexperienced players.. tell them how they can counter it or do it themselves (maybe a forum thread for "beaten n battered carebears" might help them ugh).

There are many options in EVE around mechanics for PvP.. let people explore and learn instead of spoon-feeding them with nerfs.

Zikka
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Raquel Trotter


Nail on head... Also your forget that minnie have the hardest training requirements for most of their ships due to split weapon systems and dual tanks.

Seems like ccp want this game to become stationhugging-drake-blobs-online


So is it Gallente or Minmatar who are screwed here? You both seem to think you are.

There have been several minmatar boosts recently (the torp buff, the change to resists, etc) but of course you ignore those. This change opens up a lot more options, not closing them down, and my rapier will still be plenty useful. I'm a rapier specialist with 3 fully fitted and rigged rapiers out in 0.0 and I still think this is a good idea!

LoveKebab
Caldari
LOST IDEA
C0VEN
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 - [341]
 

Edited by: LoveKebab on 25/07/2008 13:53:15
WTS 53km/s panther - starting bid 4bil

Sha Dar
eXceed Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:51:00 - [342]
 

And this game takes yet one more step towards becoming "Supercaps Online"

This can only increase blob warfare and make the servers cry even more than they do now...

Fix blob warfare not the only effective, or even viable counter to it you morons...

taylor04
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:52:00 - [343]
 

IM NOT THE FIRST TO SAY THIS BUT SOLO SMALL PVP WILL BE FINISHED... CAREBEARS WILL BE OUR EQUALS..

SO F U AND F**K YOUR CRAZY IDEAS CCP..

80% PVP BASE USE nano's so why change ???

oh because carebears run the game oh how silly i forgot..

i got im from work to hear this bull crud...

thanks for the 4 years ccp now shove your game where the sun dont shine if these changes go through..

Mad

Riho
Gallente
Drop of Blood
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:52:00 - [344]
 

damn.. all of my blaster ships are going to useless.

1st scramblers turn off mwd.... yay cant get to range (ok.. can be solved by ABs... but they dont help much at all tbh)
2nd webs only 60% or so... yay cant hit **** because of tracking

3rd all the huginns/rapiers are going to be EVEN more useless than arazus/lacheisis are atm(yay... another recon nerf... like the pilgrim/arazu/lacheisis arent enough)

time to train drakes ppl... because that what most ****ty newbs fly these days and CCP is on track to only listen to them more than experianced PvPrs.

A Sinner
Muppet Factory
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:52:00 - [345]
 

Quote:
Currently when youíre webbed itís pretty much game over unless youíre doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%.


I need a drink... and I'll need more after it.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:53:00 - [346]
 

Overall sounds excellent. I'm sure there will be lots to tweak before it's all good, but the basic direction is good. Speed *was* out of control, and I'm glad something is being done about it. And wow... actually fitting AB on a pvp ship... will wonders never cease Very Happy

A bit concerned about blaster boats with these changes, but we'll see.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:54:00 - [347]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 25/07/2008 13:55:51
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Overall sounds excellent. I'm sure there will be lots to tweak before it's all good, but the basic direction is good. Speed *was* out of control, and I'm glad something is being done about it. And wow... actually fitting AB on a pvp ship... will wonders never cease Very Happy



Till you get bubbled and DD'd. Then you will be back to MWD fast.

EDIT:
o yea with current changes. Maybe its good idea to increase firing delay on DD. Also slow down fighters so they dont kill ceptors/dictors? Also i guess need more tracking on most guns.

Kery Syander
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:55:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: fiber0pti
lol at the polycarbon legion tears they taste so sweet


lol at ir0n being proud of defeating anyone with a page long blue list and 2-3000 of their favorite members. Laughing

oh noes my polies... don't worry we will still find a way to kill you when you are too afraid to leave dock range.

Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:55:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Tommy Blue
Will warp scramblers still give 2 "warp points"?

worst post

BritishInvader
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:56:00 - [350]
 

Edited by: BritishInvader on 25/07/2008 13:58:51
Edited by: BritishInvader on 25/07/2008 13:57:45
I just stopped training all Minmatar skills since they are now definitely the worst race. (Speed was all they had).

Honestly, this just makes less ships viable to fly. The Bellicose, for examples, only advantage was that it could perma-run the MWD. (Because guess what, Target Painters are bloody useless).

Also, Domination scramblers on an Arazu will scram (and basically web since they destroy MWDs) up to 14km, which is longer than web range.

We do need a speed nerf. We need a Snakes and Polycarb nerf. That's about it. We need the t2 variants of some ships to have actually useful bonuses.

ElvenLord
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:56:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Blazde
Edited by: Blazde on 25/07/2008 13:10:37This simply isn't true. One of the great problems with 'ludicrous speed' is that inertia will take you right through web range and out the other side before you slow down enough. If there's even a hint of lag the webber may not even activate. Countering this with your own fast/faster ship to keep them in web range is futile, with a few hundred seconds normal latency most people get it's impossible to keep up with the turns of the ship you're facing. Rapiers/Huggins do counter but relying on 2 specific ships to counter an entire gameplay style is wrong.

Web isn't a brick wall, it's like turning your engine off on the motorway (with the clutch in Razz) - you're still going places for a while.

The 7.5km anti-mwd scramblers will probably be even worse, but I'll reserve final judgement until I've tried them - the reactivation delay sounds intriguing. And how about a really big range bonus to scramblers for assault frigates?

Anyway nerfing the strength of webbers is fine, they just desperately need a range boost.


/signed

Irkenslushk
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:56:00 - [352]
 

This sucks.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:57:00 - [353]
 

Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 25/07/2008 14:01:19
Hmm where to start ...

I think the changes as proposed in the current form are all crap and will make matters worse on many more ends than just keepin nanos as they are now.

1. scrambler disrupting MWDs - rubbish. you are creating an exception to a rule. one module from a range of modules that has one more special ability. this is not good.

2. mwd cooldown phase - baaaad ... many ships need more than one MWD cycle to reach top speed (i.e. blaster battleships), this will screw them big time.

3. web effectivnes reduction - without increasing the range, this is not good. also as was mentioned, this is an Amarr boost and Gallente nerf.

What should be done instead:

1. rework the tracking mechanics. they are total crap at the moment. similar some specialised missiles are broken. light web drones PLEASE !!! it should be the guns and missile ability to it smaller size targets to differentiate the classes but these are currently broken.

2. remove MWDs from the game completely. instead of having 2 speed boost modules, we should have one + enhancing modules and ship bonuses.

3. I know 2 is not viable. so a modification to MWDs is in order: while MWD is active, you cannot lock targets or activate modules that cannot be activated while in warp. solved pretty much any MWD problems. they will become GTFO modules. nothing more, nothing less.

Stab Wounds
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:59:00 - [354]
 

i see lots of gallente whiners too lol

gallente have been overpowered for far too long and needed a nerf (megathron, thorax, deimos, eos, astarte.) now you guys have to use tactics instead of mwd,web, shoot. ugh so sorry you don't have a brain.


Pushtan
Quondam Souls of the Universe corporation
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:59:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: taylor04
IM NOT THE FIRST TO SAY THIS BUT SOLO SMALL PVP WILL BE FINISHED... CAREBEARS WILL BE OUR EQUALS..

SO F U AND F**K YOUR CRAZY IDEAS CCP..

80% PVP BASE USE nano's so why change ???

oh because carebears run the game oh how silly i forgot..

i got im from work to hear this bull crud...

thanks for the 4 years ccp now shove your game where the sun dont shine if these changes go through..

Mad


i can haz stuf?

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2008.07.25 13:59:00 - [356]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 25/07/2008 14:08:45

I've jeered and waved my pitchfork in the past with the best of them with shouts of "Crucify him!!" regarding balancing changes to the droneboats, the Deimos etc...

But with retrospect I can see that the necessary evils your Utopia balancing team are addressing. This case of ludicrous speed is no different.

Sure I could join with the likes of Pandemic Legion (I only read page 1 of the feedback!) in their mass whines and tears based on unfounded speculation about how this will aid blobs, kill small gang PVP etc, but really noone knows until the change is in effect and people have adapted.

You guys at CCP see the current problem, which I'm very glad you've finally admitted exists and I trust you will do your best to solve it step by step for the benefit of us all. The most important thing is though, that you recognise when things are broken so in this instance with ludicrous speed you've not let me down.

Personally I'd speculate as a blaster ship pilot I'm going like the change to webbing since I always felt 90% of velocity reduction was a bit harsh given the shortest range weapon systems in game. I'm also delighted my mid slot wont necessarily be a MWD - variety comes back into play fro PVP and keeping a low sig radius may mean something again. Would it be feasible to add a mid-way module between AB and MWD? with mixed benefits and penalties of each module? Perhaps 250% speed bonus and a 25% sig radius penalty? Just a thought.

The impact of this change will be profound. I just hope you guys will react quickly with any counterbalancing after the results of the change become apparent on Tranquility in fleets, on blobs and when those who push mechanics to the limits for advantages have tried and tested the new workings.

So no "Crucify him!!" shouts this time. More "Lets wait and see....then maybe crucufy him!!" shouts from me this time! Am I getting lenient in my old age? Smile

Anyway cheers Nozh (and CCP) for this Dev blog. Wink

Aenis Veros
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.07.25 14:00:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: "CCP Nozh"
The battles will hopefully once again teem with ships of all sizes and makes, giving added weight to strategy and tactics (our very favourites).


If by strategy and tactics you mean: 'Whoever brings the most ships and suffers the least from lag due to that, wins', then you are right.

Raquel Trotter
Trotters Independent Trading
Posted - 2008.07.25 14:00:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Zikka

So is it Gallente or Minmatar who are screwed here? You both seem to think you are.


My comments where a re Minmatar ships.

Originally by: Zikka

There have been several minmatar boosts recently (the torp buff, the change to resists, etc) but of course you ignore those. This change opens up a lot more options, not closing them down, and my rapier will still be plenty useful. I'm a rapier specialist with 3 fully fitted and rigged rapiers out in 0.0 and I still think this is a good idea!



Please explain how the "torp buff" is a boost to minmatar. Yes the resist changes help a little with the only useful T2 projectile ammo, but they also at the same time, nerfed all T2 minmatar ships that use a shield tank, from having one weak sheild resist (kin) to two (kin and expl) at 40%


Stab Wounds
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.07.25 14:02:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Raquel Trotter
Originally by: Zikka

So is it Gallente or Minmatar who are screwed here? You both seem to think you are.


My comments where a re Minmatar ships.

Originally by: Zikka

There have been several minmatar boosts recently (the torp buff, the change to resists, etc) but of course you ignore those. This change opens up a lot more options, not closing them down, and my rapier will still be plenty useful. I'm a rapier specialist with 3 fully fitted and rigged rapiers out in 0.0 and I still think this is a good idea!



Please explain how the "torp buff" is a boost to minmatar. Yes the resist changes help a little with the only useful T2 projectile ammo, but they also at the same time, nerfed all T2 minmatar ships that use a shield tank, from having one weak sheild resist (kin) to two (kin and expl) at 40%




typhoon benefited from torp boost noob

Lui Kai
Better Than You
Posted - 2008.07.25 14:03:00 - [360]
 

Player A figures out something new, and powerful. Player A is the first nano-***. Player A owns a few people, hardcore.

Every other player in the game goes "Hey...Player A figured out something smart. Let's ALL DO THAT!"

7 months pass.

CCP - Okay, this is getting silly. Stop that nonsense.

Everyone cries, "Why does CCP hate origonality! We figured this out!"

Player A starts training Amarr.

Rinse.

Repeat.


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