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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.19 21:46:00 - [31]
 

Quick, everyone act natural! I just noticed Mintal re-did that forum rules and Rule #3 has been highlighted.

Zephyr Rengate
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.19 21:52:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Quick, everyone act natural! I just noticed Mintal re-did that forum rules and Rule #3 has been highlighted.


There are rules in OOPE? no wai!

P'uck
Posted - 2008.06.19 21:52:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Quick, everyone get to the choppah!

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2008.06.19 22:15:00 - [34]
 

I thought Sweden was ment to be one of the more Liberal governments in the west.

Oh well at least they tell you, unlike the US government and probably the UK.

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.19 22:26:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: P'uck
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Quick, everyone get to the choppah!


defiler
Mad Hermit
Wayward Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.19 23:06:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: TimMc
I thought Sweden was ment to be one of the more Liberal governments in the west.

Oh well at least they tell you, unlike the US government and probably the UK.
We also have quite a lot of faith in our government, which isn't particularly odd considering how we've dodged most major conflicts in recent times... This is why laws like this can get passed with barely any news coverage unless a large group of dissidents stir up a world of trouble for them. "But surely the government does what's best for us, they would never do anything bad!"
Oh yes they would.

Samiloth Justinian
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.20 00:42:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Quick, everyone act natural! I just noticed Mintal re-did that forum rules and Rule #3 has been highlighted.


Well, the purpose with this thread wasn’t to create a discussion about political parties or ideologies. I believe the people are the ones to blame, not the parties. However, I realize that it might be hard to avoid politic discussion when posting personal opinions about things like this.

The thing is that I view this law as something truly horrible. I would go as far as to say that the government is in the process of turning its people into their enemy. Since the decision was made I keep asking myself how I can react, what I can do, to make some kind of difference.

Among the things I can do is to let people know about it. Sure, a lot of people will go “who cares/we can’t do anything/they will do it anyway/they already do it”, but the point of this thread is not that I want to debate and discuss with them to prove them wrong. I just want to inform people about something I find unreal and horrible, and hopefully a few of the people who reads it decides that they themselves should see if they can make a difference.

Michayel Lyon
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.06.20 01:03:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Samiloth Justinian
The thing is that I view this law as something truly horrible. I would go as far as to say that the government is in the process of turning its people into their enemy. Since the decision was made I keep asking myself how I can react, what I can do, to make some kind of difference.


Want to make a difference? Vote green in the next election. ugh

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2008.06.20 11:47:00 - [39]
 

once we have started to go down this road its close to impossible to go backCrying or Very sad

1984 is a lot closer then what a lot of ppl think

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.20 11:59:00 - [40]
 

In this day and age it's a requirement to monitor communications IMO.

I have no problems with a government hearing every single phone conversation I have. If I have something to hide, maybe it means I'm doing something wrong?

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2008.06.20 12:26:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Bhaal
In this day and age it's a requirement to monitor communications IMO.

I have no problems with a government hearing every single phone conversation I have. If I have something to hide, maybe it means I'm doing something wrong?



Define wrong.

P'uck
Posted - 2008.06.20 12:31:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: P''uck on 20/06/2008 12:31:26
Originally by: Bhaal
In this day and age it's a requirement to monitor communications IMO.

I have no problems with a government hearing every single phone conversation I have. If I have something to hide, maybe it means I'm doing something wrong?

I guess I know what I'M doing wrong:
I don't get off on feds listen to my dirty talk, for instance. If I'd be into that, I'd just do it in public, thank you very much.

At least then I'd have the choice. Right now it's pretty much a gamble.

And it's a sad thing that we have to come up with examples. It doesn't even matter. It's kinda crucial for humans to have something in their lives that only belongs to them and their loved ones.

If youre already on the next evolutionary level and reached a state of hivemind, more power to you, but the rest of us would like to reach that "we know what you think" state a BIT differently than by being stalked.

To put it simple: There's a bedroom, even in your phone calls, or on your harddrive.

Holy ****, i mean if you extrapolate that terrorism paranoia a bit further: let's just assume somebody figures out a way to scan your thoughts and all, and can always know how dangerous you are. hell, it cant be THAT complicated to find out what a human brain does when its planning massive death tolls. i BET theres a brainwave for that.

hey, why not upgrade our security cameras (do you still remember the days when nobody would have agreed to put cameras every-****ing-where?) with that new tech? while were at it, we COULD actually rig them to sentry turrets right away, but than it would sound like i would talk about skynet pulling a skynet, and thats not what im getting at.

anyway, where EXACTLY would you draw the line? or do you accept millions of little steps, that you dont notice, each on it's own, unless youre 10 yards away from that ledge, over a deep deep pile of bull****, and have to do your finest impression of "wile e. coyote"?

Kusha'an
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.06.20 12:45:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Bhaal
In this day and age it's a requirement to monitor communications IMO.

I have no problems with a government hearing every single phone conversation I have. If I have something to hide, maybe it means I'm doing something wrong?

Presumption of guilt = bad government. People are supposed to govern themselves, and government should exist at the pleasure and will of the citizenry, not the other way around.

FWIW, this is an excellent thread.

Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2008.06.20 12:45:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Bhaal
In this day and age it's a requirement to monitor communications IMO.

I have no problems with a government hearing every single phone conversation I have. If I have something to hide, maybe it means I'm doing something wrong?


Except you turn that around and all of a sudden you get BS about "national security" or "state secrets".

Let the transparency go both ways, I say.

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.20 12:52:00 - [45]
 

I'm just someone who welcomes security cameras, and wiretapping of international calls.

If a Federal agent wants to listen to me talk dirty to my GF, I could care less tbfh.

Define wrong? Well, if you're on the phone with someone, and you're afraid to say something with the feds listening, that kind of speaks for itself, does it not?

I'm all for using technology to monitor, suppress & manage human aggression towards one another. I welcome i-dent chip implants to track everyone on the planet, etc.

It's quite obvious by now that you can't rely on human morality to bring us out of the dark ages, so to technology must we turn.

It's a 2 way street however, the public should also have the right to access all conversations between government officials about everything that does not actually pertain to national security. And that is the hard part, most governments use that claim to cover-up anything they don't want the public to know.

The government/citizen relationship has to become more transparent, technology can do what trust in fellow man has failed to accomplish for millennia.

So yes, I welcome such policies.


P'uck
Posted - 2008.06.20 12:55:00 - [46]
 

you do know that putting a government (and thats basically what you want to do here) into unquestioned and absolute power probably isnt a good idea?

basically youre saying the individual doesnt need privacy but the government does.

and you really dont see any problems with that?

Kusha'an
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.06.20 12:57:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Kusha''an on 20/06/2008 13:00:49

Originally by: Bhaal

Define wrong? Well, if you're on the phone with someone, and you're afraid to say something with the feds listening, that kind of speaks for itself, does it not?

I'm all for using technology to monitor, suppress & manage human aggression towards one another. I welcome i-dent chip implants to track everyone on the planet, etc.

FAIL at definition of wrong. In fact, I'm LOL right now.

You mean you're for allowing humans to suppress other humans using technology. That's called tyranny. And who manages the managers? Hmm?

By the way, since I'm correcting all this nonsense that you're saying, I might as well burst another bubble of yours - these i-dent chips have been discontinued because they cause CANCER.


P'uck
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:02:00 - [48]
 

just for the record, i think hes just trying to troll the trotzkis out of the bushwork.

Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:06:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Bhaal

It's a 2 way street however, the public should also have the right to access all conversations between government officials about everything that does not actually pertain to national security. And that is the hard part, most governments use that claim to cover-up anything they don't want the public to know.


See, this is the crap I'm talking about. **** national security. If the government can track everything I do, then I should be able to track everything they do, up to and including military/intelligence information.

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:11:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Bhaal on 20/06/2008 13:12:18
Originally by: P'uck
you do know that putting a government (and thats basically what you want to do here) into unquestioned and absolute power probably isnt a good idea?

basically youre saying the individual doesnt need privacy but the government does.

and you really dont see any problems with that?


You actually think you have privacy now?

That is a huge laugh.

What I want to see is more transparency. Right now, the FBI or CIA can listen to everything I say, or read everything I type if they really want to.

I would like this to be more of a two way street. I also want it to be a deterrent for people who decide they want to try to blow something up or kill other humans for some frivolous religions reasons or some other lame purpose.

Me personally, I have no problems with what Sweden is doing, I think it's a good policy, and something I would have voted for. Sorry you don't like my opinions, but they are what they are, and obviously I'm not alone, as it just got voted in...

And as a citizen, I want to be able to have access to everything that comes out of the mouths of the politicians who run my government. There should only be a limited numbers of conversations that contain true national security implications. So yes, I believe if the government has this ability, and believe it's a good thing, it's only good if the public has it as well. Elected officials re public servants. But you must realize not all government info can be dispersed throughout the populace.

Sure, maybe the first round of i-dent chips cause cancer, but that's no reason to stop trying to perfect the technology.

None of you have true privacy at this point in our civilization, I hope you're not delusional enough to think you do?

P'uck
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:12:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Bhaal
You actually think you have privacy now?

where did i say that?

Kusha'an
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:17:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Kusha''an on 20/06/2008 13:17:41


@Bhaal

The government you describe has no checks on it to prevent it from oppressing and/or enslaving and/or murdering its populace. You really need to study some world history, including what Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and H!tler did when given absolute power. Hundreds of millions the last century were slaughtered by their own governments because, well, because they could.

Learn from history or you will repeat it.

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:17:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: P'uck
Originally by: Bhaal
You actually think you have privacy now?

where did i say that?


You implied such when you asked if putting all the power in the governments hands was a good thing (At least I personally took it that way). They have the power now. You have ZERO privacy if they don't want you to have any.

At least Sweden is telling their people what's going on. It's a good first step for the transparency & two way street that is needed between government officials, and those that the serve.



Kusha'an
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:18:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Kusha''an on 20/06/2008 13:20:36
Originally by: Bhaal

At least Sweden is telling their people what's going on. It's a good first step for the transparency & two way street that is needed between government officials, and those that the serve.

ROFLMAO at the naivete. This is not transparency on the part of the gov, it's arrogance. "See, we're doing this, and you can't stop us."

How about the gov showing some transparency and allowing cameras and recorders in gov offices and hallways? That would be a good first step. All I see are first steps being made by the civilians.

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:24:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Kusha'an
Edited by: Kusha''an on 20/06/2008 13:17:41


@Bhaal

The government you describe has no checks on it to prevent it from oppressing and/or enslaving and/or murdering its populace. You really need to study some world history, including what Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and H!tler did when given absolute power. Hundreds of millions the last century were slaughtered by their own governments because, well, because they could.

Learn from history or you will repeat it.


You're not understanding me.

That's the kind of crap we need to avoid in the future.

Right now, my government has the ability to spy on whoever they want, including all of it's citizens. I think if it were a more open policy, and the public could also "spy" on the people they elect, eventually, nothing but actual military intelligence should be kept from the public.

Whether policies like this get voted in or not, governments will use the tech to spy on the people. Sweden coming out and making the policy public, makes sense, and is the right way to go about it IMO.

Chances are, whatever country you are from in this forum, your government is spying on it's citizens whether you like it or not. Would you not prefer a more transparent solution than to just wonder who they are spying on?





Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:25:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Kusha'an
Edited by: Kusha''an on 20/06/2008 13:20:36
Originally by: Bhaal

At least Sweden is telling their people what's going on. It's a good first step for the transparency & two way street that is needed between government officials, and those that the serve.

ROFLMAO at the naivete. This is not transparency on the part of the gov, it's arrogance. "See, we're doing this, and you can't stop us."

How about the gov showing some transparency and allowing cameras and recorders in gov offices and hallways? That would be a good first step. All I see are first steps being made by the civilians.


You don't think it's a better first step than my government hiding the fact they are spying on everyone? I certainly do...

P'uck
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:30:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Bhaal
eventually, nothing but actual military intelligence should be kept from the public.

And this little hook can be abused in abundance...

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:33:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: P'uck
Originally by: Bhaal
eventually, nothing but actual military intelligence should be kept from the public.

And this little hook can be abused in abundance...


Yes, I stated that is the hard part.

However, as tech advances, governments will use it regardless of what ppl like you think or feel about it. Getting policies out in the open may not seem like a first step, but IMO, it is.



P'uck
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:43:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Bhaal
Yes, I stated that is the hard part.

And "people like you" don't seem to understand that is the impossible part.

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.06.20 13:46:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Bhaal on 20/06/2008 13:51:29
Originally by: P'uck
Originally by: Bhaal
Yes, I stated that is the hard part.

And "people like you" don't seem to understand that is the impossible part.


And people like you don't understand that you can never stop governments from spying on their citizens.

So just keep the status quo eh? Yeah, that's a good plan...

Lets do a little test.

Everyone name your country, and whether or not you think they have the ability to spy on your phone conversations, and then tell us whether or not you think they have done so, or are currently doing so.

Lets see just home many naive ppl we have here.


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