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Papa Gwan
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.06.12 02:28:00 - [1]
 

Wasn't sure where to ask this, guess this is as good as any ^_^ Here's for you EFT gurus!

What does EFT(Eve Fitting Tool)'s Defense rating signify? I notice this build I'm looking at a fitting that says "88 sustained and reinforced efficiency", but I have no idea what this mean. Is it how much DPS my shields will hold before breaking?

Thanks!

Aegis Myrielle
Posted - 2008.06.12 03:48:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Aegis Myrielle on 12/06/2008 03:50:19
Sustained DPS is how much damage your ship can take every second and not be in danger of running out of capacitor energy. This typically involves manually activating and deactivating repairers/boosters as needed. Reinforced DPS is how much damage you can take with all hardeners and repairers running non-stop. There's a time noted near that number that shows how long you can maintain a reinforced tank.

EFT tanking figures use whichever tank is stronger - shields or armor. It won't show both, since if it can break the stronger of the two, the weaker one won't do much good.

A note: DPS tanking figures in EFT aren't entirely accurate, since you can't direct what kind of damage it's calculating against. I think it's using equal parts of all damage types, but I'm not positive.

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.06.12 06:28:00 - [3]
 

EFT, from my understanding, tends to use averages. So it assumes that shields tanks better against Explosive, while Armor tanks EM better.

So if you concede that each damage type does 25% then you know one is better or the other. Since this rarely, if ever, comes into play it's to be taken with an Icelandic-sized grain of salt.

But with some experience many pilots will know when one type is better than the other for a given type of encounter. And this doesn't even have to take into account many fittings.

It's just Armor is better for X, Shield are better for Y, and here are the mitigating circumstances where it's wrong.

Mankirks Wife
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.06.12 07:22:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Aegis Myrielle
Edited by: Aegis Myrielle on 12/06/2008 03:50:19
Sustained DPS is how much damage your ship can take every second and not be in danger of running out of capacitor energy. This typically involves manually activating and deactivating repairers/boosters as needed. Reinforced DPS is how much damage you can take with all hardeners and repairers running non-stop. There's a time noted near that number that shows how long you can maintain a reinforced tank.

EFT tanking figures use whichever tank is stronger - shields or armor. It won't show both, since if it can break the stronger of the two, the weaker one won't do much good.

A note: DPS tanking figures in EFT aren't entirely accurate, since you can't direct what kind of damage it's calculating against. I think it's using equal parts of all damage types, but I'm not positive.


If you right-click on shield in the defense box, you get a little pop-up menu where you can adjust the damage distribution it uses to calculate your defense numbers. This is very useful if you're setting up your tank to only tank certain kinds of damage (for missions) or if you just want to see how it fares against certain damage types vs others.

Another important tank number is your effective HP - which is how much damage (with the current damage distribution settings) you can take before you pop assuming you don't rep / regenerate at all, which is very important for highsec anti-gank tanks or fleet fights in 0.0 (though I don't have much experience with those)

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2008.06.12 08:10:00 - [5]
 

You need to think a bit. You effective HP might be very high, because you can tank forever, but in practice your tank might fail in seconds as it can only tank a moderate amount of damage at a time. So lowering you effective HP by fitting another repairer might be the smart thing to do. EFT does not think, it just calculates. You need to do the thinking.

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2008.06.12 10:20:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/06/2008 10:20:19
sustained means the amount of DPS you can take (with the given damage types) with your tank running while not running out of cap. So if you have to toggle your tank once in a while because your cap can't hold up that lowers your sustained tanking since there's now 'gaps' in your repairing.

Reinforced means how much damage you can take with the repper(s) running at full steam. So if you're cap stable (you can run your tank forever) your sustained and reinforced numbers will be exactly the same.


On a related note; please do forget about the effective HP, it's a number that bears no relation to actual ingame stuff whatsoever since it favours passive tanking (numberwise). Apart from that using a full damage type spread will give you a false indication anyway. It's easy in PVE since you know what kind of damage you'll be taking but for PVP it's quite different.


Haywoode Jablome
Wormhole supervisory and Investigation team
Blanket Men
Posted - 2008.06.12 11:18:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Mankirks Wife
If you right-click on shield or armor in the defence box, you get a little pop-up menu where you can adjust the damage distribution it uses to calculate your defense numbers. This is very useful if you're setting up your tank to only tank certain kinds of damage (for missions) or if you just want to see how it fares against certain damage types vs others.


Put this in your config.ini where you placed eft:

DamageProfile=Gurista Kin/Therm,0,570,3504,0
DamageProfile=Angel Exp/Kin/Therm,480,0,719,3058
DamageProfile=Sansha Em/Therm,1945,1598,0,0
DamageProfile=Serpentis Kin/Therm,0,1627,1320,0
DamageProfile=Blood raider Em/Therm,613,570,60,0
DamageProfile=Gallente federation Kin/Therm/Em,25,781,1127,0
DamageProfile=Minmatar republic Exp/Em/Kin/Therm,615,310,815,1633
DamageProfile=Amarr empire Em/Therm,1204,1349,0,0
DamageProfile=Caldari state Kin/Therm,0,795,944,0
DamageProfile=EoM Kin/Therm,0,618,1718,0
DamageProfile=Mercenaries Therm/Kin/Exp/Em,90,634,424,108
DamageProfile=Rogue Drones Exp/Kin/Therm,86,91,281,964

This is for missions and says nothing about what to encounter in PVP offcourse.




Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2008.06.12 18:03:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Aegis Myrielle
A note: DPS tanking figures in EFT aren't entirely accurate, since you can't direct what kind of damage it's calculating against.

You can tell it exactly what kind of damage to calculate against, by setting up custom damage profiles. Granted, you might not always know exactly what the damage will be, but EFT's tanking numbers are entirely accurate based on the information you feed into it.

One thing I find tends to help for PvP is to have 4 profiles that are pure EM, pure thermal, pure Kin and pure Explosive. Have a look at your tanking figures for all of these individually, and the lowest one represents the worst-case scenario - you will always tank at least that much regardless of the composition of incoming damage. Of course, depending on the situation you might favour some profiles over others; if you're fighting an enemy that uses mainly Gallente ships, a 50-50 kin-therm split is likely to be a very solid point for comparisons (but do pay attention to Exp damage for those droneboats...).

Originally by: F'nog
EFT, from my understanding, tends to use averages. So it assumes that shields tanks better against Explosive, while Armor tanks EM better.

It doesn't need to assume anything - it knows exactly what resistances your ship has, and exactly the proportion of the incoming damage types, so it is able to work the tanking figures out accurately. Also, I'm pretty sure it calculates the figures for both shield and armour tanks and then displays the stronger, rather than guessing which will be better and calculating it. (Though if you're not dual-tanking this is hardly an issue though). It doesn't give figures for active hull tanks though, I've tried. Smile

Originally by: Louis deGuerre
You need to think a bit. You effective HP might be very high, because you can tank forever, but in practice your tank might fail in seconds as it can only tank a moderate amount of damage at a time. So lowering you effective HP by fitting another repairer might be the smart thing to do. EFT does not think, it just calculates. You need to do the thinking.

I'm not sure you've grasped what EHP actually means - if you can tank forever, the amount of buffer you have is irrelevant. EHP is a measure of how long you can last while taking damage faster than you can regenerate it. That said the rest of your post is spot on - EVE gives you the figures, but only you can decide whether 5000 extra EHP is better than another 200 DPS tanked. It all depends on your situation, the expected duration of the engagement and the expected incoming damage levels.

Originally by: Tzar'rim
On a related note; please do forget about the effective HP, it's a number that bears no relation to actual ingame stuff whatsoever since it favours passive tanking (numberwise). Apart from that using a full damage type spread will give you a false indication anyway.

EHP bears a lot of relation to ingame stuff - buffer-tanked Megas and Geddons absolutely rely on these figures to ensure they can stay alive longer then their enemy. An increase in EFT's quoted EHP is an increase in the amount of time you can survive while not running any reppers/boosters. And as for the damage types, see above - go pessimistic and look at your worst-case scenario if you want guarantees.


EFT gets a lot of bad press because of people overheating officer mods to assess balance between ships with it. The important thing is that the numbers it generates are very accurate and very useful, but as with all statistics, one or two do not tell the whole story. You have to appreciate what they mean, how to use the tool to get the correct numbers out, and then take them in a realistic context. For comparing like-with-like (e.g. is another plate better than another EANM on my fit?) EFT is great. For comparing different ships with different styles - not so.

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2008.06.12 19:42:00 - [9]
 

That's why I said "since it favours passive tanking". What that means it that you can not make a setup purely based on number because a passive tank will always have higher numbers but is not always the best choice.

Apart from that, for PVP you're mostly interested in thermal and kinetic, that's the most dealt damage. tanking for EM (shield) or explosive (armor) might boost your numbers real high but in reality it's not the way to do it, IF you don't know what you're going to fight.

Papa Gwan
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.06.12 22:47:00 - [10]
 

Oh wow, thanks for the replies all! That was what I figured it meant, however I was not sure if it calculated resistances or strikes, etc.

Thanks a bunch!


 

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