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Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
Posted - 2008.06.28 00:08:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Uilliam Nebel on 28/06/2008 00:09:06
In regards to all the post, regardless of the loyalties, which seem to be coming up lately. Where one expresses his commitment to one side or another in this war which has befallen the cluster. And then goes into that individuals, sometimes along with his corporations, intent to wage shear bloody murder on their declared enemy.

We get it. We all get it. We know you want to kill one another. And that you are mad and justified for this reason, or that reason, or no reason at all.

So please, unless you have little more to say then going on about how justified you'll be to do this. Or how you get an 'evil' smile with the idea of seeing your enemies blood. Or how you, and the rest of the [insert race here] will slaughter everyone of [insert race here]. Then don't.

I'm sorry but the cheap nationalist, sometimes racist, babble is getting a bit thick and tiresome.

War is tragedy enough, it doesn't need the company of pathetic attempts to try and make it heroic, noble, or fun.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.28 01:52:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Uilliam Nebel
We get it. We all get it. We know you want to kill one another.


Speak for yourself. Personally, I'd rather not kill, but it's either kill people who treat death as a temporary annoyance, or allow them to kill people I care about who don't have the luxury of serial reanimation.

so, no, I don't want to kill. I have to. Big difference.

Natalia Duraldi
Gallente
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2008.06.28 01:55:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Uilliam Nebel
We get it. We all get it. We know you want to kill one another.


Speak for yourself. Personally, I'd rather not kill, but it's either kill people who treat death as a temporary annoyance, or allow them to kill people I care about who don't have the luxury of serial reanimation.

so, no, I don't want to kill. I have to. Big difference.



/signed

Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
Posted - 2008.06.28 02:35:00 - [4]
 

Did either of you write a post on how you were going to go out and wage violence on other people? Then give a reason of justification? And then top it off with blind nationalism or and racism?

Vaden Khale
Amarr
Damnation Angels
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.06.28 03:05:00 - [5]
 

*Vaden slowly sits from his bunk in dry dock in Sinq Laison, disturbed by another exchange over the comms channel that met his filtered criteria for topics of interest. Yet another comms thread to be responded to...*

I'm sorry, but your angst at the declarations of hate are meaningless. PIE, CVA, and others, including myself, hate the Ushra'Khan, the Heretic Militia, and other Minmatar factions that desire spilt Amarrian blood. The declarations are meaningless, simply human rationale to vent the anger we fill towards each side. The declarations are meaningless. It is the actions we produce after the declarations that matter. To we capsuleers, death is meaningless. Till we grow tired of the neural transmissions and retire our clones, we will never die and leave this fight. All we ever accomplish is destroying the crewmen inhabiting our ships. Thousands of brave souls dying each day to further the goal of some faction, heedless of their own deaths. These brave men and women, regardless of faction, deserve our respect. So forgive me if I call your tirade against the capsuleer community's war disrespectful and petulant. You somehow passed the screening to enter a pod in the first place. Show a little maturity.


Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
Posted - 2008.06.28 03:43:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Vaden Khale
I'm sorry, but your angst at the declarations of hate are meaningless. PIE, CVA, and others, including myself, hate the Ushra'Khan, the Heretic Militia, and other Minmatar factions that desire spilt Amarrian blood. The declarations are meaningless, simply human rationale to vent the anger we fill towards each side. The declarations are meaningless. It is the actions we produce after the declarations that matter. To we capsuleers, death is meaningless. Till we grow tired of the neural transmissions and retire our clones, we will never die and leave this fight. All we ever accomplish is destroying the crewmen inhabiting our ships. Thousands of brave souls dying each day to further the goal of some faction, heedless of their own deaths. These brave men and women, regardless of faction, deserve our respect. So forgive me if I call your tirade against the capsuleer community's war disrespectful and petulant. You somehow passed the screening to enter a pod in the first place. Show a little maturity.



How does saying I am tired of capsuleers going on with the same rhetoric disrespecting the crews of ships?

How is saying that there is a lot of destructive nationalism running about, fueled by a fair amount of racial hatred immature?

Disrespectful and petulant? Because I'm bothered with the idea that a war has broken out, and people are carrying on like propaganda ministers as they all try and make it their noble effort?

Why the maturity remark at the end however? Nothing shows you believe less in the strength of your argument like making a comment toward the other person and not what they are saying.

Was that all trying to seem wise, by hiding behind a layer of obscurity?

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari
Project Daedalid
Posted - 2008.06.28 04:09:00 - [7]
 

Perhaps your words would be seen as more productive, respectful and wise if you were not yourself waging war. It is easy to stand amongst the chaos and say "see, you are barbarians" while you yourself proudly support your Empire. You kill, you murder, in the name of your people, yet you find it distasteful when others put words to exactly what it is you do.

This is a place of debate, a place to voice one's thoughts. If you silence one voice because you find it distasteful, where does it end? Even a voice of anger has a right to be heard, just as you have a right to voice outrage over it.

Gottii
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.06.28 04:44:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Even a voice of anger has a right to be heard, just as you have a right to voice outrage over it.


Amarrians as a culture generally dont recognize the rights of others. If you don't recognize a person's right to live life free from slavery, you're certainly not going to respect someones right to speak their mind.

Agustus Caesar
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.28 05:00:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Agustus Caesar on 28/06/2008 05:04:21
Aren't you the same guy who not too long ago declared your unending hate for the Minmatar race based on the reaction of Minmatar in the Republic to the news of the "Elder Fleet" attacks?

Reference:
Originally by: Uilliam Nebel
Sorry, my patience has just run out with you all playing your usual 'were such victims' game. Listen, you started a war with a pre-emptive strike, more to boot, you started it by slaughtering people of a neutral third party to do it. (You know, that whole CONCORD station you blew up.) So please excuse my shortness for your 'theatrics' at the moment. As you have lost what ever 'victim' status you had with those actions.

By the way, good job on screwing your allies the Gallente. Why with your attack on the CONCORD station, that brought down their network, it is you whom made the rapid Caldari operation to take back their home planet possible. So even though your hands are all ready a bit red, you can put the blood of thousands of Gallente on their as well. Good work Matari, with allies like you I'm sure the Gallente will go far. (Next time, you may wanna share details like that with a military ally, just a thought.)

So, that out of the way. Would one of you mind picking up a 'package' I left on Matar during my recent trip there? Thanks.


Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
Posted - 2008.06.28 05:21:00 - [10]
 

As much as Pilot Gottii's views dont entirely agree with mine in respect to Amarrians in general, he does have a point of sorts. If you are not willing to accept that others have differing views than yourself, and work to reconcile those views, all you do is perpetuate a state of affairs where only a single point of view ends up being viable. This comes about when those of differing points of view fight it out to see who's viewpoint is left. (Note that I dont necessarily say the victor is right, just that he and his viewpoint are whats left.)

It is human nature to trumpet our ethics and ideals and our justifications to others, for if we dont, they cannot see how justified we are. And that would ruin the whole need for justification in the first place.

I myself am not one to call for slaughter and rampant death, as I believe that God did not intend for us to kill and maim each other. Its a pity that Man has free will. Its would be even worse if he didnt, though.

Those that have allowed themselves to be subjugated by their hate and anger are no less slaves than those slaves that labor for their Masters in the Empire. Their chains are no less real than the shackles that bind the slaves in the Empire. The only difference is that those that are slaves to their negative emotions, they chose that path for themselves. Thats what is terrible about free will, we, each of us can CHOOSE self destruction. The glorious thing about free will is that we can CHOOSE to redeem ourselves as well, though it seems that precious few choose to do so.

I am no priest or prophet, or even a theologian, but I would think that God would look kindly upon anyone that would attempt to reason with or aid those that have fallen victim to themselves. So please Lord Nebel, do not rail against them for simply speaking out, rail against the acts they advocate. Attempt to aid them in healing themselves, and perhaps to bring them from the dark pit of hate and destruction they live in. Redeem them in the way that God intended, body, mind and soul. (No, enslavement is NOT PART OF THAT PROCESS)

Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
Posted - 2008.06.28 12:36:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
This is a place of debate, a place to voice one's thoughts. If you silence one voice because you find it distasteful, where does it end? Even a voice of anger has a right to be heard, just as you have a right to voice outrage over it.


Fair point, if I was calling for an end of the war and peace by any means. But I'm not. I understand why we are locked in this conflict, and that things have come to this. Such is the sad repeating of human history.

But my issue is not the war here, but the general babble which is being spouted about it. I, the insignificant one soldier I am, go get in my pod. I go do my job in this war. I know I'm working to cause the death of others, and they will be looking to cause mine and my comrades. And thats all there really is to it.

Yet I am constantly seeing rhetoric here, and many trying to make this a 'good' war for their side were they are the 'good' guys. You say this is a place for debate, fine, but how do you debate what amounts to little more then propaganda or racial stereotyping? The real causes and reasons for this war seem to have been completely pushed aside, and all one sees our many capsuleers personal vendettas or reaching for glory.

Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
Posted - 2008.06.28 12:41:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Agustus Caesar
Aren't you the same guy who not too long ago declared your unending hate for the Minmatar race


Show exactly where I said that.

Being tired of the justified victim rationality that many Matari put behind acts of agression is not a pledge of hatred on anyone. It is stating your tired of their clearly irrational banter, or worse yet efforts to mislead other Matari to believing something which is clearly untrue.

I completely still stand behind that statement.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.28 12:55:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Uilliam Nebel
Did either of you write a post on how you were going to go out and wage violence on other people? Then give a reason of justification? And then top it off with blind nationalism or and racism?


Nope, it's pretty much all been the same tune the whole time for me. I love the Caldari people, and the current political situation means that I must fight on their behalf, or else outside military forces will enter our territory and annex it. (I'm not blaming anyone here, I'm just stating fact)

I refuse to fight for the Amarr because I do not agree with their stance on slavery, and I will not fight for the Gallente or Minmatar because they are the people who are actively trying to attack and kill Caldari citizens (as is natural in a war). Similarly, I refuse to abstain from this war, because doing so would directly compromise the State's defenses in a small way.

Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
Posted - 2008.06.28 13:04:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
Nope, it's pretty much all been the same tune the whole time for me. I love the Caldari people, and the current political situation means that I must fight on their behalf, or else outside military forces will enter our territory and annex it. (I'm not blaming anyone here, I'm just stating fact)

I refuse to fight for the Amarr because I do not agree with their stance on slavery, and I will not fight for the Gallente or Minmatar because they are the people who are actively trying to attack and kill Caldari citizens (as is natural in a war). Similarly, I refuse to abstain from this war, because doing so would directly compromise the State's defenses in a small way.


Well, why would you have thought my original words applied to you? I did not say all those discussing the war, and believe I narrowed it down to a specific banter which has been taking place. So I am a bit confused how you could have identified my words against race baiting, a fascist level of nationalism, and just flat out propaganda toward anything you have been saying.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.28 13:09:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Uilliam Nebel
Well, why would you have thought my original words applied to you?


I didn't. In fact, I vigorously denied their applicability. Your original statement was phrased as an open-ended broadcast to all pilots, however, and I responded accordingly.

Maybe I'm getting paranoid in my old age, but it seemed to me at the time that you were directly accusing everybody who has joined the militias of their home nations of being bloodthirsty warmongers without any real valid reason for doing what we do. If that was a misinterpretation, I apologize.

Kitoba
Minmatar
Legion of Dynamic Discord
Posted - 2008.06.28 13:43:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
I refuse to fight for the Amarr because I do not agree with their stance on slavery, and I will not fight for the Gallente or Minmatar because they are the people who are actively trying to attack and kill Caldari citizens (as is natural in a war).

We are fighting you not because we'd want to kill any Caldari, but because
a) your government is in bed with the Empire
b) you are fighting a war of aggression over a piece of rock.

Personally, I don't really care for point b. You can have that piece of rock. But still, we will not tolerate anybody supporting the empire's atrocities. This is a thing the Caldari need to sort out for themselves: Change you ideals, or change your friends.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.28 13:47:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Kitoba
We are fighting you not because we'd want to kill any Caldari, but because
a) your government is in bed with the Empire
b) you are fighting a war of aggression over a piece of rock.


I was trying to avoid dragging the usual blame-laying and finger-pointing into this thread. For the moment, I don't care how, why or what we are at war over, just that we are at war, and that the culture I was raised in and continue to admire despite having tasted the others is at threat from foreign soldiers.

Kitoba
Minmatar
Legion of Dynamic Discord
Posted - 2008.06.28 14:24:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Kitoba
We are fighting you not because we'd want to kill any Caldari, but because
a) your government is in bed with the Empire
b) you are fighting a war of aggression over a piece of rock.


I was trying to avoid dragging the usual blame-laying and finger-pointing into this thread. For the moment, I don't care how, why or what we are at war over, just that we are at war, and that the culture I was raised in and continue to admire despite having tasted the others is at threat from foreign soldiers.

Well, I just wanted to point out that we're not actively trying to attack and kill Caldari citizens. We are actively attacking Caldari forces on our own turf, and send small scout troops into Caldari space, which seem to get mistaken as invading forces. We are not invading. Otherwise, you'd be left with a maximum of 20 Systems now, like the Amarr.

The only thing that is at threat from us, Stitcher, is your alignment with the Amarr. Not more, not less.

Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
Posted - 2008.06.28 14:51:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Kitoba
We are not invading. Otherwise, you'd be left with a maximum of 20 Systems now, like the Amarr.


That was a rather clumsy attempt to draw off Caldari pilots from their front, and have them move to the Amarr and Matari one. I'd encourage the Caldari to not draw away from their homelands more pressing conflict with the Gallente. And to keep up the unified effort they have been waging.

Yes, things on the Amarr front have not been so well. Yes, we are not in the best of situations at the moment. But despite some peoples predictions, this war has only just begun, and will be going on a very long time. And so far the only people truly winning are those selling new ships and fittings.

Kitoba
Minmatar
Legion of Dynamic Discord
Posted - 2008.06.29 03:07:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Uilliam Nebel
Originally by: Kitoba
We are not invading. Otherwise, you'd be left with a maximum of 20 Systems now, like the Amarr.
That was a rather clumsy attempt to draw off Caldari pilots from their front, and have them move to the Amarr and Matari one.
You'd like to see that, don't you? It would explain why you're bending my words to your intend.

It is a very great Empire indeed that needs Caldari as mercenaries.

Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
Posted - 2008.06.29 15:09:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Uilliam Nebel on 29/06/2008 20:52:44
Originally by: Kitoba
Originally by: Uilliam Nebel
Originally by: Kitoba
We are not invading. Otherwise, you'd be left with a maximum of 20 Systems now, like the Amarr.
That was a rather clumsy attempt to draw off Caldari pilots from their front, and have them move to the Amarr and Matari one.
You'd like to see that, don't you? It would explain why you're bending my words to your intend.

It is a very great Empire indeed that needs Caldari as mercenaries.


Ha Ha Ha Ha, where did you come up with that? But thank you for the laugh.

That was about the most pathetic attempt to try a spin on someones words I have ever seen. But to just address the idea in that comment. I'm not some drunk Gallente date where when I say no it really means yes. And I think it was phrased crystal clear. The Caldari should keep up their effective effort on their front. Despite set backs on our own Amarrian front, it has only been three weeks. Any person talking of any side having a firm grasp on victory at this point is playing propaganda, or suffering from a delusional state. This war is no where near finished, and will be going on a very long time. Therefore Caldari pilots should feel no critical need to deploy to the Amarrian front, and should continue fighting the war effort for the State as their Militia commanders need.

As for the attempt to enflame with the Empire and mercenary comment.

It must be a great Republic that has to launch a sneak attack where the first victims slaughtered are a neutral third party. You know, those couple of thousand people, some of them Matari, that your Elder fleet killed to bring down the CONCORD network.

Karanth
Gallente
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2008.06.30 19:31:00 - [22]
 

Are you seriously attempting to paint CONCORD as an innocent party? If anything, they are the least innocent among all of metahumanity. Their JOB is to stand against anything that would threaten peace, according to them, so they are the best people to die first.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.30 19:37:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Karanth
Are you seriously attempting to paint CONCORD as an innocent party? If anything, they are the least innocent among all of metahumanity. Their JOB is to stand against anything that would threaten peace, according to them, so they are the best people to die first.


I don't see the word "innocent" anywhere in his statement. He said "neutral". Big difference.

I happened to nod in agreement when Keitan Yun voiced his discontent with the Assembly. CONCORD has been in a position for years to effect considerable influence upon the four nations, and thereby work for true interstellar peace. Instead what they wound up doing was to preserve the status quo, even to the extent of ignoring those factors of the status quo that jeopardized the future stability of the galaxy.

Despite this failure, I do believe that CONCORD is still a highly necessary force in the universe. It stands as the wall that keeps us all from going insane.

And just maybe, they'll have learned the value of redundant systems. You wouldn't think that the most sophisticated peacekeeping agency in the world would operate solely out of a single comparatively vulnerable structure, would you? Whatever happened to distributed, redundant systems with backup arrays?

BloodBird
Nova Foundry
Posted - 2008.06.30 19:50:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Uilliam Nebel
It must be a great Republic that has to launch a sneak attack where the first victims slaughtered are a neutral third party. You know, those couple of thousand people, some of them Matari, that your Elder fleet killed to bring down the CONCORD network.


The Elder fleet did. not the Republic. there is a world of diffrence between the two. The Minmatar of the Republic ignorantly cheered because what they saw was a Minmatar fleet ravage the Empire, something I suspect many had hoped for for years, perhaps their entire lives.

Taking down the CONCORD for a while was a needed step to effect that invasion. I do not agree with it happening, but I do agree that if anyone was to invade anyone as things stood just before the war started, then CONCORD had to be neutralized, at least for the moment. And they were.

Incidentaly, this also allowed Heth to steal Federation property, but that is another story.

Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
Posted - 2008.07.01 01:38:00 - [25]
 

Indeed, Pilot Bloodbird. In order to effect an invasion of any Empire, Concord had to be dealt with first. I am only surprised that they were down for as long ass they were. Surely this was a contingency that there was a plan for? Was part of the plan to leave the security of New Eden compromised for so long? Surely there were back-up relays and communications nodes that would have been functional if the primary node failed (as in "its been blown to hell along with the station its in")?

BloodBird
Nova Foundry
Posted - 2008.07.01 01:50:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: BloodBird on 01/07/2008 01:50:46
Well Lord Daerth, either CONCORD is full incompetent, and that seems a tad unlikely, or they had the back-ups blown to hell as well, in the confusion.

Or maybe they are not incompetent, just very, very dumb and arrogant enough to believe themselves omnipotent, so that they could not even imagine their HQ station being blown to hell; along with a big chunk of their fleet. Who knows, I suspect we will never really get to know for sure.

(Edit: arrrgh, typos.)

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.07.01 18:33:00 - [27]
 

This is an interesting conversation, but to nip the little concord thread in the butt, let me explain it to you.

CONCORD's only vulnerability was their belief that they were invulnerable. It took time for them to recover from the psychological shock of one of their norms being turned on its head.

That is all.


 

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