open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Something fundamentally wrong with battleship insurance prices
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic

Farrqua
Minmatar
In Igne Morim
Posted - 2008.06.14 20:36:00 - [31]
 

The insurance is basically for the younger players that fit a basic load out so they can get back into the game with out ragequiting. (which happens any way due to their own stupidity usually)

Once you are able to fly ships that require a lot more expensive mods nad hull classes to be effective, you should at the point in the game to make the isk back to replace your hull and the mods/equipment that will at times cost more than the ship itself.

Removing insurance will most likely hurt the noobs that are trying to get into PvP with in the FW arena atm.

As far as Suicide gankers, that is a different separate subject that has been beat around quite a bit.

So really when an older player that fits his/her ship with the mods/rigs to take full advantage of the hull, the insurance payout is pretty small and the loss is fairly substantial.

But then you can argue the point of fly what you can afford. Which actually a good rule to follow.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2008.06.14 21:27:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: Qui Shon
That's ridiculous. Of course the problem is with insurance. Having fixed insurance prices would be a faulty mechanic no matter what the mineral prices were.
A fixed market would be bad, but having insurance payouts based on values that can be manipulated by players would be far worse.


But since insurance is the same for all, how would one party hope to benefit from such manipulation?

Isn't such manipulation guarded against pretty easily anyhow? Perhaps not enough to make it impossible, but with delayed and averaged indicators to base changes on, and the sheer volume of ships being built/destroyed, I'd think manipulating insurance indicators would prove too large a task even for the big alliances to undertake.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.06.14 21:40:00 - [33]
 

Well if you weren't a veteran player with probably hundreds of millions of isk would you still want insurance gone?

Funny because a Dominix with 0 items fit and 0 drones doesn't perform well I hear. Fit a BS with full T2 and you are looking at near 20M, fit it with 3x rigs and you are looking at over 50M, thats enough of a loss to make it meaningful to me. If people want to fit their ship with t1 stuff and have a very poor performing ship then why shouldn't they have that choice?

Tappits
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.14 22:25:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
Battleships "should" be expensive, they represent end game ships. They should cost at least 30 mil, considering how useful and powerful they are.


Battleships are end game? what you been smoking?
get new alt skill up for 2 months fly BS (are you endgame at 2 months?)(yes noob but still flying a BS)

Cruisers were uber endgame
Then Battleships were uber endgame
then thay made CAP ships and thay were end game
then suppercaps (moms titans) were end game (every one has a mom now makes me sick)
nest end game ship is well...we will have to see

BS are not end game
and yes you can die in a domi for 3 mill + fittings but i bet 80% of them that die in eve end up costing more

Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
Posted - 2008.06.14 22:34:00 - [35]
 

So as a new player you are condemned to fit ****ty mods because you cannot insure them, being left with useless ship anyway. Thats what you said. So why no insurance for mods?

Insurance totally screws mineral prices and makes concord response to suicide ganks irrelevant. How more can you screw the game than twisting the economy and security cornerstones? There should be better income at entry levels and less pressure on moving into bigger ships for missions.

Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.06.14 22:51:00 - [36]
 

ITT: people who instead of saying "oh, this is weird, i wonder how i can make profit using it" are saying "oh, this is weird. OMG END OF THE WORLD CCP DO SOMETHING CHANGE THE WHOLE GAME FOR EVERYONE"

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2008.06.14 22:52:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Forge Lag
So as a new player you are condemned to fit ****ty mods because you cannot insure them, being left with useless ship anyway.

Hah. I guarantee you that a disposable fit is FAR from useless. People have this idea in their heads that tech 1 gear is useless and somehow their setup will be ten times better with tech 2 gear but that's just not the case. The difference of effectiveness between tech 1 and tech 2 gear is not that huge and gangs of disposable ships are still lethal. In a protracted war, using cheap fittings means you can afford to replace your losses more than the enemy, which gives you a distinct strategic advantage.

Oakrayven
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2008.06.14 22:56:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Tappits
Originally by: Ephemeron



Battleships are end game? what you been smoking?


eh if you run missions to "pay" for your PvP then currently BS ships are the endgame. you realy dont need/cant use a bigger ship in level 4s.

Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.14 23:03:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Farrqua
The insurance is basically for the younger players that fit a basic load out so they can get back into the game with out ragequiting. (which happens any way due to their own stupidity usually)

Once you are able to fly ships that require a lot more expensive mods nad hull classes to be effective, you should at the point in the game to make the isk back to replace your hull and the mods/equipment that will at times cost more than the ship itself.

Removing insurance will most likely hurt the noobs that are trying to get into PvP with in the FW arena atm.


This topic is about battelships, younger player shoundn't jump into battelships.
It's ok if the ensurance system had favoured smaller ships, but this problem is most urgent for battelships, so the "protect the newb" argument doesn't apply here.

I can kill a gang of cruisers in a t1-fitted cruise raven that costs me a few mil alltogether, even if those cruisers are t2 fitted. For using such a tool like a battelship, i should pay more. But i understand why people want insurance, many come from WoW, where it doesnt't cost anything to be killed except rep and drinks maybe, and they want eve to be the same: a system without steep death penalty.
The problem is, it drives the excitement out of game, no adrenaline anymore, no fun when you know you didn't inflict any harm by killing a dominix.

Today i lost a mighty rokh battelship, but guess what, it was cheaper to lose it than my crow+rigs. Pvp without high stakes for the biggest ships is kinda boring.

Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.14 23:28:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
I can kill a gang of cruisers in a t1-fitted cruise raven that costs me a few mil alltogether, even if those cruisers are t2 fitted. For using such a tool like a battelship, i should pay more. But i understand why people want insurance, many come from WoW, where it doesnt't cost anything to be killed except rep and drinks maybe, and they want eve to be the same: a system without steep death penalty.
The problem is, it drives the excitement out of game, no adrenaline anymore, no fun when you know you didn't inflict any harm by killing a dominix.

Today i lost a mighty rokh battelship, but guess what, it was cheaper to lose it than my crow+rigs. Pvp without high stakes for the biggest ships is kinda boring.



First, what you described above is highly situational. If there are 3 or 4 gank-plate rax's on you, my money is going to be on you losing your ship. If its like 2 noob fit, noob piloted osprey's, then of course you will win.

If you take that T1 fitted ship and pit it against a T2 fitted ship of the same class, I'm going to bet that the T2 fit ship is going to come out on top. In order to be competative, you are going to have to spring for expensive mods Just because the ship is insurable doesnt mean that there is no monetary loss associated with the ship loss.

By your example: Your crow is a T2 ship and thus had no real insurance. Now if that ship were fully insurable, would you just be able to shrug off the loss? It really is only as expensive as the mods that you put on it!

Same with a Rokh. When I lose a Rokh, after insurance, Im looking at a net loss of about 150 mill isk in Mods and Rigs. This could be even more if the ship were faction pimped (like your crow).

Again, in conclusion: Ships may be highly disposable when fit with T1 gear, but in order to be conpetative on a 1-to-1 ratio with the enemy, you need to spring for better mods. This is where the true loss comes from. Think of the purchase price as a "barier of entry", while the cost of the ship is actualy the cost of how you fit it.

Farrqua
Minmatar
In Igne Morim
Posted - 2008.06.14 23:57:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Farrqua
The insurance is basically for the younger players that fit a basic load out so they can get back into the game with out ragequiting. (which happens any way due to their own stupidity usually)

Once you are able to fly ships that require a lot more expensive mods nad hull classes to be effective, you should at the point in the game to make the isk back to replace your hull and the mods/equipment that will at times cost more than the ship itself.

Removing insurance will most likely hurt the noobs that are trying to get into PvP with in the FW arena atm.


This topic is about battelships, younger player shoundn't jump into battelships.
It's ok if the ensurance system had favoured smaller ships, but this problem is most urgent for battelships, so the "protect the newb" argument doesn't apply here.

I can kill a gang of cruisers in a t1-fitted cruise raven that costs me a few mil alltogether, even if those cruisers are t2 fitted. For using such a tool like a battelship, i should pay more. But i understand why people want insurance, many come from WoW, where it doesnt't cost anything to be killed except rep and drinks maybe, and they want eve to be the same: a system without steep death penalty.
The problem is, it drives the excitement out of game, no adrenaline anymore, no fun when you know you didn't inflict any harm by killing a dominix.

Today i lost a mighty rokh battelship, but guess what, it was cheaper to lose it than my crow+rigs. Pvp without high stakes for the biggest ships is kinda boring.



Easy dude. I was just making an observation rather than a friggin' argument.

And the part you did not quote OFC is the part I said "you should only fly what you can afford."

Now as the issue about young players "should" not be getting into a BS is absolutely true. I agree with 100%. But trying telling a n00b that. I will bet you that almost every new player that gets into this game goes straight for the biggest damn thing there is.

Now for the n00bs getting into FW, I can see a lot of butt hurt posts and ragequits if insurance is yanked. But thats their problem not yours or mine.

As far your Crow. Well yea t2 polly carb x2 will set you back 400mil. Not counting the snakes, and faction gear you would put on it. But how you fit your ships is your problem.

If insurance is taken a way all together I could really careless.

And btw, I have never played wow or any other MMO.

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.15 00:05:00 - [42]
 

There is a huge difference between removing Insurance, and removing insurance payout for anyone who dies while flagged by Concord.

Etruscus
Posted - 2008.06.15 00:06:00 - [43]
 

If I was to design an insurance payout system in eve, I would have one of two systems:

1.) Where you make a lump sum payment to initiate the contract, and through a set of calculations a cost of insurance ("COI") is applied to the account, deducting that portion from the original payment. This daily COI would factor in such things as what systems the individual was in and for how long, corp, alliance, and other data that are easily pullable from the existing database. The insurance contract would remain valid until the cash value of the contract reached zero. The contract can be kept in force by making another lump payment. These payments can be as large or as small as the purchaser desires.

2.) Where the insured pays a daily, weekly, or monthly, flat premium but the proceeds vary depending on the risk profile of the insured through an average of the last series of days (five or ten, for example).

The problem with the current system is that the cost of insurance relative to the maturity payment of the insured does not incorporate enough risk. Ideally, the above mentioned contracts should be provided by the free market.

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.06.15 06:39:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Sergeant Spot
There is a huge difference between removing Insurance, and removing insurance payout for anyone who dies while flagged by Concord.



On a successful gank, not really.

Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.15 09:06:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 15/06/2008 09:12:29
Insurance is broken, The problem is that it is not dynamically linked to the Market and thereby acts as a regulator on it by introducing absolutes (min cost of ship/materials from reprocessing it) into the game.

Insurance was created as far as i can recall reading the forums to offer a buffer to new players from catastrophic loss in the early months of the game, this makes good sense business wise, but it needs tweaking to reflect player driven effects.

Mineral prices it could be argued are kept artifically high by Insurance being avaiable at a set price, yes you get the morons that moan there is a base price given in the item database, but that was set many years ago with 10,000 on the server if that, anyone who thinks it should be set in stone is plainly a FOOL.

Insurance does give a boost to PvP by reducing its effects and while the ebil part of me says do away with Insurance another saner more rational part says link it to the market place as an average between both universal ship price and its universal component basket price so you can't profit from quick term fraud (buying to reprocess to profit), i.e:
Premium Insurance ( $100 ship cost + $70 mineral basket cost to make ship ) / 2 = $85 payout, make the /2 a /3 or /4 for different cover types, not a too complex to code, the Universial Price Data being generated once per day

(Insurance payout could also be linked to have the sec status multiplier 1.0 to 0.1 used in the equation to link where your destroyed with the payout, low sec is riskier so less payout).

Lord Evangelian
Gallente
The White Mantle
Malum Exuro
Posted - 2008.06.15 10:06:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Blind Man
remove insurance

This, I never insuare my ship...since I loose them rarely, and if I do the insuarance never amounts to what I spend on the ship...plus Getting the money for a new ship is the fn part of the game...Insurance is like lives in games, they should have been stoped asoon as th eplatformer died...

Ral Ulgur
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.15 10:14:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Blind Man
remove insurance


This.

Or maybe Dr Eve, the economist could find some price index based on mineral and component prices, allowing a balanced insurance, also for t2 ships.

Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm
G00DFELLAS
Posted - 2008.06.15 11:01:00 - [48]
 

the problem isnt insurance but that t1 gear is too effective / t2+ is not effective enough.

usually t2 gear is 20% better than unnamed t1 mod but costs 5-100 times as much.

if people fit t1 mods on t1 ships when they have the money and skills to be able to use t2 easily then there is something wrong.
that wrongliness lies in the small difference (~20%) between t2 and t1 mods. it makes a difference in 1v1 or maybe up to 5v5 but how often do you see that happen? and even then strategy (player skill) is more important than how much isk you trew at the fittings. a t1 blasternplatethorax will still rip a t2 fitted stabber if it can catch it and any t1 fitted stabber can run from a t2 fitted thorax if it isnt stupid.

on the other hands there is t2 ships which usually offer special abilities over t1 that make it really worth getting them. exaples are the (heavy)dictors with their bubbles or force recon ships that can warp cloaked.


so for insurance to beb ack in line t2 has to be a "must have" in competetive flight. so boost it by another 30% or give it unique features (prolly only allow t2 to be overheated?)

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2008.06.15 11:05:00 - [49]
 

Plaese dont touch insuranse. It is fine now. Insuranse is fur fun in Eve.

Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
Posted - 2008.06.15 11:07:00 - [50]
 

You forget that when you first step into a ship you pay insurance as an isk sink, this fluctuates depending on your ship class.


Pages: 1 [2]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only