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Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.07.12 22:32:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran
Originally by: P'uck
Originally by: Reiisha
Can someone explain to me how exactly securom is bad?

It makes you insert DVDs/CDs like a trained monkey for gratification?

If I BOUGHT it (and I usually pay for stuff I play) I want the right to use it without any restrictions. Am I being a *****? Maybe. But after all I work pretty hard for my money and I don't want to be ****ed with, when I spend it.

Unless we're talking hookers.


All this fuss is about having to put a DVD in your PC to play the game?

Call me stupid (and someone will) but isnt that how games work? I always put CDs in to play the games I want.


In this case you don't even need that. ME doesn't require the DVD in the drive at all after installation. Its just that you're limited to 3 installs. (on 3 different system granted, but still only 3!)

Zaphroid Eulthran
Minmatar
Imperial Visions
Posted - 2008.07.12 22:41:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Meiyang Lee
Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran

All this fuss is about having to put a DVD in your PC to play the game?

Call me stupid (and someone will) but isnt that how games work? I always put CDs in to play the games I want.


In this case you don't even need that. ME doesn't require the DVD in the drive at all after installation. Its just that you're limited to 3 installs. (on 3 different system granted, but still only 3!)


It limits the number of installations you can run off the disk you purchase? Ok that is wrong I see the reason for the fuss.

You all now have my official permission to continue ranting.

Remata Lakira
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.07.12 22:56:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Remata Lakira on 12/07/2008 22:56:04
I don't even care about it anymore.

They made it too cartoony.
They took too long developing it.
They put anti-paying customer software on it.

They sabotaged their own product before it had even hit the shelves.

Dantes Revenge
Caldari
Posted - 2008.07.13 05:21:00 - [34]
 

The 3 PC limit isn't an issue if it really is 3 PC's and you could reinstall as many times as you need to on any one of them. What nags at me is that the limit is applied to the number of times it can be installed period.

Technically, you can de-register the key so you can re-install but honestly, how many times have you uninstalled a game because the OS has gone south. When the OS crashes, there's no way to get into it to de-register the key for the game so you've lost an install. Let's face it, Windows is not the most stable of available OS's and I've had my fair share of boot failures that can only be solved by a re-install. I've just installed Vista a month ago and already the firewall is shot away, the service won't start and it appears the registry entries are corrupt. M$ official answer - reinstall. My official answer - Third party firewallRazz

I really think a lot of people are going to vote with their feet on this one. The people I feel sorry for are those who don't yet know about it and also those who will buy from the shop, not realising you have to be on the net to register the install before you can play it. If they are not on the internet at home they are done for, some shops won't allow you to return software. You can bet it won't say on the box that you have to be on the internet simply because, technically it isn't an online game.

All of the major copy protections have been cracked including Securom so this fiasco is little more than giving their customers the finger. So many big companies have done a Microsoft and thought they were too big to be affected. Companies like EA are going to find it comes back to bite them in the a$$ pretty quick when one of their majore releases ends up gathering dust on the shelves.

Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Posted - 2008.07.13 05:57:00 - [35]
 

yeah tbh, i bought the creature creator kit, its nifty enough, but after reading this ****, i doubt i will purchase spore

Fraszoid
Caldari
Healthcare for Space Hermits
Posted - 2008.07.13 05:58:00 - [36]
 

So far all the games I've gotten only have CD Keys to activate them. I've heard the stories about theses DRM implementations, and them getting cracked so I was wondering, how hard it is to replicate a piece of hardware, like an encrypted USB Stick.

As I understand it, they are getting pretty cheap, and surely its possible to encode something that makes the game run on it, and ship with the game. So you install the game, and just have to plug in the stick to run the game. That way its not easily cracked as the information is encoded on the actual stick, and not in an copyable files.

Would that work, or is my idea fundamentally flawed?

Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Posted - 2008.07.13 06:13:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Fraszoid
So far all the games I've gotten only have CD Keys to activate them. I've heard the stories about theses DRM implementations, and them getting cracked so I was wondering, how hard it is to replicate a piece of hardware, like an encrypted USB Stick.

As I understand it, they are getting pretty cheap, and surely its possible to encode something that makes the game run on it, and ship with the game. So you install the game, and just have to plug in the stick to run the game. That way its not easily cracked as the information is encoded on the actual stick, and not in an copyable files.

Would that work, or is my idea fundamentally flawed?


this is what they do with certain types of programs, I know Lightwave 3d, a program for doing 3d modeling and animation, uses such technology (they refer to the USB stick as a dongle) And has been cracked with relative ease, as if ircc, the first cracked copies of lightwave 8 started appearing within a month of realease.

Elysarian
Minmatar
Elysarian Corp
Posted - 2008.07.13 09:15:00 - [38]
 

This thread is flawed on one vital point:

I had the exact same problem as the OP on the EA board -

1. When you download the Creature Creator for the first time you don't have to type in an activation key.

2. If you have to reinstall (for whatever reason) then it asks for a "CD Key", this is emailed to you when you register & (in some cases) end up in the "junk" email folder of your email client, this is also where it says "If you do not have a valid CD key, you will need to repurchase this software" or similar.

This is NOT a SecuROM issue - it's a user error.

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.07.13 09:39:00 - [39]
 

You know...

You can simply buy the game AND download the crack.

Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.07.13 09:53:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Reiisha
You know...

You can simply buy the game AND download the crack.


Which what I've done, best solution really. No install used, and a legal game to play.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.13 10:38:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Fraszoid
So far all the games I've gotten only have CD Keys to activate them. I've heard the stories about theses DRM implementations, and them getting cracked so I was wondering, how hard it is to replicate a piece of hardware, like an encrypted USB Stick.

As I understand it, they are getting pretty cheap, and surely its possible to encode something that makes the game run on it, and ship with the game. So you install the game, and just have to plug in the stick to run the game. That way its not easily cracked as the information is encoded on the actual stick, and not in an copyable files.

Would that work, or is my idea fundamentally flawed?


The only real flaw with the idea is assuming that, if it is on a USB stick, it's not a copyable (and thus crackable) set of files. When you plug a USB stick in to your computer, it essentially becomes as much a part of your computer as a CD in the CD drive or a file on your hard disk. In order for your computer to interact with it in any way, it needs to be able to read the data on the stick (that is, it needs to be able to access whatever encryption key or similar is on the stick).

The only thing stopping you simply copying the files on the stick and doing what you like with them is whatever encryption is applied. In this way, a USB stick has almost no advantages to doing exactly the same thing on a CD (which is what almost all modern computer programs do anyway, by making you put the CD in the drive every time you use the software). The only advantage that I can think of is that USB sticks are easier to write to, allowing you to store some of the user's registration details on the stick, giving an extra layer of verification checks.

To put it simply, there's no ground-breaking advantage to doing this with a USB stick instead of doing it with a CD, or with any other storage medium you'd care to mention. Some software packages choose to use USB sticks as "keys" for logistical reasons, but there's no fundamental difference between doing this with a USB drive or doing it with a CD, as people have been doing for decades.

Elysarian
Minmatar
Elysarian Corp
Posted - 2008.07.13 11:16:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Fraszoid
So far all the games I've gotten only have CD Keys to activate them. I've heard the stories about theses DRM implementations, and them getting cracked so I was wondering, how hard it is to replicate a piece of hardware, like an encrypted USB Stick.

As I understand it, they are getting pretty cheap, and surely its possible to encode something that makes the game run on it, and ship with the game. So you install the game, and just have to plug in the stick to run the game. That way its not easily cracked as the information is encoded on the actual stick, and not in an copyable files.

Would that work, or is my idea fundamentally flawed?


The only real flaw with the idea is assuming that, if it is on a USB stick, it's not a copyable (and thus crackable) set of files. When you plug a USB stick in to your computer, it essentially becomes as much a part of your computer as a CD in the CD drive or a file on your hard disk. In order for your computer to interact with it in any way, it needs to be able to read the data on the stick (that is, it needs to be able to access whatever encryption key or similar is on the stick).

The only thing stopping you simply copying the files on the stick and doing what you like with them is whatever encryption is applied. In this way, a USB stick has almost no advantages to doing exactly the same thing on a CD (which is what almost all modern computer programs do anyway, by making you put the CD in the drive every time you use the software). The only advantage that I can think of is that USB sticks are easier to write to, allowing you to store some of the user's registration details on the stick, giving an extra layer of verification checks.

To put it simply, there's no ground-breaking advantage to doing this with a USB stick instead of doing it with a CD, or with any other storage medium you'd care to mention. Some software packages choose to use USB sticks as "keys" for logistical reasons, but there's no fundamental difference between doing this with a USB drive or doing it with a CD, as people have been doing for decades.


A Dongle does not necessarily have to have "data" on it in the normal sense of the word.

I work in the CCTV and Access Control industries and there is extensive use of older (Parallell) and newer (USB mainly) Dongles - most require the installation of a driver to access the device - meaning that there is more than just storage on there (the older type was sometimes just a set of close tolerance resistors that were read by the parallell interface through an A/D convertor) - some modern ones have microcontrollers built in to do processing tasks (generating hash keys?).

tl/dr? - there's more to a Dongle than there is to a USB memory stick.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.13 12:03:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Elysarian

A Dongle does not necessarily have to have "data" on it in the normal sense of the word.

... meaning that there is more than just storage on there (the older type was sometimes just a set of close tolerance resistors that were read by the parallell interface through an A/D convertor) - some modern ones have microcontrollers built in to do processing tasks (generating hash keys?).

tl/dr? - there's more to a Dongle than there is to a USB memory stick.


And what exactly do you think "data" is? It's all, to call up an old adage, ones and zeroes in the end. Whether your ones and zeroes form the extremely complex arrangements necessary to play Doom2 in nightmare mode, or are just a series of mechanical on/off switch gates, they're still data.

You're right that USB dongles don't necessarily involve any solid-state memory (in the same way as USB storage sticks), but it's still just a way of conveying the necessary ones and zeroes to the computer which allow a program to be authorised (or whatever else you might design a dongle to do). It really doesn't matter if your device is solid state memory, mechanical switches, close tolerance resistors, optical disks or a series of well trained bees, as long as it's just a way of conveying a piece of data to your computer. Of course it may be easier to encrypt bees than it is a series of mechanical switches, but thats just the specifics.

Aloriana Jacques
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2008.07.13 12:12:00 - [44]
 

This is why I love the Stardock company to pieces. They are the current pioneers against piracy-proofing games. A few developers have fallen behind them, but more need to do it.

Though I think the first step for a lot of devs will be to get away from EA, which some are actually doing.

DarthGeddes
Caldari
Fallen Angel's
Blade.
Posted - 2008.07.13 12:26:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Aloriana Jacques
This is why I love the Stardock company to pieces. They are the current pioneers against piracy-proofing games. A few developers have fallen behind them, but more need to do it.

Though I think the first step for a lot of devs will be to get away from EA, which some are actually doing.


Stardock FTW! I can actually play my legally purchased game on my legally purchased OS on my legally purchased computer with my legal brother! YARRRR!!

nahtoh
Caldari
Brotherhood of The Saltire
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2008.07.13 21:49:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran
Originally by: Meiyang Lee
Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran

All this fuss is about having to put a DVD in your PC to play the game?

Call me stupid (and someone will) but isnt that how games work? I always put CDs in to play the games I want.


In this case you don't even need that. ME doesn't require the DVD in the drive at all after installation. Its just that you're limited to 3 installs. (on 3 different system granted, but still only 3!)


It limits the number of installations you can run off the disk you purchase? Ok that is wrong I see the reason for the fuss.

You all now have my official permission to continue ranting.



Meh its not just that, the game will refuse to run with certain software (totaly legal software as well) with that crappy DRM **** on your system as well.

nahtoh
Caldari
Brotherhood of The Saltire
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2008.07.13 21:54:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Reiisha
You know...

You can simply buy the game AND download the crack.


It also rewards them for being *******s...honestly the more they pull this **** the fewer games I buy...Yea I may be depriving myself of x amount of hours gameplay abd enjoyment but TBH far to many games that should not have went gold where it takes x amount of patches to fix bugs (or issues never fixed) and they expect you to PAY FULL PRICE for games where they on purpose limit the amount times you can install it?


**** them, the horse they rode in on, family members back a couple of genertions and **** ther desendents.

Dmian
Gallente
Gallenterrorisme
Posted - 2008.07.13 22:34:00 - [48]
 

The biggest problem most MMORPGs face is: how do we know users are not manipulating the client?
CCP for example do a checksum on the Eve client.
Other, like Trackmania use more restrictive software (Starforce) to verify the client is not being manipulated.
Most developers need to guarantee a certain level of fairness and try to make sure that you're not using some kind of external help to gain advantage of the game.
I prefer the approach CCP uses more than any DRM other companies use, because is cleaner, simpler and not invasive. The other methods will only give you problems in the long term. The problem is that more and more companies think DRM is the way to go to protect their digital assets. To the point that Windows Vista is full of DRM mechanisms to protect multimedia content, specially movies (one of the reasons I'm not going to follow the BluRay movement.)

And when you realize that the copyright laws were created to protect the author and now are used to protect the distributors... well, that makes you think.

In the case of CCP, I'm proud of them, publishing it themselves. I'm sure that the money I spend goes directly to the company and not some lame distributor.

DarthGeddes
Caldari
Fallen Angel's
Blade.
Posted - 2008.07.14 01:24:00 - [49]
 

Securom = No.

Linkage

Robert Lewis
Posted - 2008.07.14 04:20:00 - [50]
 

I never did play X3 because of StarForce. So I know of at least one sale lost due to the copy protection. (me)
Shame Spore has to go this way too, I was looking forward to it, though I got Mass Effect for the 360 so I at least got to play it.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2008.07.14 04:27:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Robert Lewis
I never did play X3 because of StarForce. So I know of at least one sale lost due to the copy protection. (me)


I didn't buy that til it came out on Steam Confused

Zeon Mackie
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2008.07.14 04:39:00 - [52]
 

Copy protection doesnt bother me much, so long as it doesnt hinder my playing experience.

The only issue with spore I'll have is the vast number of planets with phallic shaped creatures...Wink

Haskear
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.07.14 08:20:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Remata Lakira
Edited by: Remata Lakira on 12/07/2008 22:56:04
I don't even care about it anymore.

They made it too cartoony.
They took too long developing it.
They put anti-paying customer software on it.

They sabotaged their own product before it had even hit the shelves.


Agreed in full, screw it and EA.

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.07.14 14:38:00 - [54]
 

Quote:
If you are forced to reinstall the OS or make to many hardware changes it will deduct another install and so on until all 3 have been used. At that point the game becomes unusable.


Simply sounds like something I will ever pay for...

Dantes Revenge
Caldari
Posted - 2008.07.14 15:51:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 14/07/2008 15:53:55
Originally by: Elysarian
This thread is flawed on one vital point:

I had the exact same problem as the OP on the EA board -

1. When you download the Creature Creator for the first time you don't have to type in an activation key.

2. If you have to reinstall (for whatever reason) then it asks for a "CD Key", this is emailed to you when you register & (in some cases) end up in the "junk" email folder of your email client, this is also where it says "If you do not have a valid CD key, you will need to repurchase this software" or similar.

This is NOT a SecuROM issue - it's a user error.

Try reading the rest of the forum like I did. I thought the same thing and went searching for more info about it. A lot of people on the Spore forums are saying about the 3 install limit. Link From previous post in the same thread. There are many more like this and notice that EA created a thread titled "Spore Copy Protection Q & A" but apart from the first and only post, have yet to answer one question in a thread that has now reached 8 pages.

If you have ever played Mass Effect, you will already know about the 3 installs limit placed on it by Securom and not by any CD key. Spore is to be shipped with the same protection method as Mass Effect.

If you feel that there is nothing bad about this protection method or that it is a "user error", go ahead and buy the game. I started this thread as a warning both to those who already know about the Securom 3 install limit from Mass Effect and to others who showed interest in Spore some time ago in this forum. If you buy it and get burned, don't say you weren't warned.

I still have my ORIGINAL copies of Elite Frontier and First Encounters and still play them from time to time on an old DOS PC. Frontier Developments has ceased all support for these games but I can still play them. If Spore has a 3 install limit, what happens when the limit is reached after all support has ended? Simple, put the DVD disk on the table, it has become the latest addition to your coaster collection.

Edit: typo.


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