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blankseplocked Protest to People Selling Labs
 
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happy
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.05.22 15:41:00 - [31]
 

just a few words that come to mind when i think of people hording lab slots.

Main Entry: 1cheat
Pronunciation: 'chEt
Function: verb
transitive senses
1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>
intransitive senses
1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly

Main Entry: 2ex·ploit
Pronunciation: ik-'sploit, 'ek-"
Function: transitive verb

1 : to make use of meanly or unjustly for one's own advantage

Baer Mearund
BM Industries
Posted - 2004.05.22 18:20:00 - [32]
 

I have already got a response regarding the labs situation. I won't quote here, but essentially they know this a problem, avenues are being investigated, however there is nothing solid on what will be done at the moment.

No matter how many posts you get on a topic, they're not going to say anything more than that, though they may go into it at more depth.

Imhotep Wade
Posted - 2004.05.23 06:23:00 - [33]
 

Yes, this is crap.

Basically the scientist career is nerfed. Find a new one. scrap your char, or find a different game to play. Thats like playing ultima or something as a fighter without a sword.

This has nothing to do with quality game play. If there are labs, CCP needs to make them easier to find.

Otherwise, lets get consistent; remove 75% of factories(manufacturer). remove 75% of reprocessing facilities(refiner). remove 90% asteriod belts(miner).

now tell me how that would make any sense?

Borunel
Posted - 2004.05.23 13:31:00 - [34]
 

The Scientist's career is nerfed anyway.

The only people who get any benefit from lab slots these days are big corporations who can afford battleship BPOs and ****ant small time hunting and mining corporations who think they should have a 'research department' so that they can make better BPOs -for themselves- to manufacture equipment -for themselves, thereby bypassing the whole economic chain.

I can guarantee you this much, the market for small time BPcs is very very limited and not very lucrative at all. And of course since new players can by definition be nothing but small time then people aren't complaining because of new player's difficulty but rather their own thwarted greed.

Lazy and greedy in themselves they don't want to pay 700isk for a widowmaker missile when they think that they can research a BP and then make them themselves for 500isk at the most. Hell why should they help anyone else along by paying a 200isk premium?

They don't understand the whole problem behind their way of thinking at all and probably never will see the hypocrisy in what they are saying. Why should lab-estate agents give those pigs any sort of a break at all when they have no intention of helping others themselves?

I will agree that labslots need to be made simply more available and that people need to stop selling them on this condition - to make things easier for new players so that they don't need to be forced out into 0.0 space before they are ready for it.

I don't agree that they need to be made more available and that greedy and explotative people need to stop selling them just so that you as isolationist players and corporations can be greedy and explotative in their stead.

And by the way there ARE a huge amount of lab slots appearing and disappearing in empire space everyday - its just that bone idle people really can't be bothered to look - well you do have an option, people are finding them for you and will point them out for a small fee - its simple and they are doing you a favour - I'd think you would be more grateful.

After all think of the money you selfish idiots will save when you start manufacturing your own ammunition so you can flip two fingers at the economy and cast manufacturers into penury right alongside researchers.



lordgod denny
Posted - 2004.05.23 14:48:00 - [35]
 

hey if you can make your own missles chaper then so be it... in empire i normaly buy my ammo... in 0.0 space the corp makes our own ammo because the preium is normaly alot more then 200k isk... then again we also sell things in empire. one of the benifits of capitalism is you can buy from the guy with the lowest price or say screw it im going to make my own stuff. or do with out it. if a corp wants to make there own ammo then good for them. unless they mine for themselves then they have to buy minerals. And they still probley buy their guns. if they make those too then they either have a even larger mineing wing or buy minerals along the way. even then they probley buy their own battleships or they buy a BPC. my point is by building your owns tuff your not messing up the econmy your not screwing anyone else.

Baer Mearund
BM Industries
Posted - 2004.05.23 15:37:00 - [36]
 

What I would suggest is to make more than you need. Not only does that mean you will tie up a factory rental slot (or three) for the full rental period, but you can release what you don't need onto the market to recoup your costs. For products like ammo this is not lucrative but it does bring in a steady trickle of income. Because someone ALWAYS wants to buy ammo ;)

Costamohgen
Posted - 2004.05.23 16:48:00 - [37]
 

I disagree with people hogging all the labs. We spend long hours training up our research skills, and are held hostage by ppl with no research skills?! I find it unfair, but yes it is a free market. IMHO there needs to be MORE lab slots available.

Baer Mearund
BM Industries
Posted - 2004.05.23 22:34:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Baer Mearund on 23/05/2004 22:37:39
As many folks have already said, adding more slot supply won't alleviate the problem of trying to find a slot - they'll be rented to death within a day of coming online. I'm right, aren't I?

I hate it when I'm right about these things :P

If you have something in place to combat the abuse of those slots then more supply will certainly help. That's why a free market economy is no good without some kind of regulation - the SCC.

Holi
Minmatar
Simplexion Ltd.
Posted - 2004.05.24 12:01:00 - [39]
 

One simple solution to the lab problems could be:

If CCP doesn't want to allow making profit by selling labslots, just limit the rentable number or labs to lab.operation skill lvl + 1 / player. This at least requires some other investment from the players part and therefor many lab-dealers would be out of business very soon.

If they want to allow making profit by selling labslots one solution would be to limit number of labs / player to 6 no matter what skills he/she has. This way it's the players choice wether he wants to use slots for BPO research/copy or just for making money by trading, but there is still a sane limit for the number of slots they can grab at once.

However, if CCP officially supports the trading of labslots, they should make an interface much like the trade window, where you can trade labslots. Currently trading labslots is not safe (in terms, that the buyer has no guarantee that the seller will actually sell the slot after the isk has been transferred and when they do it the other way around, there is no guarantee that the new owner will pay for the labs).

Labslots are currently blackmarket items, as they can't be sold trough safe channels Cool

Btw, there also should be a safe method to be able to rent your services as scientist to anyone who wants a BPO researched - altough there is the half-solution for this atm, that you as researcher pay the BPO's NPC price as collateral to the owner of the BPO, but it's not a perfect solution.

So, the lab/research system surely needs an overhaul, just like the hangar system (both corp and personal).
--
Holi

Baer Mearund
BM Industries
Posted - 2004.05.24 13:26:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Baer Mearund on 24/05/2004 13:31:51
I did outline something along those lines in the ideas lab but clearly people wanna talk about chargeable energy cannons more badly than how to fix labs Sad

Ki Shodan
Gallente
deep blue
Posted - 2004.05.25 13:12:00 - [41]
 

i dunno how it is with corp-lab-slots.

but i have lab operation at 5, i can use 6 slots.
to hold more then these 6 slots is nearly impossible over more then just a few days.
even holding these 6 slots is quite tricky, although i use them and between diffrent research jobs there only lies maximal 24h.
i have lost already 5-10 slots at that station and sometimes had a hard time with only 4 slots. but i have also regained them overtime, since the lab-system not only ***** with me, it messes with others, too.
so it is only a question of time until you get your free labslots. and you do not need to travel all over the empire. just check the researchstations near your operational base regulary and after a week or two you have your slot without paying exorbitant prices.

Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
Posted - 2004.05.25 15:42:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 25/05/2004 15:43:46
Originally by: Holi
One simple solution to the lab problems could be:

If CCP doesn't want to allow making profit by selling labslots, just limit the rentable number or labs to lab.operation skill lvl + 1 / player.



You hit it right on the head. Why should anyone be allowed to rent offices he can't use anyway? Now before someone comes whining with relocating, how about this:

When you find a slot somewhere you like but have your maximum number rented already, a dialog pops up, asking which of your old slots you would like to cancel. Current activity in this slot would then be cancelled and the stuff put into your hangar there.

By the way, 17 is just obscene. And "good use", you can use a maximum of 6. Unless you are including alts with research 5.

Neko Makai
Minmatar
Black Lance
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2004.05.26 04:04:00 - [43]
 

FYI, Pure capitalistic governments are destined to fall. Thats why they have the saving INVISIBLE HAND to keep the market steady.

Nafres Maelstrom
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.05.26 20:12:00 - [44]
 

LOL NEKO...its called a market economy knob.
and a poster a few up was correct a les affaire economy only lasts about 100 years before collapse,most modern nations,have what could be termed market socialism.

a command economy like what the communist countries had waas teh worst,and relatively shortlived in its pure form,heck even china has moved toward teh solcialistic version.

thye have known about the lab/factoryy issues since day one...notice any fix?..... a half hearted poorly thought out addition to existing that incorperated no expansion in the model....hmmm if tehy were marketing this after any real economic model folks,when labs became expensive,ie bought and sold,the governmental infrastructure would have built more to capitolize on the need.

Blame ccp not the griefers hording....and yes im looking for said research slots atm

Yanae
Posted - 2004.05.27 17:10:00 - [45]
 

If it were truly a market economy, competitors would be able to come along and offer a higher rent to the owners of the labs (not those renting it). It's not. What we have right now is a situation akin to tenants living in rent controlled apartments with no possibility of eviction. That, friends, is the opposite of free market.

Cell Satimo
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.05.27 22:21:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: WhiteTiger
Now why can you sell labs for a profit is a good question. The answer is that CCP so far hasn't bothered to make the NPC's the sell them semi-intelligent and adjust the prices and supply of the labs to match the demand. Right now the number of players continues to increase, increasing the demand for labs, while the npcs provide the same number of labs at the same price. This is basic economics, and the players have moved to take advantage of the dumb npcs.


This may change with the eventual introduction of player contructable labs. I say may, cause I would want a pretty well defended lab to place my BPOs in it.

Odaroff
Caldari
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2004.05.29 11:12:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Nafres Maelstrom
LOL NEKO...its called a market economy knob.
and a poster a few up was correct a les affaire economy only lasts about 100 years before collapse,most modern nations,have what could be termed market socialism.


Wow, market economies have knobs on them? I guess that's what they mean by a controlled market economy ;p

But seriously:

1.) it's laissez-faire capitalism

2.) There have been many instances of both laissez-faire economies and totally controlled economies that have lasted a lot longer than a mere century.

The Roman Empire was a laissez-faire economy up until close to the end (although some people maintain that it never ended, and that the Roman Catholic Church is now the governing body of the global Roman Empire).

Imperial China was a totally controlled economy (for the most part).


Dave Day
Amarr
Universal Freelance
CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
Posted - 2004.05.31 21:23:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Odaroff

But seriously:

1.) it's laissez-faire capitalism

2.) There have been many instances of both laissez-faire economies and totally controlled economies that have lasted a lot longer than a mere century.

The Roman Empire was a laissez-faire economy up until close to the end (although some people maintain that it never ended, and that the Roman Catholic Church is now the governing body of the global Roman Empire).

Imperial China was a totally controlled economy (for the most part).




What ARE you on about?

Enkai Takizawa
Posted - 2004.06.05 10:54:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Deadeye Blind

If you don't like it...don't buy one. It's as simple as that, but don't tell others how to play the game.


Which could be turned around to read: "If you don't like his attempt to rally people... don't participate. It's as simple as that, but don't tell him how to play the game" ;)

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2004.06.05 12:01:00 - [50]
 

Well I think I will wait a month...or two while you loose money on that station you have rented all the labs from...When the time is right I will sneak in and take one or two and pay rent to the station not you.


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