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Pirate Brinkie
Posted - 2008.07.17 10:00:00 - [31]
 

Now we can see that 80% of this topic who have replied is saying that the pilgrim is the worst Force Recon ship ever, and i know out there are many more who think the same. Is there a possible way that CCP can change things? Or is this just some discussion where noone will listen to?
Thanks

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.07.17 13:47:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Pirate Brinkie
Now we can see that 80% of this topic who have replied is saying that the pilgrim is the worst Force Recon ship ever, and i know out there are many more who think the same. Is there a possible way that CCP can change things? Or is this just some discussion where noone will listen to?
Probably the latter.

Operator One
Posted - 2008.07.18 11:25:00 - [33]
 

well.. u still can solokill ravens in a pilgrim even after teh damp nerf. if not, i guess u gotta work on ur skills..
though ur pretty much limited to the pvp targets u engage due to the damp nerf u gtg for TDs. pilgrim solos a stupid deimos for example... or a cane and so on..

though i got to agree: the pilgrim is the only ship that doesnt receive the range bonus ffs... ?
so its prenerfed..

y? well i guess that is because the ratters have been whining about pilgrims dampening the **** out of their ships - so ccp introduced the famous damp nerf.. if the pilgrim had the range bonus u could again damp the raven far enough and still suck it dry...

conclusion: great damp nerf for nothn.. unnerf damps or set the pilgrim straight...

Jallem Sims
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.07.18 11:57:00 - [34]
 

look, second page in an epically boring thread! its only a matter of time before the threadnaught is brought back to life again... again... again..

Muad' Dib
Gallente
PWNED FACTOR HOLDINGS
Posted - 2008.07.18 12:08:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Lance Fighter
You dont need to nano every ship in the game, kthxbai.

The pilgrim doesnt need a range bonus, and I personally like my TD bonus.


Do you also like the fact that when you engage you are commited to a fight in a 100m isk Recon, the only Recon in this game to do this, and that will negate your Neut advantage, should the target have a cap injector on ?

Pilgrim needs neut range bonus so as to not stay into webb range. Only recon in the game that to be reasonably effective needs to get into webb range, to fight a turret ship, and for the pilot of said turret ship to be a moron, and not do everything to decrease it's transversal.

Operator One
Posted - 2008.07.18 12:27:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Jallem Sims
look, second page in an epically boring thread! its only a matter of time before the threadnaught is brought back to life again... again... again..


the question is:
if it were that boring, y do u bother to read or even post?

Darahk J'olonar
Gallente
Trans Eve Organization
Posted - 2008.07.18 12:59:00 - [37]
 

Pilgrim in a fleet fight is akin to a knife in a gunfight. If you want the whole nano+neut in a fleet use a curse. The Pilgrim is a lone hunter looking for targets of opportunity, no more no less. It also shouldn't be nano'd at all but tanked and setup with full tackle in the mids. It has no choice but to fight in web range so it has to be able to take a few punches to the chin and stay in one piece. Anyway, this has been discussed ad nauseum throughout multiple threads and you are either of the opinion that it's fine as it is or it needs to be fixed.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.07.18 13:29:00 - [38]
 

This is kind of a disappointing topic for me to find: I just started Amarr Cruiser 5.

I've had a lot of success with my Falcon, but it looks like the Pilgrim will be a let-down. Pity - the bonuses look fantastic at first glance.

Ah well, the Curse and the Sac will keep me happy while Lasers train...

Mors Magne
Astral Adventure
Posted - 2008.07.18 13:55:00 - [39]
 

I'm training to fly a Pilgrim... as a PvE exploration ship - to sneak past gate camps to do my exploring in 0.0Exclamation

Of all the Covert Ops cloaking ships, I think it has the best tank and gank (via drones).

However, it never occured to me to use it for PvP, because I think it's very outclassed by the Rapier's stasis webifier range, speed, and agility.

Corduroy Rab
Chaos Reborn
Posted - 2008.07.18 14:54:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 16/07/2008 21:32:53
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Originally by: Pirate Brinkie
Originally by: Lance Fighter
You dont need to nano every ship in the game, kthxbai.

The pilgrim doesnt need a range bonus, and I personally like my TD bonus.


I know that but give me another setup that works for the pilgrim which can survive long enough in fleet battles? The way to do it is nanoing it you dominate the battle then


The pilgrim is not a fleet ship. The pilgrim is the fear of any lone miner in a lowsec/0.0 belt. Using the pilgrim in a fleet fight is suicide, but hey, if you want to throw away money like that, go ahead.

And if you want a setup that survives fleet battles, i give you this:

Highs:
COCD
3x empty slots.
mids:
5x empty slots.
Lows:
5x empty slots.

I guarantee you that will make it out of every fleet battle alive, unless your an idiot.


You realize that pretty much anything is the fear of a lone miner.. right?

EDIT: And the bonuses should be moved around, just not like the OP suggests. I think that the pilgrim should get a 10% bonus to neut range in place of the drone bonus. This would make sense if you look at every other recon pair. It's so stupid that Amarr get screwed with the recons.

To those of you that are sitting there telling me that the Pilgrim, as it stands TODAY, is a useful and good ship... well. I'm sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.


I used to be on the fence about this ship, but the events of last night have taught me otherwise. As it stands pilgrim is a POS, and I don't mean some place to mine moons. Its a close range fighter that can't tank and cant deflect a large amount of damage (missiles) with its ewar.

So what I am saying is nice to see you in another thread Marcus and sign me up for the pilgrim change campaign Razz

Some what random thought just came to me was I was typing this...what if a tracking disruptor "somehow" reduced the flight time and messed with the explosion velocity or radius of missiles? Could be a terrible idea, but eh, figured I'd toss it out.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.07.18 15:38:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Lance Fighter
You dont need to nano every ship in the game, kthxbai.

The pilgrim doesnt need a range bonus, and I personally like my TD bonus.


You do? You also like sucking? Because that ship sucks azz. No if nor buts.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.07.18 15:52:00 - [42]
 

It's odd that the other Force Recons get a range bonus for it's particular ability (web, scram, ECM) but the Pilgrim doesn't.

Excuse my cap-warfare noobness, but I take it that the amount bonus is required to make the Pilgrim worthwhile?

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.07.18 15:59:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
It's odd that the other Force Recons get a range bonus for it's particular ability (web, scram, ECM) but the Pilgrim doesn't.

Excuse my cap-warfare noobness, but I take it that the amount bonus is required to make the Pilgrim worthwhile?


Yes, that is the problem. Because amarr recons are the only recons that have a sized module as ewar it needs strength bonus just to make up for size. Wich means they end up with one less bonus effectively.

Marcus Druallis
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.07.18 16:28:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 18/07/2008 16:30:23
Originally by: Corduroy Rab
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 16/07/2008 21:32:53
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Originally by: Pirate Brinkie
Originally by: Lance Fighter
You dont need to nano every ship in the game, kthxbai.

The pilgrim doesnt need a range bonus, and I personally like my TD bonus.


I know that but give me another setup that works for the pilgrim which can survive long enough in fleet battles? The way to do it is nanoing it you dominate the battle then


The pilgrim is not a fleet ship. The pilgrim is the fear of any lone miner in a lowsec/0.0 belt. Using the pilgrim in a fleet fight is suicide, but hey, if you want to throw away money like that, go ahead.

And if you want a setup that survives fleet battles, i give you this:

Highs:
COCD
3x empty slots.
mids:
5x empty slots.
Lows:
5x empty slots.

I guarantee you that will make it out of every fleet battle alive, unless your an idiot.


You realize that pretty much anything is the fear of a lone miner.. right?

EDIT: And the bonuses should be moved around, just not like the OP suggests. I think that the pilgrim should get a 10% bonus to neut range in place of the drone bonus. This would make sense if you look at every other recon pair. It's so stupid that Amarr get screwed with the recons.

To those of you that are sitting there telling me that the Pilgrim, as it stands TODAY, is a useful and good ship... well. I'm sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.


I used to be on the fence about this ship, but the events of last night have taught me otherwise. As it stands pilgrim is a POS, and I don't mean some place to mine moons. Its a close range fighter that can't tank and cant deflect a large amount of damage (missiles) with its ewar.

So what I am saying is nice to see you in another thread Marcus and sign me up for the pilgrim change campaign Razz

Some what random thought just came to me was I was typing this...what if a tracking disruptor "somehow" reduced the flight time and messed with the explosion velocity or radius of missiles? Could be a terrible idea, but eh, figured I'd toss it out.


Welcome to the light bud :p

Idk if the TD idea is a good one, because it provides too much opportunity to make missiles worse than they already are lol. I mean, the Pilgrim gets hit heavy by them, but it's certainly one of very few cruiser hulls that do. No need to destroy missiles while we fix the Pilgrim.

But yes, the Pilgrim NEEDS to be fixed. It's rediculous how poor it is atm, and it annoys me to no end when people that have obviously no experience with the ship come in and tell everyone how the Pilgrim is the best solo ganker ever in their theories.

EDIT: Also, someone also mentioned how Pilgrim is the only recon to be down one bonus due to the fact that its the only ewar module that is size based and a bonus needs to make up for that. Very true.

To add to that, it is the only ewar module that is countered in most typical pvp fits with a certain module. The cap booster. How many typical pvp fits require eccm? Nothing can really counter a web (yet people still say a ranged pilgrim would be overpowered, lol...) and damps are a whole different story.

Captator
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2008.07.18 16:45:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Malcanis
It's odd that the other Force Recons get a range bonus for it's particular ability (web, scram, ECM) but the Pilgrim doesn't.

Excuse my cap-warfare noobness, but I take it that the amount bonus is required to make the Pilgrim worthwhile?


Yes, that is the problem. Because amarr recons are the only recons that have a sized module as ewar it needs strength bonus just to make up for size. Wich means they end up with one less bonus effectively.


How about a change I proposed in an ideas thread earlier - give the pilgrim 1/2 the range bonus the curse receives, tied up into the neut amount bonus, so it gets sentinel-like nos/neut range? (ie <20km). This way it isn't stepping on the toes of the curse, but has a nice range buffer between operating and web range.

Nomad Storm
The Wandering Path
Posted - 2008.07.18 16:53:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Nomad Storm on 18/07/2008 16:53:32
The pilgrim is not THAT bad. Imo another mid slot or an large increase in recharge rate so that a booster isnt needed would make it fine. It owns any non nanoed t2 cruiser but ishtars (granted there arnt many of those in the nano days Mad). It can tank ravens and dodge the turret fire of ratting battleships.

I dont know why you think limited targets is such a problem or how you can make it seem that the other recons can run around and pwn anything. Tanking the damage of solo recons is not difficult. They all do crap dps but the pilgrim can shut down their tank - anyone that thinks swaping amount for range is an idiot unless they are flying with a blob in which case the nuets dont matter anyway.

Certainly some boosting could be done but I dont believe it is necessary to alter the nature of the ship as a whole. If the pilgrim was to recieve a range bonus I could accept it only if it was limited compared to the curse, <20km. Trading the td bonus for this range also seems stupid to me. Fighting a turret ship without tds would be even worse than going in web range while using them.

Traderboz
SlaveMart
Posted - 2008.07.18 16:56:00 - [47]
 

I tend to agree, I'd rather it get something else besides the curse's range bonus. Still, it needs some sort of boost, and so maybe another slot or some improved stats would suffice.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.07.18 17:02:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Captator


How about a change I proposed in an ideas thread earlier - give the pilgrim 1/2 the range bonus the curse receives, tied up into the neut amount bonus, so it gets sentinel-like nos/neut range? (ie <20km). This way it isn't stepping on the toes of the curse, but has a nice range buffer between operating and web range.


Why should amarr be the only race penaltylized for an inherent design fail of the recon class ships? ALL other force recons basically obsolete their combat recon variants. Why the heck should the amarr one be any different? If the other races arent caring about that design fail why should we and by that get a weaker bonus?

Either you give pilgrim same range bonus as curse or you start slapping the nerfbat on ALL other force recons.

Spermcell Giganticus
Posted - 2008.07.18 17:06:00 - [49]
 

give it a whacking great cap re-charge bonus....gets it back to pre nos-nerf status (nearly)

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.07.18 17:12:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Malcanis
It's odd that the other Force Recons get a range bonus for it's particular ability (web, scram, ECM) but the Pilgrim doesn't.

Excuse my cap-warfare noobness, but I take it that the amount bonus is required to make the Pilgrim worthwhile?


Yes, that is the problem. Because amarr recons are the only recons that have a sized module as ewar it needs strength bonus just to make up for size. Wich means they end up with one less bonus effectively.


I was trying to work out exactly what's different about them and you nailed it.

Oh well, I doubt CCP are about to fix them any time soon, alas.

Maybe I should buy a couple while they're cheap in the hope that they eventually do.

Nomad Storm
The Wandering Path
Posted - 2008.07.18 17:27:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Captator


How about a change I proposed in an ideas thread earlier - give the pilgrim 1/2 the range bonus the curse receives, tied up into the neut amount bonus, so it gets sentinel-like nos/neut range? (ie <20km). This way it isn't stepping on the toes of the curse, but has a nice range buffer between operating and web range.


Why should amarr be the only race penaltylized for an inherent design fail of the recon class ships? ALL other force recons basically obsolete their combat recon variants. Why the heck should the amarr one be any different? If the other races arent caring about that design fail why should we and by that get a weaker bonus?

Either you give pilgrim same range bonus as curse or you start slapping the nerfbat on ALL other force recons.


You fail to take into account that all the force recons are less powerful than their combat varients. The arazu and rapier pay for this with DPS, the pilgrim pays for it with range. Removing drone bonus and adding range would NOT make sense as it is the bonus of its t1 equivilent so dont try it.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.07.18 18:21:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/07/2008 18:23:09
Originally by: Nomad Storm


You fail to take into account that all the force recons are less powerful than their combat varients. The arazu and rapier pay for this with DPS, the pilgrim pays for it with range. Removing drone bonus and adding range would NOT make sense as it is the bonus of its t1 equivilent so dont try it.


Are you serious? Are you kidding me? Are we really playing the same game? That dps loss is laughable at best. All force recons gain huge advantages by being able to cloak and warp cloaked AND being able to use their ewar at same range as their combat recon variant. Sorry you have no valid point.

What pilgrim needs is neut str and range built into the ONE bonus.

Nomad Storm
The Wandering Path
Posted - 2008.07.18 18:41:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/07/2008 18:23:09
Originally by: Nomad Storm


You fail to take into account that all the force recons are less powerful than their combat varients. The arazu and rapier pay for this with DPS, the pilgrim pays for it with range. Removing drone bonus and adding range would NOT make sense as it is the bonus of its t1 equivilent so dont try it.


Are you serious? Are you kidding me? Are we really playing the same game? That dps loss is laughable at best. All force recons gain huge advantages by being able to cloak and warp cloaked AND being able to use their ewar at same range as their combat recon variant. Sorry you have no valid point.

What pilgrim needs is neut str and range built into the ONE bonus.


This would make the curse useless. CCP wont make the pilgrim replace the curse. Find a way to fix it that does not invalidate other ships.

Stabby McStabbins
Posted - 2008.07.18 19:04:00 - [54]
 

If you really think that the Pilgrim needs to be fixed you should check out this thread and vote on it to be looked at by the community reps. You never know.... the Devs may all get stoned and actually do something about it.

-Stabby

Linkage

Marcus Druallis
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.07.18 21:21:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Captator
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Malcanis
It's odd that the other Force Recons get a range bonus for it's particular ability (web, scram, ECM) but the Pilgrim doesn't.

Excuse my cap-warfare noobness, but I take it that the amount bonus is required to make the Pilgrim worthwhile?


Yes, that is the problem. Because amarr recons are the only recons that have a sized module as ewar it needs strength bonus just to make up for size. Wich means they end up with one less bonus effectively.


How about a change I proposed in an ideas thread earlier - give the pilgrim 1/2 the range bonus the curse receives, tied up into the neut amount bonus, so it gets sentinel-like nos/neut range? (ie <20km). This way it isn't stepping on the toes of the curse, but has a nice range buffer between operating and web range.


Works for me.

Marcus Druallis
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.07.18 21:24:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Nomad Storm
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Captator


How about a change I proposed in an ideas thread earlier - give the pilgrim 1/2 the range bonus the curse receives, tied up into the neut amount bonus, so it gets sentinel-like nos/neut range? (ie <20km). This way it isn't stepping on the toes of the curse, but has a nice range buffer between operating and web range.


Why should amarr be the only race penaltylized for an inherent design fail of the recon class ships? ALL other force recons basically obsolete their combat recon variants. Why the heck should the amarr one be any different? If the other races arent caring about that design fail why should we and by that get a weaker bonus?

Either you give pilgrim same range bonus as curse or you start slapping the nerfbat on ALL other force recons.


You fail to take into account that all the force recons are less powerful than their combat varients. The arazu and rapier pay for this with DPS, the pilgrim pays for it with range. Removing drone bonus and adding range would NOT make sense as it is the bonus of its t1 equivilent so dont try it.


Ok. Fixable. Switch drone bonus for range nuet bonus. Done.

Captator
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2008.07.18 22:18:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Ok. Fixable. Switch drone bonus for range nuet bonus. Done.


Can't be done, have to keep the t1 hull bonuses.

The other option could be all the other combat recons getting a double bonus in one like the curses amount/range bonus - huginn gets webrange (as now) and web strength (like marauders), lachesis gets point range (as now) and point strength or damp range?, rook gets jam optimal (as now) and sensor strength?

This would put the current pilgrim bonuses into line, and might see rooks and lachesis restored to the field.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.07.18 22:37:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Captator
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Ok. Fixable. Switch drone bonus for range nuet bonus. Done.


Can't be done, have to keep the t1 hull bonuses.

The other option could be all the other combat recons getting a double bonus in one like the curses amount/range bonus - huginn gets webrange (as now) and web strength (like marauders), lachesis gets point range (as now) and point strength or damp range?, rook gets jam optimal (as now) and sensor strength?

This would put the current pilgrim bonuses into line, and might see rooks and lachesis restored to the field.


Rook can plx haz extra lock range not strengths plx kthx?

Captator
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2008.07.18 22:41:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Captator on 18/07/2008 22:43:09
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Captator
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Ok. Fixable. Switch drone bonus for range nuet bonus. Done.


Can't be done, have to keep the t1 hull bonuses.

The other option could be all the other combat recons getting a double bonus in one like the curses amount/range bonus - huginn gets webrange (as now) and web strength (like marauders), lachesis gets point range (as now) and point strength or damp range?, rook gets jam optimal (as now) and sensor strength?

This would put the current pilgrim bonuses into line, and might see rooks and lachesis restored to the field.


Rook can plx haz extra lock range not strengths plx kthx?


It already has 187.5km with long range targetting 5 Shocked, how much more do you want? One unscripted sensor booster t2 takes that to 243.75km ShockedShocked

edit: rationale behind it, is if it has say 10% sensor strength per level, it is very hard to counter jam. Of course this does leave the scorpion somewhat trailing in the dust...

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.07.18 22:58:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Nomad Storm


This would make the curse useless. CCP wont make the pilgrim replace the curse. Find a way to fix it that does not invalidate other ships.


Welcome to the world of broken ship classes: Recons. Falcon OBSOLETES rook. Arazu OBSOLETES lachesis. Either you fix that first or you dont give a damn about fixing that and fix pilgrim the way I said. Right now it is just a lame excuse to not give pilgrim range.


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