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NCTaark
Posted - 2008.06.26 14:20:00 - [1]
 

There are now the 10 attribute skills, plus one lonely little learning skill.

I am interested in a tier two LEARNING skill that maybe costs a lot of ISK (compared to other learning skills, 7-9 million ISK?) and would probably require a large training time multiplier (7 or 9?), but pays off with a 3% bonus to training speed, for a maximum of +15% at a training level of 5.

This could help close the gap between the very young players while allowing older players to diversify their skills or master others. If a young pilot trains his/her learning skills then adds a potential 25% speed bonus that would greatly help integrating young pilots into EVE. The issue becomes balancing against 400,000 Titan pilots.

Comments please.

Taark

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.06.26 14:37:00 - [2]
 

I'm a newer player and I have an element of sympathy but I have to say no to this.

Firstly, the skill times are there to require you to specialise, to pick a few roles to be good at, not all of them. They also tend to require you to experience various roles before you dive into the deep end (start with frigates, move onto cruisers, and so on).

Secondly, there is no end-game in EVE, and the total number of skills to level 5 would take something like 10+ years now. It's the journey that is important, not the destination.

Thirdly, your argument is fundamentally flawed. EVE should be balanced such that old or new doesn't matter. You can become effective at quite a few things quite quickly, a few percentage points here or there doesn't make that much difference. If you're attempting to allow new players to catch old players, this proposal does not succeed, for two reasons.

If you want new players to 'catch up', this assumes the older players don't just use this skill to extend that lead. On top of that, what do we do in two years time when the current crop of new players are 'ahead' and the new players want to 'catch up'?

Thanos Draicon
Wolf Pack Mentality
Blood and Steel
Posted - 2008.06.26 14:43:00 - [3]
 

Another month of grinding learning skills? No thanks.

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2008.06.26 15:03:00 - [4]
 

If there was no learning skills, then the ranks for existing skills would be less. TBH, more learning skills is a bad thing. If you want CCP to forever maxout everyone's learning skills, with some bonus to those who already trained it up, then that is something that is more intresting.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.26 15:17:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: NCTaark


This could help close the gap between the very young players while allowing older players to diversify their skills or master others. If a young pilot trains his/her learning skills then adds a potential 25% speed bonus that would greatly help integrating young pilots into EVE. The issue becomes balancing against 400,000 Titan pilots.

Comments please.

Taark


The problem is that it's the older players who would be the ones who train the skill up first, thus widening the gap.

Also, telling new players that they have to spend even longer training learning skills isn't going to enthuse them.

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.06.26 15:32:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: NCTaark

This could help close the gap between the very young players


No, no it wouldn't.

Learning skills are an unfun and unwanted waste of everyone's time to begin with.

If you think the game would be better with shorter train times, make that thread, and you might get more thumbs.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force

Posted - 2008.06.26 15:32:00 - [7]
 

Guys, guys, I think you're missing the point.
He's talking about the 12th skill in the Learnings tree, the second tier "Learning", granting an extra 3% (or just still 2%) to attribute values (just like the tier 1 learning grants 2% per level).

The most logical option would be to have it a rank 3 skill, costing about 3.15 mil ISK (3.5 mil base), having as prerequisite Learning IV, and granting an additional 2% per level to attributes.
Trained to L4 (takes about 2-3 days), it would pay off in around one month or so.

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.06.26 15:33:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Guys, guys, I think you're missing the point.
He's talking about the 12th skill in the Learnings tree, the second tier "Learning", granting an extra 3% (or just still 2%) to attribute values (just like the tier 1 learning grants 2% per level).



No, we knew exactly what he meant.

It's just that it is a really bad idea.

NCTaark
Posted - 2008.06.26 15:35:00 - [9]
 

I'm a middle aged pilot. and I am pretty sure that about a year ago there was something like 11 years worth of skills to train in EVE. So there is no shortage of upper limit.

I would train something like this to about LV3-4 because there are dozens of skill sets I am still interested in exploring.

If someone is not interested in additional training that is nothing anyone should care about let alone hold against you. But I would love the training boost because I want to do more with what I have. I would just like to have the option open to anyone to choose for themselves.

Frecator Dementa
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.06.26 15:47:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Deldrac
Originally by: Akita T
Guys, guys, I think you're missing the point.
He's talking about the 12th skill in the Learnings tree, the second tier "Learning", granting an extra 3% (or just still 2%) to attribute values (just like the tier 1 learning grants 2% per level).



No, we knew exactly what he meant.

It's just that it is a really bad idea.


why? you're not forced to train it

Cpt Jagermeister
United Systems Navy
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2008.06.26 18:22:00 - [11]
 

Oh god no. Here we go again with the "you're not forced to train it" crap. No you just fall further and further behind everyone else. Like starting the game 4 years later then everyone else isn't a big enough of a disadvantage. Every new player i encounter spends the first month or so training learning skills and perhaps a few other skills along the way. I know i sure did, and hated it, nearly quit but anyway.....

This would GREATLY widen the gap between new players and old because the older players who already have HAC's , HIC's etc. Already have maxed their training skills ( gunnery , etc) and will simply train these new skills faster ( +5 implants)and thereby further reducing their training times and widening the gap.

I do see your point though, maxed players will diversify, MID range players will catch up. But that doesnt work for the real new players.

And yes, good luck balancing that with cap ships. Attributes are much more important to the higher ranked skills...

I appreciate your idea but i'm afraid i have to give it a big thumbs down. Honestly i wish there were no damn learning skills.

NCTaark
Posted - 2008.06.26 18:38:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Cpt Jagermeister
This would GREATLY widen the gap between new players and old because the older players who already have HAC's , HIC's etc. Already have maxed their training skills ( gunnery , etc) and will simply train these new skills faster ( +5 implants)and thereby further reducing their training times and widening the gap.


In reverse:

First, No, if an older player can afford the +5s that far out strips the fractional increase I'm talking about.

Second, build into the system is diminishing returns for higher levels of training. So the "GREATLY widen the gap" as you put it becomes mute. if you train Battleship to 5 as an older pilot it will probably take you 35-50 days depending on your skills and implants, a younger pilot would be able to finish the learning skills to a reasonable level AND start training into cruisers and those weapons in the same time that the older pilot spends on Battleship 5.

Big deal, the older guys can either train multi racial ships (which coincidentally would place them again at the same level as the young pilots) or they train some long skill and the young pilot trains learning and is PvP capable before the older guy gets that additional 5% "whatever" from that fifth level train.

I think something like this would help modestly with the larger ships like you mentioned because if you have a base atribute of 20 and you get a 10% bonus from learning plus another 10%-15% from what I propose (lets say 20% bonus total) that means your result is about a 4 point increase from 20 to 24 on your attributes.

Learning skills don't just help the dedicated planning / skill nerds like me. They help everyone who plays and wants to plan their skills further then a few days.

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.06.26 18:54:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: NCTaark
First, No, if an older player can afford the +5s that far out strips the fractional increase I'm talking about.


Actually people with +5s would get more out of your uber-learning skill than those without them. The learning multiplier applies to implanted attribute points just as it does to natural points.

Your scheme would increase the effect of +5 implants from +5.5 up to +6.25.

Beaverid Tesu
Posted - 2008.06.26 19:56:00 - [14]
 

Any new learning skills are welcome in my book! ^^

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.06.26 20:22:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Cpt Jagermeister
Oh god no. Here we go again with the "you're not forced to train it" crap. No you just fall further and further behind everyone else.

At worst, you progress at the same rate (or at a similar rate).
However, percentually speaking, you get an ADVANTAGE as a new player in "catching up", percentage-wise, with the old players.
Quote:
Every new player i encounter spends the first month or so training learning skills

Then they're stupid. With the revamped system we have right now, there's absolutely no reason to go with anything but "all L4s" in the learnings, and that's done in two weeks tops.

Quote:
This would GREATLY widen the gap between new players and old because the older players who already have HAC's , HIC's etc.

Given how a lot of L5s are "mandatory" for advanced skills that are not even that great, and how L5s take almost 5 times longer than getting from zero to L4, that means every little PERCENTUAL gain means a huge actual performance difference gain.
Do you think T2 ships are all that great compared to T1 ships ? seriously, think again... other than specialist niche ships, they're not significantly better than the T1 versions, it only seems that way to you since you have much better support skills now.

Quote:
Already have maxed their training skills ( gunnery , etc) and will simply train these new skills faster ( +5 implants)and thereby further reducing their training times and widening the gap.

For something that takes 2-3 days to train, but boosts training speed by 8% (or even 12% if you go with the 3% per level version), at worst you can talk about older players getting L5 in it as opposed to not getting it at all. So, at worst, you're looking at the "older" player learning at 2%/3% faster comparatively... however, the lower guy just got a significant boost in training speed for minimal extra effort, which will allow him to bridge the gap between "useless" and "usefull" that much faster.
Sure, the older guy will finish his third L5 battleship or his second dreadnought L5 faster too, but who the hell cares ?


Raymon James
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.26 20:29:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Raymon James on 26/06/2008 20:38:28
Actualy the developers HAVE spoken on the topic repetedly

according to them the net effect of the leanring skills were entirely negative

1) it bascialy becomes the "first" skills learned meaning that players end up defacto frozen while their learning skills catch up. granted the "new player" experience has helped in that a lot of skills were added, but they have also talked about ways to "get rid" of the learning skills (either by auto granting full learning skills or allowing the skills to level up parallel to a non-learning skill) this has been seen as a bad thing by the devleopers because of comments in places that have public coments on MMOs you see coments about how your stuck with newbiskills for over a month while you learn the "learning skills"

2) all skills implimented SINCE then were placed 1 or more levels higher simply because they had to factor in the faster learning skills. Bascialy their Idea is that you have to choose how you specialise yourslef, not make it so that you can play the "flavor of the month" game every day.

Raymon James
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.26 20:36:00 - [17]
 

to be blunt I dont have a problem with the idea of them adding more points to the skill stats. but I do realise the problem from the developers point of view when it comes to adding new skills.

Raymon James
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.26 20:51:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Raymon James
Edited by: Raymon James on 26/06/2008 20:38:28
Actualy the developers HAVE spoken on the topic repetedly

according to them the net effect of the leanring skills were entirely negative




forgot the third and fourth point

3) even the fact that the old skills are able to be leanred faster is a negative because with the new skills being set higher than they would have been without the learning skills, the new skills ended up being a barrier to advancment.

4) the frustration factor of someone who thought they would be playing for a period of time and thus planned accordingly with their learning skills who leaves early (thus waisting time with learning skills) or late (why did I not train this learning skill 1 more level!)

Frecator Dementa
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.06.26 21:55:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Quote:
Every new player i encounter spends the first month or so training learning skills

Then they're stupid. With the revamped system we have right now, there's absolutely no reason to go with anything but "all L4s" in the learnings, and that's done in two weeks tops.



they're not stupid, they're obsessive-compulsive :P

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.06.26 23:20:00 - [20]
 

Sorry but I'm on the If there is ever a safe way to replace learning skills to do it list of people.

Like removing advanced learning skills and making implants go up to +10 replacing all current in-game implants with times 2 the number current.

so +5's become +10s

then it becomes part isk grind in which players would be able to earn them while learning the basic skills. So you could in a way get both at once.


 

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